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Old 1st June 2006, 09:41   #201  |  Link
Teegedeck
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Actually that was my mistake. I was too sloppy and overlooked that [edit:] the parameter 'LumiMasking' seems to be deprecated; I should have set 'AdaptiveQuant' to 'false'. Strange, as AdaptiveQuant doesn't seem to be an encraw input option.
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Old 5th June 2006, 00:56   #202  |  Link
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questions about preset for anime(XviD 1.1 final):
i encode an episode good detail Basilisk DVD with different settings of QPel(not recommend in your preset), GMC and Cartoon mode with 1st pass only. B frame 1/1.0/1, constant Q2, H.263 quantization. Trellis, VHQ1, VHQ for B, chroma optimization.

from the 1st pass result in the XviD status, with QPel on, bitrate increase about by 1.8%, it tends to code more I frame and reduce total number of P and B frames;with GMC on, bitrate decrease by1.2%; with Cartoon mode on, bitrate incredibly decrease up to 4.1%!

that is, with QPel only, you should produce the largest filesize and possible the best detail(theoretically), and with GMC and cartoon mode on, you can get the smallest filesize at the same quant(but in principle, GMC is very implementation dependent, cartoon mode definitely hurt details too).

my question is, do XviD 1.1 change a bit in this point or even make my knowledge outdated?
question in another perspetive: does XviD do bits saving with GMC and cartoon mode on(for this good detail anime) in way with quality degradation?

Last edited by Valeron; 5th June 2006 at 03:56.
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Old 5th June 2006, 08:14   #203  |  Link
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The effects of encoding features on bitrates you have found are well-known and true. (If you did only a first pass, I assume that you did a zone-based first pass like described in the presets? Otherwise you wouldn't see any differences because Qpel and GMC aren't used in the standard 1st pass.)

Qpel makes for 1-2% bigger files, GMC saves about 0.5% (and is very slow), cartoon mode saves about 4%. As there is visually hardly anything to gain from Qpel in anime, and as the savings from GMC usually are very small and make encoding much slower, these are not used in the preset. Cartoon mode makes for astounding savings and thus delivers overall better quality in two-pass, so it is used.

No, cartoon mode never hurt any details in my tests. If this is more than a gut-feeling from your side, please come forward with screenshots to prove it (remember; only two-pass results are valid for the comparison).

See here for some screenshots I took a while ago.
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Old 5th June 2006, 15:10   #204  |  Link
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@Teegedeck:
i can hardly tell the differences between the two sample you post~
but the feedback from my friends are vary

i'll stick to cartoon mode off for whatever i think very good detail source(i would like to pay 4% more bits to avoid anything unpredictable), but for most not so good detail DVD, i'll leave it on.

but for Basilisk, there's so many rainning scene, it's hard to encode, maybe zone encode will help me out
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Old 5th June 2006, 17:49   #205  |  Link
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That conscientious and certainly better than blindly saying 'cartoon mode is no good'.

This whole cartoon mode debate that we once had on the forum always struck me as funny. Isn't it strange how some people don't feel that cartoon mode is good for anime while they relentlessly denoise all detail to death, anyway? And how people used to be afraid of detail-loss because of cartoon mode in XviD and now have absolutely no bad feelings about using x264 with deblocking set to '0' which equals total destruction of any detail? ;-)
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Old 6th June 2006, 01:18   #206  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teegedeck
That conscientious and certainly better than blindly saying 'cartoon mode is no good'.

This whole cartoon mode debate that we once had on the forum always struck me as funny. Isn't it strange how some people don't feel that cartoon mode is good for anime while they relentlessly denoise all detail to death, anyway? And how people used to be afraid of detail-loss because of cartoon mode in XviD and now have absolutely no bad feelings about using x264 with deblocking set to '0' which equals total destruction of any detail? ;-)
,sir

that's why i only apply nothing more than convolution3d or even serve cleanly with only "MPEG2Source" and stick to XviD for my anime dvd backup. why denoise so much, i need the original dvd but not a reproduced one, right?

i have to state, i didn't say cartoon mode is not good, for my eyes it doesn't get rid of details/noise like AVC codec generally do. i'll somehow consider it a superior solution. nevertheless not everyone(mostly) would like to watch anime with that kind of noise/detail.

PS: the two sample you post is very static scenes. in PRINCIPLE they would not be hurt by the way catoon mode work. i'll try some BRIGHT&fast motion scence. Basilisk is generally too dull

btw, any ideas to make the rain looks pretty close to the original dvd?

Last edited by Valeron; 6th June 2006 at 04:18.
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Old 12th June 2006, 01:40   #207  |  Link
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I don't want to appear impatient, but I'm wondering what the situation with XviD presets for MeGUI is.

Are you waiting for the naming issues to be resolved, because I haven't touched them because I don't use XviD and thus have no idea what is going on. If you tell me what the problems are, I can fix them.
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Old 12th June 2006, 11:56   #208  |  Link
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Oh, sorry - I haven't had any time lately. I hope those presets haven't held up things with MEGui.

You could actually save me some time if you can tell me how I best force a first pass to be performed at a defined quantizer. Restricting quants or meddling with zone-settings? That's it really; no other problems, just thinking about things other than video encoding ATM takes up all my time. I promise to be quick with these presets, when the above thing is worked out.
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Old 12th June 2006, 12:06   #209  |  Link
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It's not supported at the moment through any mechanism I know of. There (I think) is one turbo option, which restricts the features always in the same predefined way. I can change the way it behaves when pressing turbo to whatever you want, however that is only if there is a single set of first-pass options which is used for all the profiles. If not, then some other approach (probably something like having 'inner profiles' or something similar) needs to be looked into.

Is it enough just to hardcode what the turbo option is, or do you have different first passes for the different presets? How is it supported in XviD-VFW?

BTW, don't worry about holding MeGUI development up -- it isn't affecting it at all; I just wondered about the presets because they sound like a good thing for XviD+MeGUI. If I can help in any other way, let me know.
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Old 12th June 2006, 15:26   #210  |  Link
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Thanks for your help.

The thing about the first pass being performed at a different quantizer than the standard '2' is that in most cases '2' results in a bitrate too far from the aimed-at filesize for 2nd pass (especially true when using high-bitrate matrices). The curve is harder to normalize and we get an uneven quantizer distribution.

The usual solution when using the VfW interface is setting a zone with a constant quantizer for 1st pass. (This also disables fast first pass.)


If you can force quantizer=3 through the 'turbo' switch that would be fine by me; I'd wanted to revise the presets to '1st pass at quant=3' all over, anyhow.

So, this would probably mean I wouldn't need to create separate profiles for the 1st pass if 'turbo' is by default used in the 1st pass and if setting the 'turbo' switch would trigger the wanted settings? If it works that way one could of course ruthlessly alter the settings to meet what those preset-thingies require. Don't know whether others would regard this a 'misuse', though...

If you think it's viable this would be what I have in mind for a unified 1st pass behaviour (some compromises* included):

Quantizer=3, VHQ=1, motion search precision=5

Some folks would perhaps not like the change to motion search precision as '5' not exactly triggers a 'turbo-speed'..?

The rest should be standard 1st-pass behaviour (i.e. deactivated QPel, GMC, VHQ for-b-frames, chroma ME).

---------
*= motion search precision = 5 means an artificially small first pass for the DVD-R preset which runs at msp=4 in the second pass. Maybe the higher VHQ mode in 2nd pass will make up for it, probably not.
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Old 13th June 2006, 07:08   #211  |  Link
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I don't actually understand why you would want a high motion search precision in the first pass. What does it matter what the filesize is that pass?

Anyway, you are probably the best judge of how people will react to changes I make to XviD in MeGUI, so I have two things I could do:
  1. Set turbo to behave exactly as it is needed for your profiles, meaning that mse5 would be enabled on turbo.
  2. Support 'first pass settings' as a special configuration for the codecs (perhaps just XviD).

Now that I write it down, I think that 2. is better, but what do you think?

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Old 13th June 2006, 17:20   #212  |  Link
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Those first-pass settings are a compromise between a 'full quality first pass' and a 'fast first pass'. See this thread here, especially Koepi's and Didée's posts.

If you could without going to too much trouble work solution #2 that would be great, of course.
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Old 13th June 2006, 22:59   #213  |  Link
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Uhm... i dont think a Q4 first pass is a good idea for ULR matrix though.
It usually produces about 1000kbps @ Q2(Q4 for B frames) for 640/720px sources.
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Old 14th June 2006, 08:27   #214  |  Link
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The "1-CD" preset using EQMv3 ULR was meant for extreme compression ('extreme' as in 1000 kbps at full resolution, not 640x - so 'pretty extreme', I'd say...) and I thought it a good idea to use the middle-ground of 'allowed' quantizers for the first pass; i.e. '4'. But I myself wasn't so convinced that this was a good idea as you can see from this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teegedeck
[...]I'd wanted to revise the presets to '1st pass at quant=3' all over, anyhow.[...]

If you think it's viable this would be what I have in mind for a unified 1st pass behaviour (some compromises* included):

Quantizer=3, VHQ=1, motion search precision=5
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Old 15th June 2006, 01:48   #215  |  Link
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Yep, quant 3 is much better... even if i would leave quant 2...
ULR compresses really much and sometimes, with particularly compressible or denoised movies, even using Q2 is not enough to fit 1CD...
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Old 15th June 2006, 08:41   #216  |  Link
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That's pretty rare at full resolution. More importantly - the aim of those presets is not that each and every one of them can be used to fill a CD, 2 CDs, a DVD, whatever. If the preset which utilizes the ULR matrix doesn't fill a CD you're supposed to use the next-higher preset. The idea is to use CQMs at their sweet-spot. The '1CD'-etc. tags are only there to give a vague idea.

For example, here's some figures from the most compressible source I've tested so far:

1CD fast@quant3: 497 MB (EQMv3 ULR)
2CD fast@quant4: 397 MB (EQMv3 LR)
2CD HQ@quant4: 439 MB (EQMv3 HR)

You see that if one uses the '1CD preset' at quantizer=3 one could already start using the '2CD preset' at quantizer=4 (even the 'HQ' version of it which uses EQMv3 HR) - and that would look much better indeed. So there's little sense in allowing a lower minimum quantizer than '3' for the '1CD preset' IMHO. It's not a nice method but I decided to use quant-restrictions in order to prevent the 'misuse' of a preset after it became apparent that such things would actually happen.

Edit: For means of comparison, here the same for the least compressible source I've tested so far (2-hour-movie!):

1CD fast@3: 1668 MB
2CD fast@4: 1511 MB
2CD HQ@4: 1734 MB <---- an obvious problem; for some movies the outcome just is different... I think I will change the max. quantizer of that preset to '5'

It really is so futile to assign absolute figures in bitrate or filesize to the presets; what would you think of 'grade A', 'grade B' etc.?
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Old 16th June 2006, 17:29   #217  |  Link
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new revision of presets

OK, here's some (not all) MEGui profiles with the necessary CQMs. ATM it's for testing, OK? You should be able to just go to MeGUI file menu and choose 'import profiles'. Until berrinam has added custom first-pass settings to MeGUI you'll have to adapt your first pass settings manually to read:

Quantizer=3, motion search precision=5 (except for the '90% preset' where it should be '4'), VHQ=1

Actually I have no idea whether you can change the first-pass quantizer by adding a constant-quantizer zone in MEGui at all...

Spelled out:

* XviD '>30% comp. check' (fast): MSP=6, VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames, AQ, EQM v3 ULR rev.3, curve-compr. H30, L15, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 5
* XviD '>30% comp. check' (HQ): MSP=6, VHQ=4, VHQ for b-frames, QPel, AQ, EQM v3 ULR rev.3, curve-compr. H30, L15, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 5
* XviD '>45% comp. check' (fast): MSP=6, VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames, QPel, EQM v3 LR, curve-compr. H20, L7, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 4
* XviD '>45% comp. check' (HQ): MSP=6, VHQ=4, VHQ for b-frames, QPel, EQM v3 HR, curve-compr. H20, L7, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 5 (4 for I-frames)
* XviD '>58% comp. check' (fast): MSP=6, VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames, Qpel, SixOfNine, curve-compr. H15, L5, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 5 (4 for I-frames)
* XviD '>58% comp. check' (HQ): MSP=6, VHQ=4, VHQ for b-frames, Qpel, SixOfNine, curve-compr. H10, L3, quantizer-restrictions min. 3, max. 5 (4 for I-frames), Overflow Control Strength=0
* XviD '>90% comp. check' (fast): MSP=4, VHQ=1, VHQ for b-frames, b-frames 1/1.00/1.00, QPel, b-frame sensitivity=-3, SixOfNine, no curve-compression, quantizer-restrictions min. 2, max. 4 (3 for I-frames), Overflow Control Strength=0
* XviD '>90% comp. check' (HQ): MSP=4, VHQ=3, VHQ for b-frames, b-frames 1/1.00/1.00, QPel, b-frame sensitivity=-3, SixOfNine, no curve-compression, quantizer-restrictions min. 2, max. 4 (3 for I-frames), Overflow Control Strength=0

Settings that are always active if not specified otherwise: chroma ME, Trellis, chroma opt., b-frames: max. 2 consecutive, ratio 1.62, offset 0. NOTE: MEGui does not support chroma optimizer.

Naming has changed:
1-2CD preset --> 30% comp. check
2-3CD preset --> 45% comp. check
3CD preset --> 58% comp. check
DVD-R perfect preset --> 90% comp. check

I know that will trigger the inevitable question "what comp.-check?!?"* but I just couldn't come up with anything else that makes sense. Perhaps someone else has a thrilling idea.

The 'sharpen' preset will turn up as a specialized preset together with the 'for editing' and the 'Anime' presets lateron.

--------------
*: Compressibility check with Enc; SixOfNine CQM, constant quantizer=3, b-frames max=2, ratio=1.62, offset=0, motion search precision=4, VHQ=off, Trellis=on, Turbo=on and no other switches at all.

Edit: forgot that "constant quantizer =3" for the comp. check. Sorry.
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File Type: zip XviD-profiles.zip (9.3 KB, 2324 views)
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Old 16th June 2006, 23:10   #218  |  Link
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You can let MeGUI manage the CQMs if you use File->Export Profiles. I've attached what it produces, which you can install by dragging onto MeGUI or by using File->Import profiles.
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File Type: zip XviD-profiles.zip (9.3 KB, 700 views)
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Old 17th June 2006, 11:26   #219  |  Link
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Thanks; I've replaced my attachment with what you have uploaded.

Cool feature, by the way.
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Old 18th June 2006, 05:53   #220  |  Link
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XviD '>45% comp. check' (fast) and XviD '>45% comp. check' (HQ) seem different much. Any typo there?

Now I am trying to figure out how to make a comp test in Enc using commandline
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