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Old 12th September 2019, 11:39   #21  |  Link
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Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
Not sure what's going on . I should mention I'm on Resolve 15 still, because I'm in the middle of few projects, and I never upgrade in the middle of something
I only have the free version of Resolve 16. So far I've only tried a 3840x1600 lossless clip. FWIW, it has no problem with the clip if it is encoded with a QP or CRF of 1.

And when I say it doesn't work, I mean the import function doesn't work, nor will it show up in the media browser if I pick the folder containing it whereas the lossy versions show.
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Old 17th October 2019, 16:59   #22  |  Link
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Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
1) Did you need truly lossless ? Very high bitrate AVC such as x264 CRF or QP 1 intra or short GOP's is going to be 99.9% lossless, significantly higher PSNR/SSIM than Prores HQ or even Prores 4444XQ

2) Physical uncompressed AVI's still work in Resolve using v210 (10bit 422) and UYVY (UYVY) configurations

3) AVFS frameserving "fake" AVI works with YUV422P10, but only with vapoursynth , because of the enable_v210 = True switch (not available in avs+ )

RGB30 also works, also for avs+ (ConvertToPlanarRGB(matrix="XX").ConvertBits(10)
) but you might have to interpret the clip attributes as full range depending on how you have resolve project and timeline settings set up .

The command line AVFS that you need to use is a modified version and bundled with Vapoursynth. You can download the "portable" version and extract the avfs.exe to use with avisynth if you don't want to install vapoursynth
We need MOV to be added to AVFS, but no one wants to take such a task. MOV is not as easy as AVI I assume.
With AVI only v210 and r210 will work most likely.
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Old 12th August 2021, 16:41   #23  |  Link
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Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
--qp 1 will give you larger filesizes /less loss than --crf 1

Here is some sample data from a native UHD 10bit422 source (it's very clean, more easily compressible, you can tell from the results because ProresHQ typically scores ~ 45-55db on slightly noisy sources )

ProresHQ (ffmpeg)
psnr_avg:68.73 psnr_y:67.46 psnr_u:69.74 psnr_v:71.49

x264cli --crf1 --keyint 1
psnr_avg:73.20 psnr_y:70.83 psnr_u:78.08 psnr_v:79.68

x264cli --qp1 --keyint 1
psnr_avg:82.08 psnr_y:79.72 psnr_u:86.44 psnr_v:89.33

x264 Intra will give you higher quality at a given bitrate, at the expense of higher seek latency compared to Prores or DNxHR or Cineform (--qp 1 will yield higher quality than even at cineform filmscan2)

But with x264 you have the option to use short GOP's to significantly reduce the filesize, while still keeping higher quality than Prores , DNxHR, Cineform .

Or you can tweak it to perform faster using fast decode options at the expense of quality, or tune it in other ways, etc..

But the resolve export side is quite limited - you don' t have access to x264 or various options. You're right - uncompressed 10bit UHD is no fun, but that's almost your only option for getting lossless material back out

A fairly common workflow people use is AAF/EDL/XML import into resolve and export that back into their editor. It's basically a type of frameserving. But avisynth/vapoursynth do not support it Maybe one day...

Another lossless import/export option that people use with resolve is EXR . It's usually used for higher end workflows. Virtually all formats (YUV, subsampling, any bitdepth, RGB) can be converted back/forth losslessly with EXR float . But you need vapoursynth because it can import/export float formats and do lossless colorspace transforms properly (avs+ currently cannot import/export float) . 16bit half float is all that is required for most sources or consumer formats. If using EXR piz compression, they are only slightly larger than typical 16bit PNG, but some types of sources are actually smaller than if using 16bit PNG (content dependent). But that's still going to be much larger than a --qp 1 encode, but smaller than uncompressed UHD 10bit422 or 420. And some people don't like using image sequences
But x264 adds synthetic grain, no? (should test again with --no-psy). So obviously it has a higher psnr rating. No way ProRes is gonna lose with almost twice the bitrate (vs crf1).

Last edited by takla; 12th August 2021 at 16:45.
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Old 12th August 2021, 18:38   #24  |  Link
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Originally Posted by takla View Post
But x264 adds synthetic grain, no? (should test again with --no-psy). So obviously it has a higher psnr rating. No way ProRes is gonna lose with almost twice the bitrate (vs crf1).

Adding synthetic "anything" will penalize your PSNR scores. Adding something is a form of "noise"; a deviation from the original. So that will usually lower your Signal to Noise ratio.

The compression ratio will always be better for x264 intra vs. prores , but the ratio will vary on different sources. You will find some where the difference is not as large, on some even larger. Remember, that was a very clean source (just look at the inflated PSNR values, a more typical range would be maybe 45-55db), so those results are probably not typical of "regular" videos. More typical results on average - prores might need 1.25-1.5x bitrate for similar quality compared to x264 intra . Or use short 1/2 sec GOP's, Prores might need 2-2.5x the itrate for similar quality

The editing performance (low scrubbing latency) will always be better for prores vs. x264 (even with --tune fastdecode --keyint 1)

--tune psnr will generally increase the PSNR score at a given bitrate, and decrease the bitrate at any qp or crf. But since the bitrate changes at any qp or crf when you use different settings - you also have to do multiple encodes and plot RD curves to compare and see trends. Or change the qp or crf until you get a similar bitrate to prores, then you can compare directly)
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avisynth, resolve

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