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Old 12th September 2021, 16:57   #2001  |  Link
huhn
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you have to use bt709 in/source and bt 2020 destination.

this way madVR is forced to do the gamut conversation to bt 709 to feed the 3D LUT.

now you set send bt 2020 and that should be it.
i'M on AMD i can't send bt 2020 so i can't test this.
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Old 12th September 2021, 18:59   #2002  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I have no problem working with ffmpeg or any other encoding tools. I'm just not sure which is capable of remapping gamuts.

I generated a 3dlut with bt2020 source and rec709 2.2 target, and it seemed to work somewhat, but with the 3dlut enabled everything was oversaturated. That sounds similar to your result with mpv.
You can use portable mpv.net on windows with this config, and add/modify what quietvoid suggested.
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Old 12th September 2021, 22:23   #2003  |  Link
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You can actually modify the greyed out settings as well, e.g. colorGamut in PC mode! (I added example to the post above.)
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:25   #2004  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
You can use portable mpv.net on windows with this config, and add/modify what quietvoid suggested.
He noticed oversaturation doing this with mpv, which is the same I noticed when I tested the 3DLUT with madVR.

Is this expected? If not, what do we think is going wrong?
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:49   #2005  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
you have to use bt709 in/source and bt 2020 destination.

this way madVR is forced to do the gamut conversation to bt 709 to feed the 3D LUT.

now you set send bt 2020 and that should be it.
i'M on AMD i can't send bt 2020 so i can't test this.
This is an interesting idea, and makes sense as an approach.

I just tried it, but where I am unsure is what type of profile and tone curve I should be using. I tried a bunch of different combos of icms and tone curve settings, but gamma ended up way off in each case I tried.

For example, I tried Rec709 2.2 for source profile, and BT2020 ST2084 10000nit for destination profile, and I tried gamma 2.2, unmodified, and 2084 hard clip at 10000 nits as options for tone curve. All ended up with bad gamma.

Do I need a BT2020 gamma 2.2 icm for this? If so, I'm not sure where to get one.
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Old 13th September 2021, 01:58   #2006  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
He noticed oversaturation doing this with mpv, which is the same I noticed when I tested the 3DLUT with madVR.

Is this expected? If not, what do we think is going wrong?
I think it is expected, converting to 709 is not the same as keeping 709 in 2020 container.

I've tested this out by reencoding the S&M benchmark but I don't know if the method is accurate to compare WCG.
The final video has the original WCG clip on the left, and the 709 on the right.

VapourSynth script:
Quote:
src_path = Path("SM.mkv")
src = core.ffms2.Source(src_path)

src = src.resize.Spline36(width=1920, height=1080)

src2 = src.resize.Spline36(matrix_in_s="chromancl", matrix_s="chromancl", transfer_in_s="st2084", transfer_s="st2084", primaries_in_s="2020", primaries_s="709")
src2 = src2.resize.Spline36(matrix_in_s="chromancl", matrix_s="chromancl", transfer_in_s="st2084", transfer_s="st2084", primaries_in_s="709", primaries_s="2020")

src = core.std.StackHorizontal([src, src2])
src = src.std.AddBorders(top=540, bottom=540)

src.set_output()
Encoded with x265:
Quote:
vspipe -y source.vpy - | x265_10 -D 10 --y4m --level-idc 5.1 --crf 12 --preset ultrafast --repeat-headers --aud --hrd --no-cutree --colorprim 9 --colormatrix 9 --transfer 16 --chromaloc=2 --hdr10-opt --master-display "G(8500,39850)B(6550,2300)R(35400,14600)WP(15635,16450)L(100000000,50)" --max-cll=10000,1616 --input - --output default.hevc
You can find a snippet of the video here: https://mega.nz/file/MY9xVYxQ#1MJO-T...QoH0w066adsHB4
At least to me it makes sense when playing on the TV.
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Last edited by quietvoid; 13th September 2021 at 02:06.
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Old 13th September 2021, 03:51   #2007  |  Link
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That S&M demo looks great! Thank you!
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Old 14th September 2021, 18:35   #2008  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chros View Post
Especially the second is really amazing, no need to click around and wait to switch between PC and non-PC mode! Although it takes a second or so, just like when switching into/out from Game preset.
Does HDMI 2.0b banding happen there too? Or is that decoding correctly like in HDMI 2.1 FRL? As for colorGamut, you can change to BT.2020 for SDR BT.2020 primaries sources?

Last edited by Balling; 14th September 2021 at 18:59.
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Old 14th September 2021, 18:41   #2009  |  Link
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>converting to 709 is not the same as keeping 709 in 2020 container.

No, that is the same. LG will convert BT.2020 to 709 primaries by converting to whatever the display is (99% DCI-D65 or P3 or whatever including outside DCI for low luminance colors) for SDR. If we talking about HDR, of course better not to touch PQ.

Of course in practice keeping should be better unless LG really effed up somewhere with 3DLUT or BT.2087.

Last edited by Balling; 14th September 2021 at 18:45.
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Old 14th September 2021, 19:01   #2010  |  Link
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did you even try to understand what they are trying to do?
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Old 14th September 2021, 19:07   #2011  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
This is an interesting idea, and makes sense as an approach.

I just tried it, but where I am unsure is what type of profile and tone curve I should be using. I tried a bunch of different combos of icms and tone curve settings, but gamma ended up way off in each case I tried.

For example, I tried Rec709 2.2 for source profile, and BT2020 ST2084 10000nit for destination profile, and I tried gamma 2.2, unmodified, and 2084 hard clip at 10000 nits as options for tone curve. All ended up with bad gamma.

Do I need a BT2020 gamma 2.2 icm for this? If so, I'm not sure where to get one.
There is a lot of things that are wrong with this. First of all there is no such thing as 2.2 gamma. You are supposed to use 2.4 gamma on OLED. If you file is a screen recording, you were supposed to tag it with screen profile, if it is sRGB, then use BT.709 primaries, sRGB transfer and BT.709 matrix (matrix should be the same as primaries for optimal code points utilisation). sRGB is not 2.2 gamma. That is just wrong. AdobeRGB is 2.2 gamma, just like one of older tranfers from H.273. To set correct sRGB curve you are supposed to use parametric curve encoding introduced in ICC v4, 3rd type: gamma = 2.399994 (just 2.4 actually but no perfect round), a = 0.947861, b = 0.052139, c = 0.077393, d = 0.040451. https://github.com/saucecontrol/Comp...4.icc?raw=true Same about BT.709, but as I said here 2.4 gamma is supposed to be used since PQ is display referred.

Next: you should set SDR white point. It is supposed to be 203 nits for 1000 nits container. Next, PQ should be correctly done. ICC only last year introduced PQ in ICC.

And last you need to color manage to BT.2020 primaries... matrix should also change from BT.709 to 2020-ncl and also you need to either present in RGB or YCbCr 444 or for the case of 420 change chroma siting from left to top left, using FIR.

Now after that you need to switch the display in HDR mode with BT.2020 primaries and output it.

Last edited by Balling; 14th September 2021 at 19:23.
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Old 14th September 2021, 19:39   #2012  |  Link
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so the answer is no...
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Old 15th September 2021, 06:17   #2013  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
Does HDMI 2.0b banding happen there too? Or is that decoding correctly like in HDMI 2.1 FRL?
it happens with 1.4 too

Quote:
As for colorGamut, you can change to BT.2020 for SDR BT.2020 primaries sources?
yes and no LG does not use words like bt 709 or bt 2020.

Quote:
>converting to 709 is not the same as keeping 709 in 2020 container.

No, that is the same. LG will convert BT.2020 to 709 primaries by converting to whatever the display is (99% DCI-D65 or P3 or whatever including outside DCI for low luminance colors) for SDR. If we talking about HDR, of course better not to touch PQ.
why would they? he wants to clip/convert the gamut and beeen able to switch between both wide "bt2020" bt709 because converting bt 709 or bt 709 in bt 2020 are not the same

Quote:
Of course in practice keeping should be better unless LG really effed up somewhere with 3DLUT or BT.2087.
what has the EOTF to do with this if we just want to do gamut mapping?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
There is a lot of things that are wrong with this.
we will see...
Quote:
First of all there is no such thing as 2.2 gamma.
but there clearly is and that's actually needed for tone mapping.
Quote:
You are supposed to use 2.4 gamma on OLED.
gamma is a choice usually based on room lightning not a presentation technology. BTW. LG correctly sets to gamma 2.2 (you will not get is but that a different story)
Quote:
If you file is a screen recording, you were supposed to tag it with screen profile, if it is sRGB,...
no if he screen records or not this will not change the source characteristics in general if it is a video file with bt 709 it is even now sill bt 709 because nothing changed the sRGB in windows calibration is irrelevant for that.
Quote:
...then use BT.709 primaries, sRGB transfer and BT.709 matrix (matrix should be the same as primaries for optimal code points utilisation). sRGB is not 2.2 gamma. That is just wrong.
so where did anyone claim sRGB is gamma 2.2 while it uses gamma 2.2 it's starts flat giving it an effective gamma of ~2.4 but why would that matter for anything here at all. this is about using a TV with a video player where comes sRGB into the player?

Quote:
AdobeRGB is 2.2 gamma, just like one of older tranfers from H.273. To set correct sRGB curve you are supposed to use parametric curve encoding introduced in ICC v4, 3rd type: gamma = 2.399994 (just 2.4 actually but no perfect round), a = 0.947861, b = 0.052139, c = 0.077393, d = 0.040451. https://github.com/saucecontrol/Comp...4.icc?raw=true Same about BT.709, but as I said here 2.4 gamma is supposed to be used since PQ is display referred.
no gamma 2.2 is need if PQ tone mapping is needed because that's what is assumed as the source gamma. and if it would be any other gamma nothing would change because it's just for relativity as long as both the input and the assumption match the results is valid.
Quote:
Next: you should set SDR white point. It is supposed to be 203 nits for 1000 nits container. Next, PQ should be correctly done. ICC only last year introduced PQ in ICC.
you really have no clue what we are doing here right? this is completely irrelevant.
Quote:
And last you need to color manage to BT.2020 primaries... matrix should also change from BT.709 to 2020-ncl and also you need to either present in RGB or YCbCr 444 or for the case of 420 change chroma siting from left to top left, using FIR.
windows works in RGB so it doesn't matter what the chroma loc on the GPU driver is because the GPU driver is doing the chroma subsampling and as long as the GPU HDMI and the end device agree on the same chroma loc you are fine but you have no way to change this anyway.
Quote:
Now after that you need to switch the display in HDR mode with BT.2020 primaries and output it.
maybe now is a good timing to tell you that windows "can't" gamut map using icc files.

Last edited by huhn; 15th September 2021 at 06:59.
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Old 15th September 2021, 07:23   #2014  |  Link
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took me a couple of mins but here is a 3D LUT that should work.

i just run into an unexpected issue a bt 2020 profile with a bt 709 tone curve is created with gamma 2.6 in displaycal while a bt 709 profile with a bt 709 tone curve is created with 2.2 i was expectign it to be the same so it doesn't matter what the number is if that would be the case.

after i matched them it works "perfectly" now.
if you play a bt 709 and set madVR to this device is calibrated to bt 2020 or you use this 3D LUT you will get the "same" results.
it's not perfect there still seems to be a gamma difference in the 0.0x range if not 0.00x

but here you go:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MpU...ew?usp=sharing

not compressed i could not upload it for some reason if i do that.
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Old 15th September 2021, 19:06   #2015  |  Link
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"it happens with 1.4 too"

Do not have any hdmi 1.4 devices, only 2.0.

"and no LG does not use words like bt 709 or bt 2020."

On LG CX there is an override menu with it, so yes, they do.

"what has the EOTF to do with this if we just want to do gamut mapping?"

BT.2087 has indeed nothing to do with EOTF. Mostly. Though it indeed color manages on linear light.

"LG correctly sets to gamma 2.2"

The fact that it greys out gamma 2.2 means nothing. Yes, there are some appearance of underlying hacks of 2.2 gamma, but that is not an argument. As for "gamma is a choice usually based on room lightning not a presentation technology" you cannot do such a choice with PQ, not really, it is absolute and is meant to be looked in dark room. So there is no point, 2.4 gamma must be applied. Also, BT.1886 depends on presentation tech.

"not this will not change the source characteristics in general"

You are wrong. Use mpv with target-trc=srgb and you will see.

"while it uses gamma 2.2 it's starts flat giving it an effective gamma of ~2.4 but why would that matter for anything here at all."

Because sRGB uses 2.4 gamma internally with linear spline that makes it almost 2.2. Just like BT.709 OETF that is 1/0.45= 2.2222... gamma, yet is 1.961 gamma since it has a linear spline.

"windows works in RGB so it doesn't matter what the chroma loc on the GPU driver is because the GPU driver is doing the chroma subsampling and as long as the GPU HDMI and the end device agree on the same chroma loc you are fine but you have no way to change this anyway."

It is hard to make Windows work in YCbCr, but possible. You cannot control HDMI sample location. What I was talking about was SDR convertion of a source to top left chroma.

Last edited by Balling; 15th September 2021 at 19:37.
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Old 15th September 2021, 20:07   #2016  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
Do not have any hdmi 1.4 devices, only 2.0.
HDMI is backwards compatible just disable deep what ever HDMI stuff in TVs for connection and they will use HDMI 1.4 and again completely pointless.
Quote:
On LG CX there is an override menu with it, so yes, they do.
i have an CX here no. i can find bt 1886 which is absolutely pointless for this TV. and if you would try to follow what he wants to test what's your point?
Quote:
BT.2087 has indeed nothing to do with EOTF. Mostly. Though it indeed color manages on linear light.
eotf... what has this to do with the topic?

Quote:
The fact that it greys out gamma 2.2 means nothing. Yes, there are some appearance of underlying hacks of 2.2 gamma, but that is not an argument. As for "gamma is a choice usually based on room lightning not a presentation technology" you cannot do such a choice with PQ, not really, it is absolute and is meant to be looked in dark room. So there is no point, 2.4 gamma must be applied. Also, BT.1886 depends on presentation tech.
it doesn't gray it out it uses it by default. and that also doesn't mean you will get 2.2.
PQ does not care about the gamma and this is a madVR thread and madVR needs gamma 2.2 to tone map if you like it or not the TV doesn't care what you use because it'S all about relativity.
gamma is relative to room brightness if you have problem with that have a problem with that.
and about PQ is absolute dolby said no. looks like they found out that not everyone side in a dark room.

Quote:
You are wrong. Use mpv with target-trc=srgb and you will see.
you just tell it to change it...
so it does. cool. so why am i wrong now?
you just tell mpv that your display is calibrated to sRGB instead of BT 709 is it?
Quote:
Because sRGB uses 2.4 gamma internally with linear spline that makes it almost 2.2. Just like BT.709 OETF that is 1/0.45= 2.2222... gamma, yet is 1.961 gamma since it has a linear spline.
so now bt 709 is gamma 2.22 (which is mathematical correct) not 2.4? are you use we don't have to use gamma 2.22 now because you said so?
Quote:
It is hard to make Windows work in YCbCr, but possible. You cannot control HDMI sample location. What I was talking about was SDR convertion of a source to top left chroma.
you can use what ever chroma loc you want and even if you convert to SDR it doesn't matter because the GPU driver is still doing the conversation so what's your point?
you know you can define it while encoding...

so because windows can work in ycbcr what has this to do with anything here why would you chroma subsample in the first place why would you even mention it?
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Old 15th September 2021, 20:21   #2017  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
took me a couple of mins but here is a 3D LUT that should work.
Thanks! I'll give it a try.

Since you obviously have a MUCH better handle of this stuff than I do, can you think of a way to go a step further and compare something like 90% of P3 with 100%? Obviously "90% of P3" doesn't tell you exactly where the coverage is falling short, but it's just an example. One might choose to hit ~90% by simply pulling the green primary back while leaving red and blue at the limits, or something else. Essentially, I think I'm asking if it's possible to set arbitrary primaries rather than do a full gamut?

I looked into doing similar with VapourSynth but it seems it only has specific presets, and it would require modifying the source and recompiling, which I'm afraid I am not set up for. I did manage to get VapourSynth working and use the script from @quietvoid which was very helpful! I was actually surprised and how subtle the differences often are even between 709 and P3, which makes me wonder even more how subtle the difference must be between 90% of P3 and 100% or similar.

Last edited by aron7awol; 15th September 2021 at 20:27.
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Old 16th September 2021, 07:50   #2018  |  Link
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"so now bt 709 is gamma 2.22 (which is mathematical correct) not 2.4? are you use we don't have to use gamma 2.22 now because you said so?"

No, bt.709 is gamma 1.961. The inverse of 1.961 is also called 1.961. Yet, BT.709's EOTF is not an inverse. Okay? Oogh. It is different because camera is supposed to be in much lighter environment! It is called dim surround compensation.

"i have an CX here no. i can find bt 1886 which is absolutely pointless for"

That is how you are supposed to watch video, BUT NOT WEB PAGES. Okay? There is a secret menu where you can override stuff on a CX.

"it doesn't gray it out it uses it by default"

No, it does not. It uses PQ or HLG, which is not gamma. BT.709 and sRGB are also not gamma, only BT.1886 can be called gamma, but only on perfect display like OLED.

"gamma is relative to room brightness if you have problem with that have a problem with that."

The correct term is scene referred. AND NO, PQ IS DISPLAY referred. You cannot manipulate it, Dolby IQ being an exception. But if you will read the patent on it, it is insane. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2018119161A1/en

"you just tell mpv that your display is calibrated to sRGB instead of BT 709 is it?"

Instead of BT.1886, yes. The fact of the matter it is the only player that can do correct change of transfer, except Apple of course. Absolutely the same result you can get by just changing to BT.1886 in LG TV display. The result is darker and removes blooming.

Last edited by Balling; 16th September 2021 at 08:05.
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Old 16th September 2021, 08:21   #2019  |  Link
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@aslar42 "By opening CRU I see no trace of 2160p23 and 2160p59 resolutions, only 24, 25, 30, 50 and 60 (plus 100 and 120)."

Well, open your eyes. There is no such thing as 23 or 59. There is only 24/1.001 and 60/1.001 or 24.000 and 60.000 and it is almost perfectly refered to as such in new windows 10 display menu. Same about 30, 120. THOSE are included in TV resolutions (VICs) integer rate, PC must switch the alternate clock! DTD only support 3 decimals so they are useless.
Do not play with CRU, it corrupts EDID. Yes, even after the update. Also, you will have to apply the change in registry by hand.

An example:

Video Data Block:
VIC 96: 3840x2160 50.000 Hz 16:9 112.500 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 95: 3840x2160 30.000 Hz 16:9 67.500 kHz 297.000 MHz
VIC 94: 3840x2160 25.000 Hz 16:9 56.250 kHz 297.000 MHz
VIC 93: 3840x2160 24.000 Hz 16:9 54.000 kHz 297.000 MHz
VIC 16: 1920x1080 60.000 Hz 16:9 67.500 kHz 148.500 MHz
VIC 5: 1920x1080i 60.000 Hz 16:9 33.750 kHz 74.250 MHz
VIC 4: 1280x720 60.000 Hz 16:9 45.000 kHz 74.250 MHz
VIC 3: 720x480 59.940 Hz 16:9 31.469 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 2: 720x480 59.940 Hz 4:3 31.469 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 1: 640x480 59.940 Hz 4:3 31.469 kHz 25.175 MHz
VIC 17: 720x576 50.000 Hz 4:3 31.250 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 18: 720x576 50.000 Hz 16:9 31.250 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 19: 1280x720 50.000 Hz 16:9 37.500 kHz 74.250 MHz
VIC 20: 1920x1080i 50.000 Hz 16:9 28.125 kHz 74.250 MHz
VIC 31: 1920x1080 50.000 Hz 16:9 56.250 kHz 148.500 MHz
VIC 14: 1440x480 59.940 Hz 4:3 31.469 kHz 54.000 MHz
VIC 15: 1440x480 59.940 Hz 16:9 31.469 kHz 54.000 MHz
VIC 29: 1440x576 50.000 Hz 4:3 31.250 kHz 54.000 MHz
VIC 30: 1440x576 50.000 Hz 16:9 31.250 kHz 54.000 MHz
VIC 6: 1440x480i 59.940 Hz 4:3 15.734 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 7: 1440x480i 59.940 Hz 16:9 15.734 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 21: 1440x576i 50.000 Hz 4:3 15.625 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 22: 1440x576i 50.000 Hz 16:9 15.625 kHz 27.000 MHz
VIC 97: 3840x2160 60.000 Hz 16:9 135.000 kHz 594.000 MHz

Here every 60.000, 24.000, 30.000 also support alternate clock of /1.001 (except VIC 1, 2, 3, 6, 7 and those that have 50 Hz). Simple as that!!

Same about those, BTW (except 100 Hz and 50 Hz, again).

YCbCr 4:2:0 Capability Map Data Block:
VIC 97: 3840x2160 60.000 Hz 16:9 135.000 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 96: 3840x2160 50.000 Hz 16:9 112.500 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 118: 3840x2160 120.000 Hz 16:9 270.000 kHz 1188.000 MHz
VIC 117: 3840x2160 100.000 Hz 16:9 225.000 kHz 1188.000 MHz
VIC 102: 4096x2160 60.000 Hz 256:135 135.000 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 101: 4096x2160 50.000 Hz 256:135 112.500 kHz 594.000 MHz
VIC 219: 4096x2160 120.000 Hz 256:135 270.000 kHz 1188.000 MHz
VIC 218: 4096x2160 100.000 Hz 256:135 225.000 kHz 1188.000 MHz

Last edited by Balling; 16th September 2021 at 09:12.
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Old 16th September 2021, 10:20   #2020  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balling View Post
That is how you are supposed to watch video, BUT NOT WEB PAGES. Okay? There is a secret menu where you can override stuff on a CX.
we are in a thread about madVR and oled TVs let's talk about webpages...

Quote:
No, it does not. It uses PQ or HLG, which is not gamma. BT.709 and sRGB are also not gamma, only BT.1886 can be called gamma, but only on perfect display like OLED.
but we are using madVR here to tone map it get it please.
on an oled bt 1886 is 2.4 making it pointless.

"gamma is relative to room brightness if you have problem with that have a problem with that."

Quote:
The correct term is scene referred. AND NO, PQ IS DISPLAY referred. You cannot manipulate it, Dolby IQ being an exception. But if you will read the patent on it, it is insane. https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2018119161A1/en
last time we do gamma here not PQ. a 3D LUT for PQ to PQ is no possible here. and we have to use 2.2 because that's expected
"you just tell mpv that your display is calibrated to sRGB instead of BT 709 is it?"

[qoute]Instead of BT.1886, yes. The fact of the matter it is the only player that can do correct change of transfer, except Apple of course. Absolutely the same result you can get by just changing to BT.1886 in LG TV display. The result is darker and removes blooming.[/QUOTE]

selecting bt 1886 is the same as selecting gamma 2.4 in them what has this to do with apple or any other source device.

the gamma selection after calibration and only if you aim for the same gamma will make sure that an untouched input image will be displayed with the selected gamma.
completely irrelevant for this topic here. even if i calibrated my TV to gamma 2.4 the 3d LUT has to be 2.2 for the destination if we want to tone map end of story.

Quote:
Well, open your eyes. There is no such thing as 23 or 59. There is only 24/1.001 and 60/1.001 or 24.000 and 60.000 and it is almost perfectly refered to as such in new windows 10 display menu. Same about 30, 120. THOSE are included in TV resolutions (VICs) integer rate, PC must switch the alternate clock! DTD only support 3 decimals so they are useless.
Do not play with CRU, it corrupts EDID. Yes, even after the update. Also, you will have to apply the change in registry by hand.
23, 29, 59 and much more exist they are synonymous.
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