Welcome to Doom9's Forum, THE in-place to be for everyone interested in DVD conversion.

Before you start posting please read the forum rules. By posting to this forum you agree to abide by the rules.

 

Go Back   Doom9's Forum > Announcements and Chat > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 9th September 2010, 20:02   #61  |  Link
Doom9
clueless n00b
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 10,579
@Bi11: I like your court analogy... it probably makes more sense.
Quote:
However, some of the rules governing the powers of a judge are intentionally overly general in order to allow for flexibility of powers in good faith (e.g. moderator rule 4 – “blow up in our faces”, moderator rule 11 – “side of caution” which contradicts taking proactive measures to "fish-out" downloaders of pirated content (which imo seems futile since the uploaders are the real 'criminals'). This means the head judge necessarily interprets those rules on a case-by-case basis, because they are too vague to be interpreted objectively.

Thus, the head judge is free to bend or even break those rules for a judge without the user having any recourse but to accept the ruling and associated consequences.
You're right on the money with that. However, isn't that exactly how things run in the real world? Judges are usually appointed, not elected - same with our moderators. There is no recourse against a decision by the highest court - same here with administrative decisions. You will also not get the highest court to reverse a ruling just because you stage a protest in front of the court.
And, many laws are very much subject to interpretation. Especially new laws are often tested in court, and courts will come down on different sides of the issue. Until a matter gets decided by the highest court instance, you don't really know how the law is to be interpreted.

Quote:
Dark Shikari and neuron2 make friends and all is well again with the world. Then one cloudy day...

n2: x264 is bs. (or some other opinion not based on facts)
ds: you're talking bs.

Now what?
I don't think that will realistically happen. If it does, ds should lodge a complaint with me and I'd ask neuron2 to apologize and I fully expect he would. If not he'd be fired. Moderators can't go around starting fights.. they're supposed to moderate and mediate conflicts, not start them.

Quote:
"Established members of the forum should be given the benefit of the doubt whenever conflicting statements are made between a moderator and one or more Established members. Thus, the onus is on moderators to prove their statements correct in face of continued protests by Established members, until almost all Established members involved in the debate are satisfied with the proof.
Non-established members are required to prove their statements correct if they continue to protest against the moderator's statements, until moderators, or at least Established members, are satisfied with the proof."
Interesting idea. I do however wonder if that's really feasible (for one, people live in different timezones, and not everybody can be expected to be visit within a given amount of time.) . Do you know of any forum that does things like that?

Overall, I yet have to see a forum that is run as a democracy- I'm not saying there are none, but I'd like to see a sizeable working forum where all associated costs are split in between the members (like taxes), and where moderators and admins are elected by popular vote. And even in a real world democracy - do you really get a say into most of the issues? Did you get to vote on whether your country ratify the WIPO treaties (source of DMCA style legislation)? Did you get a say on changes to copyright law over the last 20 years (including extensions of protection periods and the DMCA in all its flavors), did anybody get to vote no whether software patents are a good idea? Will we get to vote on the ACTA? Even the Swiss didn't get to vote in their DMCA flavor - and they have a direct democracy. In a parliamentary democracy, you only get to not vote for a politician in the next election.. and you got no say in what laws that politicians passes in the meantime.

Quote:
Were the rules formally written before or only now due to the mess that that occurred?
as per the first post, they did exist, but in shorter form. Much of it was informally discussed (mods generally bring up issues for review and we discuss handling of the situation internally.. I then decide how those things should be handled in the future).

Quote:
So you make a decision based only on your own needs; you think only about yourself. What if a megui user/evangelist defends megui in stax's thread and got banned, would you turn a blind eye?
Couldn't the guy who got striked / suspended (note that outright bands will only happen for obvious spammers, duplicate registrations and people who get suspended for the second time) defend himself? Nowadays, with each strike warning, you get the following piece of information with it
Quote:
If you have any questions regarding strikes in general, this specific strike, or have an objection, please refer to our FAQ items on strikes

Note that this warning has been dispatched from an anonymous account - you must follow the mechanisms outline in the FAQ to contest a strike.
. So, nobody can claim they didn't know they had the right to an appeal, and how to make such an appeal. Likewise, nobody can claim he/she didn't ruin their chance to appeal.
If I'm a friend with our imaginary guy, I might ask him to start the appeals process and about the outcome. But if I disagree with the outcome, there is not much I can do. Since the admin is the final instance, if he has made his ruling, it's final. Public protest will not help - but it will only get me in trouble (rule 17).

Quote:
Being given something for free is not a reason to hold your tongue.
Shouldn't it be common courtesy though that you respect that free doesn't owe you anything? I mean.. that's exactly how it works with all this free (open source or not) software. You accuse the makers of screwing up, you bitch about them not helping you, and you'll be at the losing end of a potentially very ugly fight. Try your luck on many mailing lists for open source software - and suddenly you'll feell that n00bs are treated extremely welcome in this place.

Quote:
Doom9 & Mods: Do you really think there is some kind of "control" at all, when you are not able to answer questions
I don't understand what is so hard to understand about me rescinding strikes. What does it mean if I don't let a strike stand? let me give you a hint.. I'm ruling agains the moderator. The member will be given an apology, and since he was the one that was wronged, that should be it. You do not deserve an apology if nothing was done against you, and if you need to take offense with everything, that's your problem. To get back to the MeGUI issue - if I'm just a regular member, is there really a need for me to take offense? I might disagree strongly, but there's no reason for me to feel personally attacked - so if the ruling is that the strike was inappropriate, I'm not owed an apology, be it private or public.
As I said before, and that's a core charater value where I'm from, I'm not going out stab my moderators in the back for the slightest mishap. I refuse to make a public statement calling moderator action wrong every time I rescind a strike. It is still my forum, and I will not betray my core beliefs. You can disagree with that all you want - but it is my prerogative, and I think it is highly inappropriate that you go to a foreign land and demand that people throw away pat of their culture and instead start doing it your way. I consider it common courtesy that you respect the way things are done if you are at somebody else's place, regardless of whether you'd do it the same or not.
__________________
For the web's most comprehensive collection of DVD backup guides go to www.doom9.org
Doom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2010, 20:06   #62  |  Link
Astrophizz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 184
Doom9, how would the appeals process work well when it might be two weeks or longer before you return? I know you have a life and take vacations, etc. I'm not criticizing you for taking breaks, just saying it complicates matters.
Astrophizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2010, 20:11   #63  |  Link
Doom9
clueless n00b
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 10,579
Quote:
Doom9, how would the appeals process work well when it might be two weeks or longer before you return? I know you have a life and take vacations, etc. I'm not criticizing you for taking breaks, just saying it complicates matters.
Good point... underscores the need for super moderators who could serve as an intermediate instance in case I'm not available for an extended period of time. In the meantime, unless I can convince Swede to act on my behalf when I'm not around, I don't have a solution at this point.
__________________
For the web's most comprehensive collection of DVD backup guides go to www.doom9.org
Doom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2010, 20:20   #64  |  Link
Sharktooth
Mr. Sandman
 
Sharktooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Haddonfield, IL
Posts: 11,768
i have... "promote" some users to moderators (ask the mods for possible canditates or make a thread).
after that make an internal votation and promote a couple of mods to supermods.

Last edited by Sharktooth; 9th September 2010 at 20:57.
Sharktooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2010, 20:48   #65  |  Link
HJRodrigo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom9 View Post
as per the first post, they did exist, but in shorter form. Much of it was informally discussed (mods generally bring up issues for review and we discuss handling of the situation internally.. I then decide how those things should be handled in the future).
Thanks for the reply, but I already knew rules existed. Sorry, I was not being very specific. I meant rules that would have prevented this from happening. I was curious if they already existed in written form and if they did then DS's contention that N2 broke a moderator rule was true. I don't know if DS was refering to a previously existing rule or a rule recently created due to this situation.
HJRodrigo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2010, 20:59   #66  |  Link
Doom9
clueless n00b
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 10,579
Quote:
I was curious if they already existed in written form and if they did then DS's contention that N2 broke a moderator rule was true. I don't know if DS was refering to a previously existing rule or a rule recently created due to this situation.
The rule in question, number 8, was not formally part of the moderator rules. Something along the lines "if you get under personal attack, hand the thread off to another moderator" had been brought in a private discussion in the moderator forum. Those informal rulings in discussions on how to handle a thread should be followed (every moderator has to visit the moderator forum after all.. that part has always been in the mod rules), but it's easier if everything is put at one place.
It's a bit convoluted, I know.
__________________
For the web's most comprehensive collection of DVD backup guides go to www.doom9.org
Doom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th September 2010, 21:17   #67  |  Link
HJRodrigo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom9 View Post
The rule in question, number 8, was not formally part of the moderator rules. Something along the lines "if you get under personal attack, hand the thread off to another moderator" had been brought in a private discussion in the moderator forum. Those informal rulings in discussions on how to handle a thread should be followed (every moderator has to visit the moderator forum after all.. that part has always been in the mod rules), but it's easier if everything is put at one place.
It's a bit convoluted, I know.
Thank you for the clarification.
HJRodrigo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 01:25   #68  |  Link
Guest
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 21,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doom9 View Post
The rule in question, number 8, was not formally part of the moderator rules. Something along the lines "if you get under personal attack, hand the thread off to another moderator" had been brought in a private discussion in the moderator forum..
I'd like to remind you all that I called in 3 other mods in compliance with the guidelines in force at the time. Doom9 was one of them.
Guest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 01:34   #69  |  Link
Astrophizz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 184
Then it's a good thing there will probably be more mods soon. As I remember no other mods showed up (unless they were doing things but not posting).
Astrophizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 02:58   #70  |  Link
Sharktooth
Mr. Sandman
 
Sharktooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Haddonfield, IL
Posts: 11,768
indeed. if neuron2 tried to contact 3 different mods and had no answer then he has much less responsibility in what happened.
Sharktooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 04:28   #71  |  Link
woah!
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 435
i only have 1 thing to say really, this forum without neuron2 as a mod the last little while, would be a spam infested slag feast.... i dont know the guy at all, but the good stuff he does here, sure as hell outweighs some ego's around here...
woah! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 05:47   #72  |  Link
Doom9
clueless n00b
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 10,579
Quote:
Mean: Show the deleted posts again so that all of us can take part in investigation what the thruth was...
I believe I've found a way to piece it all together. It will take some time though (say a day) as the forum software has gotten more powerful over the years when edits are concerned, but unfortunately, the new functionality is a lot less transparent when it comes to restoring things.
__________________
For the web's most comprehensive collection of DVD backup guides go to www.doom9.org
Doom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 06:06   #73  |  Link
Guest
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 21,901
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharktooth View Post
hagbard it's not physically possible. posts where moved from the original thread to the thread moderation. hence the record keeping was lost...
No that's not true. All the timing information is present. But like a small puzzle it has to be reassembled. Fortunately it's a very simple puzzle; even Doom10 members could figure it out.
Guest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 06:45   #74  |  Link
Astrophizz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 184
Nice nice little goading insult there

Last edited by Astrophizz; 10th September 2010 at 06:48.
Astrophizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 06:52   #75  |  Link
Guest
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 21,901
I'm glad you noticed. Consider it a little pushback for the relentless tag-team attacks on me here from you guys, not to mention the vile attacks on me and Doom9 over at your place.

A little dry wit spices up the day, don't you think?
Guest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 07:09   #76  |  Link
Astrophizz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 184
I have an account there (under the same name) but I can't say I'm more active there than here so I won't claim to be an established member of their central crew. I did make a statement there that you might disagree with on some level but I didn't insult you. I think people said things there in retaliation for not being able to discuss the subject here until recently - that is until this thread that seems to be excluded from rule 17.

I saw most of the post "puzzle pieces" though while they were still in their assembled state and I share some sympathies with some people. Recent actions have eased my concerns a bit though and I'm looking forward to an expanded mod team.
Astrophizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 07:31   #77  |  Link
Guest
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 21,901
@Astrophizz

You sound like a fine chap. Send me an email and I'll give you a free license to my licensed tools.

Your good will buys you priority access to me over IRC, email, and the forum.
Guest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 08:05   #78  |  Link
Bi11
Architect
 
Bi11's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 57
Doom9,
Thanks for the willingness to discuss these matters with members. I know there are administrators on other boards who completely ignore members, yet some of those boards still somehow manage to thrive.

I wrote a long response but in the end I realized I was just pulling straws. You can find my ramblings here: http://paste2.org/p/982560

Hopefully your new rules and changes will foster healthy respectful relationships between moderators and members of this community-driven forum.

Last edited by Bi11; 12th September 2010 at 16:39.
Bi11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 08:18   #79  |  Link
kypec
User of free A/V tools
 
kypec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SK
Posts: 826
Quote:
Originally Posted by neuron2 View Post
@Astrophizz

You sound like a fine chap. Send me an email and I'll give you a free license to my licensed tools.

Your good will buys you priority access to me over IRC, email, and the forum.
[JOKING]Now, this sounds to me like bribery in public! Are you recruiting your counter-DS army or what?[/JOKING]
kypec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th September 2010, 09:10   #80  |  Link
Astrophizz
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 184
Haha, well as a bit of a noob I hold neuron2 and DS in fairly high regard for the software they work on. I'm not in any army - mainly because I'd rather not fight. There are better things to do on the internet
Astrophizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:38.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.