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Old 11th June 2003, 02:00   #1  |  Link
AchtungAffen
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Japanese subtitles in SSA?

Hi, I was working on an SSA script wich I wanted to hardsub via virtualdub into an avi, when I found the following problem.

I was doing the karaoke part and decided to put not only the lyrics of this anime opening in romaji but also in japanese, but I found that Substation alpha can handle only ANSI but not Unicode, wich is required for the japanese characters to stay in the text file. But worst! I found the subtitle filter I'm using (subtitler 4.2 or something) in virtualdub (AC3) also can't handle unicode!!

So, what should I do to perform this? Do I need to use another program wich isn't Substation alpha and the subtitler filter? Isn't there any other chance?

BTW: Since this is my first post and couldn't find any info like this on these forums or on the net (perhaps I don't know how to search for it), I'll ask 3 more questions:
1.- How can I do more effects in substation alpha, like fades?
2.- How do I use the 'code' tag in substation alpha? What does it do?
3.- What is 'Advanced Substation Alpha'? Where can I get it?

Thx!
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Old 11th June 2003, 02:18   #2  |  Link
Schultz
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I don't know much about the Program Substation Alpha but i do know that you can use textsub from the vobsub package at http://www.gabest.org/ And use Either SubResync to edit your subs or Gabest has integrated subResync into MPC which you can get at http://www.sf.net/projects/guliverkli which allows you to work with the subs while the video is playing.. and they all support Unicode if you are on Win2k/Xp
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Old 11th June 2003, 02:31   #3  |  Link
AchtungAffen
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Ok, then I'll use those progs to work with unicode (still, I can do that with notepad too! I have win2k). But tell me, wich filters do I need then to add the subs with virtualdub, if the subtitler filter I use can't deal with unicode?
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Old 11th June 2003, 10:35   #4  |  Link
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The TextSub filter in the VobSub package at www.gabest.org will add the Subtitles into VirtualDub you will see it after you install the VobSub package.. Also it comes with docs on Advanced SSA for the new commands etc. in the docs dir of the install.
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Old 11th June 2003, 19:09   #5  |  Link
AchtungAffen
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Oh great! I just downloaded the full vobsub package. I'll let you know when I try it out. Thanks a lot!
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Old 11th June 2003, 21:48   #6  |  Link
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in order to enter japanese text in an ssa script, you have to enter it in Shift-JIS and select the correct font encoding.
ex: {\fe128}BBBvH

hope this help
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Old 11th June 2003, 23:45   #7  |  Link
AchtungAffen
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Is it always {\fe128}? I'm really not sure how to work with this Japanese IME. How do I know if I'm using Shift-jis or EUC?
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Old 12th June 2003, 09:59   #8  |  Link
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You can try JWPce (http://www.physics.ucla.edu/~grosenth/jwpce.html) to edit/copy/past your japanese text...
It's really easy to use and you can easily select your output format when you copy text and then paste it in SSA...
{\fe128} is used to tell SSA to use Japanese Subset Font. So IMHO, it's always {\fe128}.
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Old 12th June 2003, 14:10   #9  |  Link
Liisachan
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Re: Japanese subtitles in SSA?

Quote:
Originally posted by AchtungAffen
Hi, I was working on an SSA script wich I wanted to hardsub via virtualdub into an avi, when I found the following problem.

I was doing the karaoke part and decided to put not only the lyrics of this anime opening in romaji but also in japanese, but I found that Substation alpha can handle only ANSI but not Unicode, wich is required for the japanese characters to stay in the text file. But worst! I found the subtitle filter I'm using (subtitler 4.2 or something) in virtualdub (AC3) also can't handle unicode!!

So, what should I do to perform this? Do I need to use another program wich isn't Substation alpha and the subtitler filter? Isn't there any other chance?

BTW: Since this is my first post and couldn't find any info like this on these forums or on the net (perhaps I don't know how to search for it), I'll ask 3 more questions:
1.- How can I do more effects in substation alpha, like fades?
2.- How do I use the 'code' tag in substation alpha? What does it do?
3.- What is 'Advanced Substation Alpha'? Where can I get it?

Thx!
textsub filter which comes with VobSub can handle Unicode.
You can just type everything in UTF-16 with BOM in SSA
OR-type it in Shift_JIS and use {\fe128}--but in this way
you cannot use, say Friench and Japanese at the same time.
So, if you want to use Shift_JIS , you may want to make 2 SSAs,
one for French and the other for Japanese in the above example, and use a subbing filter doubly.

As for Karaoke, I would time with romaji then edit SSA with a plain editor so I can change Romaji into Kanji, because SubStationAlpha is likely to destroy Double-byte chars, (Mojibake) ^^;

oh BTW: you could even use "RUBY" in Karaoke kanji...

[PS]
1 test something like {\fad(300,200)}
2/3 read doc in the folder "Gabest"
[/PS]
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Old 13th June 2003, 23:59   #10  |  Link
esby
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Of course you can find a way to do japanese subtitle with textsub,
but i'm more wondering about the point in doing that,
because unless you are able to read japanese fluently,
the karaoke 'in jap' in the text is just candy for the eyes
And will add no more...
(I'm thinking to the typical exemple of fansubbing group putting kanji/romaji and western letters...)
Of course, if you are japanese and feel to do a true karaoke,
that's another story...
esby

PS: of course if you are aware of this, disregard what i said...
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Old 14th June 2003, 01:24   #11  |  Link
Liisachan
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Quote:
Originally posted by esby
Of course you can find a way to do japanese subtitle with textsub,
but i'm more wondering about the point in doing that,
because unless you are able to read japanese fluently,
the karaoke 'in jap' in the text is just candy for the eyes
And will add no more...
Yes. I know how you feel... Not only Karaoke...Most (not all) fansub translators don't know Japanese things so well, and mistranslate at least 2 or 3 lines par each ep, which sometimes makes me sad.

Regardless, what's wrong with having "eye candies"?

Quote:
(I'm thinking to the typical exemple of fansubbing group putting kanji/romaji and western letters...)
Of course, if you are japanese and feel to do a true karaoke,
that's another story...
My 1st language is japanese, but I dont usually put Karaoke in Japanese, only in Romaji. Maybe, those who do _not_ know Japanese are likely to feel Japanese letters to be somthing wonderful. for me, it s nothing but boring, daily things.

...anyways, the original question was technical: "Is it possible to use JA in SSA?" this is a good question to ask, right?
and the answer is YES: not only Japanese, but Korean, Polish, Hungarian... whichever, as mentioned in previous replies by a few ppl.

multisub note in 8 languages
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Old 14th June 2003, 16:33   #12  |  Link
AchtungAffen
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Yes, it's a total eye-candy. But also can perform several other functions.

For example, I've been studying japanese for over 2 years. Although I still don't know enough as to handle myself completely without any help, like subs, one help the eye-candy rendered me was in memorizing kanjis. I've learnt up to 500 of them, still I remember less than 50. But with eye candy I can excercise (because I'm still not ready for newspapers or books...couldn't find many beginners books also).

And sometimes, it lets you know if they translated the song right, or at least if the romaji is done right.

Nyways, its just something nice to see, and also means you put more effort in the fansub process, and perhaps a little o' love too.
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Old 16th June 2003, 06:06   #13  |  Link
unmei
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lo
@lisa-chan : the "multisub note in 8 languages" is wonderful
i think i need to talk to you once about UTF8 and USF (need help
where can i reach you ?

[shameless_spam]
back on topic:
USF might be interesting for you guys. "unicode" and layout possibilities. Sadly you cannot currently import it into matroska but it will be a matroska native subtitle format makeing your subs look like ASS and soft subbed at the same time.
[/shameless_spam]
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Old 16th June 2003, 07:12   #14  |  Link
Liisachan
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Well, of course Matroska will be nice in itself,
but since Karaoke is CPU-intensive, hard-subbing has its forte too,
and hence, AVI and/or OGM are still usable (and more stable atm)
anyhow, Japanese in SSA is possible, and the windows code page for Japanese is Shift_JIS, not EUC-JP nor ISO.
Though, probably using Unicode (UTF-16) will be the safest.

Quote:
Originally posted by unmei
lo
@lisa-chan : the "multisub note in 8 languages" is wonderful
i think i need to talk to you once about UTF8 and USF (need help
where can i reach you ?
umm i m no expert^^; that note is multilingual just because my friends in various language areas kindly translated it. if you need help on USF, how about visiting USF - Universal Subtitle Format ? There are quite a few experts there. (I sometimes make a post there too, but not so often. )
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Old 16th June 2003, 12:13   #15  |  Link
unmei
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hmm yeah,
thing is this place is rather dead and all the people there i can reach directly on #matroska channel - except you (why aren't you there?? , and ChristianHJW told me you were sure a reference when it comes to japanese with subs (jap. as the interesting special case for the general "need MBCS"

UTF-16 ? AFAIK USF is only UTF-8 and nothing else, therefore i have to deal with those freaking "is it one or two byte for this char?"

i would already be glad if you could put the release (i'm going to commit soon) thru a intensive test
(i have asian support and some sort of IME, but im not convinced this makes my comp behave like a vanilla asian comp :s)
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Old 17th June 2003, 00:16   #16  |  Link
Liisachan
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Quote:
Originally posted by unmei
all the people there i can reach directly on #matroska channel - except you (why aren't you there??
I was in that chan once or twice, and I'm going to be there again when I have time. But I am not a real developer, I am just a subber and that's why i m interested in new subbing possibilities--S_TEXT/UTF8, USF, etc.

Quote:
UTF-16 ? AFAIK USF is only UTF-8 and nothing else, therefore i have to deal with those freaking "is it one or two byte for this char?"
AchtungAffen asked about SSA, not USF.
And I answered "You can just type everything in UTF-16 with BOM in SSA" etc. I was not talking about USF.
IMO, to make multilingual subs in SSA, UTF-16 LE BOM is the safest encoding to use. btw: UTF-8 is not one-or-two byte... it s 3-byte chars especially for Japanese.

Quote:
i would already be glad if you could put the release (i'm going to commit soon) thru a intensive test
(i have asian support and some sort of IME, but im not convinced this makes my comp behave like a vanilla asian comp :s)
Excuse me, but what do you mean "the release"? As for USF...I once made a feedback, Explanation for Arabic Fix for USFV100_sample.usf
I had also made Unicode Hebrew Click Keyboard and Unicode Thaana Click Keyboard to test R-to-L languages in USF. But these are too off-topic here. I hope we can talk in a proper place, like USF - Universal Subtitle Format .

Needless to say, I'd like to see Japanese subs correctly (as that is my first language) and I m going to help anyone with subbing in Japanese, as long as I have time, like in this thread. Thank you.
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Old 18th June 2003, 05:33   #17  |  Link
unmei
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-i'm sorry i misunderstood you concerning the UTF-16, i was probably reading from bottom to top or something
-"The release" i was talking about is my own program and therefore i didn't realize no-one would know what i'm talking about as my head is truely stuffed ith it atm.
-kay, this really off topic - i'll try to remember the address of the usf forum
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Old 20th June 2003, 00:26   #18  |  Link
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Re: Re: Japanese subtitles in SSA?

Quote:
Originally posted by Liisachan
oh BTW: you could even use "RUBY" in Karaoke kanji...
oh really? is it a manual method or some kind of technique (double filter, etc.), or is it using a built-in filter?
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Old 20th June 2003, 01:13   #19  |  Link
Liisachan
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Subs with Rubies

Quote:
Originally posted by Rasqual
oh really? is it a manual method or some kind of technique (double filter, etc.), or is it using a built-in filter?
In SSA, it s manual and physical
Code:
Dialogue: Marked=0,0:00:00.52,0:00:07.53,Kanji,,0000,0000,0000,Karaoke,{\K20}FOO{\K23}BAR{\K25}BAZ{\K25}QUX{\K0}
Dialogue: Marked=0,0:00:00.52,0:00:07.53,Ruby,,0000,0000,0000,Karaoke,{\K93} {\fs20}{\pos(370,570)}{\K74}ruby{\K19}
* The line for Ruby Base is a common karaoke line. The line for Ruby texts is fontset by using \fs (for smaller fontsize) and \pos (physical positioning)

I hope USF, which is XML, will support RUBY structurally, like in XHTML 1.1 or CSS3
It'd be cool if you could write in this way
Code:
<karaoke><k t="2000"/>
    FOO BAR <ruby><rb>BAZ</rb><rt>baz</rt></ruby> QUX QUUX!
</karaoke>
RUBY-structure is not only for Karaoke but more general.
For more information, could you check this memo?
If you can read Japanese, there's a small guide for rubied Karaoke in SSA in my site.
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Old 20th June 2003, 22:01   #20  |  Link
ChristianHJW
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Quote:
Originally posted by unmei
-"The release" i was talking about is my own program and therefore i didn't realize no-one would know what i'm talking about as my head is truely stuffed ith it atm.
unmei,

lets test the tool inside the matroska team first and then start a new thread about it here in this forum if we feel it could be presented to public ... just my 2 cents, its your tool and you're the boss ... ...

EDIT :

Liisachan, i am very sad you dont find the time to join us in our channel more often, there was much better behaviour there usually if a real Lady like you was present ...
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