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Old 13th December 2020, 23:31   #1201  |  Link
bkrieger
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@bkrieger - What Asmodian is saying is that YCbCr 4:4:4 is the better option for you guys. PC mode itself is fine. Black level low, yes.
Ok, I will use that then.
On the PS5 it had been recommended to leave black levels on low or auto as well.

Thank You
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Old 14th December 2020, 02:42   #1202  |  Link
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Are you calibrating DV at all?
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Old 14th December 2020, 03:06   #1203  |  Link
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Other than adjusting the high 2-point, no.
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Old 14th December 2020, 03:19   #1204  |  Link
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So quietvoid isn't trying to upload a DV profile or mess with the LUTS? Cause that WILL cause black issues in DV on these OLEDS...at least some of them.
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Old 14th December 2020, 05:43   #1205  |  Link
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No.. I'm using the default settings, even reset the profile.
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Old 14th December 2020, 14:25   #1206  |  Link
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Ok. Just ruling that out as an issue.

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Old 15th December 2020, 06:57   #1207  |  Link
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As for DPL, I am sticking with 1000 for now.
What settings did you use for these during your test?
- no compression limit (NCL) (mine 100) (I guess yours was 0)
- disable avgHighlights ceiling (DAC) (mine is enabled)

I guess you didn't enable DAC, it has a big impact with high FALL content: using 55 DTN + enabled DAC results in higher ADPL (dimmer image) than 65 DTN + disabled DAC.
And probably that's why you didn't see any effect when you raised DTN above a certain threshold (now I understand), but when you enable DAC then there won't be such threshold, it will continuously dim the image if you increase DTN.

Now the question is what we want with this DAC option?

Edit:
At least that's the case with S&M demo. But for example using the jw2 clip (@20 sec) it works the opposite way :
- FALL of the frame is only 16 (with sky strength 100, this setting also has an effect with this frame, starnge) and measured peak is 1464 (lights on the firetruck)
- 65+noDAC is dimmer than 55+DAC (the difference is not huge though, 8 ADTN)
- with this frame you can go up until 429 DTN (!) + noDAC here to reach the threshold!!!!

So I guess noDAC can help a lot with high FALL frames/scenes, not sure
And that's why most of the scenes of S&M didn't do much after the threshold because the algo already reached the avgHighlights ceiling due to the very high FALL.

And that's also a good example that S&M is not the go-to clip to check, it's not representative at all (more like an extreme case), it's just another content to check
If anything, that jw2 frame is, having dark scene with 1-2% window of really bright highlights.
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Old 15th December 2020, 11:05   #1208  |  Link
QBhd
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DAC was enabled for those DTN comparisons.

I have had a eureka moment recently in the way I think about "tone mapping" with pixel shaders.

With brightness on OLED being a variable thing I don't think we can attain the same goals that a projector user can or wants. So let's scrap that idea. Instead let's think about what we can do. One can make the argument that the pixel shaders are actually remastering the video frame by frame in real time. With that, one could then make the point that the pixel shaders are then a virtual "mastering display". So if we are in the remastering business, we don't want to do too much, but just enough to improve the content. Also, HDR comes in many different flavors and if we can remaster all these flavors to the same Vanilla that the OLED likes then we win.

QB
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Old 15th December 2020, 14:39   #1209  |  Link
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My ub820 already does that.

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Old 15th December 2020, 15:34   #1210  |  Link
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Yes, but I doubt it is doing it frame by frame and in real time. I don't think it has the processing power to do such a thing. From what I hear, that player is awesome... for a player.

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Old 15th December 2020, 15:55   #1211  |  Link
chros
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DAC was enabled for those DTN comparisons.
Thanks for the confirmation, it's good news! I thought for a moment that when you said "after a point there's no difference" that means the DAC was on.

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So if we are in the remastering business, we don't want to do too much, but just enough to improve the content. Also, HDR comes in many different flavors and if we can remaster all these flavors to the same Vanilla that the OLED likes then we win.
I agree (we can't do much more about it ), the question is which settings are the best ... But I think our current settings not that bad either.
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Old 15th December 2020, 16:17   #1212  |  Link
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Yes, but I doubt it is doing it frame by frame and in real time. I don't think it has the processing power to do such a thing. From what I hear, that player is awesome... for a player.

QB
It's nowhere near what madvr does, but you're talking about only enabling the bare minimum of madvr processing per frame. My point is, that if that's your goal the end result isn't going to look all that much different than what the UB820 already does. Essentially I think the biggest bang for our buck is the metadata change to force the C8 to behave with a curve that follows EOTF more strictly. The minimal processing on top of that isn't going to be super noticeable in a moving picture. In fact, I'd be super curious what your preferred settings look like compared to passthrough with metadata set to 1000/1000/400. Something I can actually do here.
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Old 15th December 2020, 18:11   #1213  |  Link
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I'll freely admit that I am looking to do as little as possible. I don't think drastic changes to content is good or should even be a goal. The main thing I see is blown out whites (highs) in content that is very high. Getting more detail in those blown out parts is a good thing, as long as it doesn't hurt other parts or other scenes. Hence my conservative 65 DTN setting, it seems to do the job well, but it does struggle with certain scenes like the Meg... Even that scene is improved, just not quite enough.

The first thing I would do if I was SamuriHL. I would set the metadata to 1000/1000/333 and measure DPL=501. I would really like to know for sure that the massive jump in Luminance between 500 & 501 is actually the TV or if it is some threshold in madVR. It is a question I cannot prove. There is a definitive change in curves when changing the metadata with HCFR, but we cannot limit the Luminance with HCFR like we can with pixel shaders so the Luminance is the same, it just follows a very different curve. If you set DPL to 500 it only pushes 500 to the TV. Actually as I am writing this and "thinking aloud", I would need to do a few more measures to make a conclusion.... 501 with 500/500/167 meta as well would be another key one...

QB

p.s. added my current settings
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Old 15th December 2020, 18:30   #1214  |  Link
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Shadow recovery at insane? What.
I thought your goal was to do as little as possible.
Although it only affects scenes over DPL I guess.
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Old 15th December 2020, 18:46   #1215  |  Link
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Yeah, for the most part it will have little to no effect... I just want it to be aggressive when it is actually needed.

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Old 15th December 2020, 20:09   #1216  |  Link
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Actually, you may be surprised to find out that shadow recovery does a lot more than you may believe. Because when he's adjusting luminance it's having an impact in low black levels. I'm not really sure why that is and for us it really shouldn't be doing that. Anything that is belows 100 nits should be left alone and I THOUGHT there was a way to ensure that. We may want to look into that more cause I have shadow recovery set to high for similar reasons. It has been shown to make a difference. Look at some of the crazy SM scenes and you'll see what I mean. Anything that's very bright with shadows (duh lol) will show the issue quite well.

As for your measurement tests, I can probably do that but it may not be for a few days. I just don't have a lot of free time this week to mess with things. I see what you're trying to get at. And yes, I can set the DPL to whatever I want and then override the metadata with the Fury so I can definitely test that out at some point.
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Old 15th December 2020, 20:28   #1217  |  Link
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While I was in the shower getting ready for work I realized that it should be an easy two measurements. 501 DPL with 500/500/167. And then 501 DPL with 501/501/167... This should prove it is the TV doing weird stuff.

QB
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Old 15th December 2020, 21:32   #1218  |  Link
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I'll see what I can do. I might be able to slip that in tonight if I get a minute. No promises.
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Old 15th December 2020, 21:35   #1219  |  Link
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It's also not that important for us. I am pretty sure we know it's the TV, but it's just a nagging doubt since I could not prove it

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Old 15th December 2020, 21:37   #1220  |  Link
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It's easy enough to test I just need a few minutes to get everything set up and test it. Shouldn't take more than 10 minutes once I get the meter set up.
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