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Old 12th December 2019, 17:24   #58141  |  Link
Asmodian
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It isn't doubling the refresh rate that makes it look sharper, it is turning off smooth motion at 60 Hz and using a tuned ~24/48/96/120 etc. Hz refresh rate that is sharper (60Hz without smooth motion would be just as sharp but would have terrible judder). Smooth motion blends frames to present the source frame rate as accurately as possible on the display's refresh rate. It does not smooth the motion beyond avoiding terrible judder but the use of blended frames does reduce apparent sharpness to some degree.

At high refresh rates this becomes minimal and the experiance of a tuned 23Hz and smooth motion at 120+ Hz is effectively identical.

Edit: I don't know what issues your TV has but I am confused by your rant. I don't think anyone has ever suggested 50 fps on 60 Hz. That looks bad no matter what. You really want the refresh rate to be at minimum over double the frame rate before smooth motion is a decent option.

Smooth motion for any normal frame rate on a 144 Hz screen works very very well. Motion blur is still exactly as the movie was shot, there is nothing that changed or should be changed about the motion blur when using smooth motion at any refresh rate. madVR's smooth motion is not like your TV's or whatever motion interpolation. We are talking about how often the electronics update, not how often the image actually changes.

I am also not saying matching the refresh rate is not ideal, or that using double the frame rate is better; only that it is not worse.
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Old 12th December 2019, 17:43   #58142  |  Link
Morgin187
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I get ghosting when using smooth motion in madvr. So far matching the exact frame rate to the movie frame rate gives a smooth and film like experience with no judder or artefacts. This coupled with 10 judder and 5 smooth on my tv settings gives a almost perfect picture.
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Old 12th December 2019, 17:46   #58143  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Morgin187 View Post
This coupled with 10 judder and 5 smooth on my tv settings gives a almost perfect picture.
These seem suspect to me. What do they do and does it actually look better with them on? How does smooth motion look if you turn them off? You definitely cannot mix smooth motion with any of those options. Smooth motion is really intended for monitor like displays, displays that do not do any of their own image processing.

Why not just use a matched refresh rate? That or an exact multiple is always the ideal if you can get it.

Edit: Again, smooth motion is not trying to improve anything beyond a matched refresh rate. Smooth motion is for getting an experiance close to a matched refresh rate (assuming a high refresh rate display) without needing matched refresh rates.
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Old 12th December 2019, 17:51   #58144  |  Link
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Asmodian, are you referring to me with post #58142? If so, I cannot see the connection. What did I wrote and must admit don't understand that. Please use easier words for a non-native english speaker

I did several tests in the past and the motion isn't that bad, but for example I get some parts of the image in scenes especially with detailed textures are getting flickering, but on native refresh rate it is fine. I stay where I am and all theoretically stuff cannot beat my own perception of the image, that it looks best to use always the matching refresh rate.

Here's an animation how I see the flickering, keep it mind, that it only looks that way, and got nothing to to with interlacing because the videos are progressive.
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Old 12th December 2019, 17:55   #58145  |  Link
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I think you misunderstood my entire point.

Nothing is better than a perfectly matched refresh rate, or a perfect multiple of the frame rate. Keep using your settings!
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Old 12th December 2019, 18:01   #58146  |  Link
Klaus1189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
I think you misunderstood my entire point.
That is very possible for me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
Nothing is better than a perfectly matched refresh rate, or a perfect multiple of the frame rate. Keep using your settings!
Good to know

Last edited by Klaus1189; 12th December 2019 at 18:04.
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Old 12th December 2019, 18:21   #58147  |  Link
huhn
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I have a socalled 120 Hz panel and everybody tells me that it is much better, but I do not see any benefit at all compared to a good 60 Hz panel. I also don’t know why they call it that way, because these panels display can display 50 Hz also.
they are called 120 hz panel because they display 24p at 120 hz.
displays don't support refreshrate as 24p not even in cinema where 72 and 96 hz or even more are used to display 24p sources on refresh based technology.

a 60 hz panels usually can't do 24p at all they convert it to 60 using a 3:2 pullup which is clearly not the creators intend but what ever...
seem to be the same to you.
Quote:
To come back to 144 Hz for example, how can that display all different framerates right without having changed the smear, I don‘t know if this is the right word, but if you do anything to watch it on another multiple than the native refreshrate matching for that framerate, you will change the picture to be clearer or more smeared. I mean for describing the motion speed, the filmmaker can choose the right settings in the cam. But using matching refresh rates doesn’t affect that sort of thing.
because an LCD is sample hold so the refreshrate doesn't matter in this cease the smearing is always the same.
to be absolutely clear here an LCD is not displaying content accurate because it takes to long to switch the pixel and OLED is still sample load based to the motion resolution is very low.

Quote:
I can live with that that I am a „purist“, but if you have a 50fps video and watch it at 60Hz how can this be smooth especially at panning shots. This is another reason for me to use matching refresh rates.
the number of TV that can't do 50 hz is quite big just so you know. pal support is not mandatory in NTSC countries.

good to have smoothmotion still far from optimal situation for it but better then nothing.

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Originally Posted by mclingo View Post
Hi, just wondering, why does doubling refresh rate make it look sharper?
is obviously doesn't do that on a sample hold displays like an LCD or OLED. the image displayed on the screen is the same the pixel stay the same time in the same state.

on refreshrate based screens like plasma and CRT it lowers flicker but increases ghosting you have to choice one of them.
for 24p you have the ghosting anyway so higher doesn't hurt for 60 fps content it hurts motion resolution if displayed at 120 hz.
Quote:
Every better hardware player can do it, but I like a software player best, for best future proof.

I bet that every Blu-ray player above 50 Euro does support 24Hz output when the movie starts. My good old ps3 does that also. I am not using it anymore but it did it already 10 years ago.
who cares if the screen can't do it.
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Originally Posted by Klaus1189 View Post
Asmodian, are you referring to me with post #58142? If so, I cannot see the connection. What did I wrote and must admit don't understand that. Please use easier words for a non-native english speaker

I did several tests in the past and the motion isn't that bad, but for example I get some parts of the image in scenes especially with detailed textures are getting flickering, but on native refresh rate it is fine. I stay where I am and all theoretically stuff cannot beat my own perception of the image, that it looks best to use always the matching refresh rate.

Here's an animation how I see the flickering, keep it mind, that it only looks that way, and got nothing to to with interlacing because the videos are progressive.
typical result if your screen is motion interpolating with smoothmotion. so much about purist.

smoothmotion exist for device with problem in 24p mode or screens that simply can't do it like PC screens to keep the creators intent.
the motion interpolation on a TV is created to smooth the motion by creating fake frames which has nothing todo with the creators intent.

if you don't have that problem why should you use it?

just to give you an example samsung TV treat 24p source international wrong and create a 3:2 judder unless you set the motion interpolation setting correctly to custom 0 0.
LG usually needs real cinema to be enabled or they also do it intentionally wrong.
sony well i let you guess how they handle this situation to display 23p as the creator intent and what you need to setup to get true 23p.

just to show you how dumb TV brands are.
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Old 12th December 2019, 18:34   #58148  |  Link
Klaus1189
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But on the small TV with 60 Hz panel it does look different when I feed it with a 24fps video in 24Hz and with 60Hz. When 60 Hz is applied I see the judder. I did a blind test and when I checked it with OSD info I got always right. Strange, I think I must buy new eyes.

I disabled "Samsung smooth motion" on all my Samsung TVs.

Did you read it carefully what I wrote? Why should a slow pan on 50 fps video be showing at 50 Hz the same flickering like it does when set to 60 Hz while doing madVR to smoothmotion. Download some pan shots and compare for yourself.
I turned on smooth motion in Samsung TV and it got very smooooooooooth, so it was definitely off.

Why are again so challenging
This behavior doesn't make it easy for me to come back to help people.

Last edited by Klaus1189; 12th December 2019 at 18:36.
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Old 12th December 2019, 18:40   #58149  |  Link
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how do you even know if a german TV is 60 hz? i know no one that test them.

and if you are so so sure about that tell that's testing sites and question the existent of these option and why rtings tests this if it it's doing nothing at all.

Quote:
Why are again so challenging
why are you so ignorant and only read the parts you like and ignore the rest.
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Old 12th December 2019, 19:28   #58150  |  Link
Morgin187
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Originally Posted by Klaus1189 View Post
Why are again so challenging
This behavior doesn't make it easy for me to come back to help people.
keep helping people you helped me quite a lot
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Old 12th December 2019, 19:38   #58151  |  Link
Morgin187
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Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
These seem suspect to me. What do they do and does it actually look better with them on? How does smooth motion look if you turn them off? You definitely cannot mix smooth motion with any of those options. Smooth motion is really intended for monitor like displays, displays that do not do any of their own image processing.

Why not just use a matched refresh rate? That or an exact multiple is always the ideal if you can get it.

Edit: Again, smooth motion is not trying to improve anything beyond a matched refresh rate. Smooth motion is for getting an experiance close to a matched refresh rate (assuming a high refresh rate display) without needing matched refresh rates.
Blur reduction at 10 gives smooth image without any ghosting. Judder reduction at 5 stops the skipping look when the scene pans around. I've tried with them off and its just way better with them on. Still keeping the film look and no soap opera effect which i hate personally. Try it
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Old 12th December 2019, 19:39   #58152  |  Link
Klaus1189
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how do you even know if a german TV is 60 hz?
I don't get the question, do you mean displaying a 60 fps video or what exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by huhn View Post
and if you are so so sure about that tell that's testing sites and question the existent of these option and why rtings tests this if it it's doing nothing at all.
My main TV is a Q9FN and rtings tested it:
24p Judder
Judder-Free 24p <- this one is relevant for my usage
: Yes

Judder-Free 24p via 60p
: Yes
Judder-Free 24p via 60i
: No
Judder-Free 24p via Native Apps <- this one is also relevant for my usage
: Yes

The Q9FN is nearly judder free. When playing 24p content through a 60i source, like from a cable box, the Q9FN was inconsistent in removing judder. In a 24 frame test, there is judder in only 2 of the frames. This probably won't be noticeable to most people. Like other Samsungs we have tested recently, this result is unexpected and we will retest this with future firmware updates.
See full details here:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sa...-q9f-qled-2018

IMPORTANT:
I think I made a mistake, the second TV, the small one I use with madVR is a UE43KS7590UXZG and I thought it has a 60 Hz panel, but it seems it has also a 120 Hz panel, so please forget the 60 Hz panel thing, because of this wrong info in my head I thought a 60 Hz panel is also capable of doing perfect 24p.
But if you look the the rtings page and hoover the mouse over the "?", there are lots of TVs which are rated "0.0" and if I look them up in the test they all use a 60 Hz called panel and can'T do 24p native.

SORRY for my mistake, but since I use 120 Hz panels there's nothing wrong with refresh rate changing, because on these two displays 24Hz looks good to me.

So if a user has one these TVs it will definitely be better to use smoothmotion at 60 Hz output as best usage with this TV. But if you have a 120Hz pnale in the TV the TV is able to do correct 24p? Correct me if I am wrong.


Can I download this sample video used here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuEZ...ature=emb_logo
Or do I have to create my own with my NLE?
Source:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/viewthread-116-57040.html
https://www.zambullo.de/fernseher/datenblatt/UE43KS7590

I want to do that test on my own with my TVs as well since I have a DSLR and all that crap needed.

Thank you for opening my eyes, huhn
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Old 12th December 2019, 19:40   #58153  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Morgin187 View Post
keep helping people you helped me quite a lot
Thank you, I am glad that I could assist you
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Old 12th December 2019, 19:58   #58154  |  Link
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Thank you, I am glad that I could assist you
I also appreciate your advice and work you have put into all threads.

Dont worry about huhn, he knows his stuff and is also very helpful but he can come accross very brash sometimes.

Sure he doesnt mean to
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Old 12th December 2019, 20:06   #58155  |  Link
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Is there a way to save the 12bit RGB full color depth setting in nvidia control panel for 4k30hz resolution so that it gets selected during movie playback, even if the rest of the time the resolution is set to 4k60hz 8bit RGB full?
If I set the resolution to 4k30hz 12 bit RGB full and then change the refresh rate to 60hz, the 12bit color depth is selected during movie playback until the next reboot but I'd like a permanent solution for this.
I'm using the 4k30hz 12bit setting because that's the only way I get (almost) no color banding on my LG C9.
Do you really have "easy visible banding" when you let Madvr dither everything to 8bit and send this as RGB to your LG C9 ?
Something must be very wrong in this case !

I'm unable to see any difference related to banding between 8bit dithered RGB and any other 10-12 bit signal on my system.

I'd think that your LG C 9 must be the cause of banding : maybe some internal processing from the panel is causing the banding.

Have you tried "PC" mode on your LG ? Still banding visible ?
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Old 12th December 2019, 20:14   #58156  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Klaus1189 View Post
I don't get the question, do you mean displaying a 60 fps video or what exactly?
screen in different regions can have different panels making it hard to buy one.

everything on rtings can be wrong just because you have an german version.
Quote:
The Q9FN is nearly judder free. When playing 24p content through a 60i source, like from a cable box, the Q9FN was inconsistent in removing judder. In a 24 frame test, there is judder in only 2 of the frames. This probably won't be noticeable to most people. Like other Samsungs we have tested recently, this result is unexpected and we will retest this with future firmware updates.
See full details here:]
because this screen is supposed to fail in two test try this:
Quote:
The Samsung Q90R can remove judder from any source. To remove judder set Auto Motion Plus to 'Custom,' and Blur Reduction and Judder Reduction to '0' (if you don't want motion interpolation).
that's what i mean with motion interpolation 0 0.

and about the 60 hz panel sony found a way there are always exceptions to anything:
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/sony/x800g
2 hard indicator that this is a 60 Hz panel are no frame interpolation to 120 hz and no Judder-Free 24p via 60i which needs a 120 hz panel to do the app thing is an indicator too.
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Old 12th December 2019, 20:28   #58157  |  Link
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Cheapest HTCP for madVR in 4K HDR

Dear Friends

I would like to build HTPC and use the newest versions of: MPC HC + madVR + LAV Filters.

I would like to use this HTPC in two scenarios:

1. Only .mkv files - remuxes, backups from my physical UHD collection, such as: 3840x2160p @23.976 (almost every movie) and @24.000 (some of them) and @60.000 (only one movie: Billy Lynn's Long Halftime Walk), BT.2020 HDR 10bit YUV 4:2:0 + audio passthrough to my Onkyo TX-NR686 (Dolby Atmos, Dolby TrueHD 7.1, DTS:X, DTS-HD MA 7.1) with display projector: Epson EH-TW7100 4K HDR BT.2020 10bit.

So there will be no upscalling, downscalling needed at all. Only 4K HDR BT.2020 10bit YUV 4:2:0 to 4K HDR BT.2020 10bit YUV 4:2:0.

I will use an option in madVR: HDR passthrough to display.

2. I would like to watch also a YouTube in HDR, which is needed a codec VP9 v2.

So my question is, what is the cheapest PC components to buy, to meet requirements - watch movies in above scenarios without any stutters, judders, problems at all, just smooth playback?

Sincerely
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Old 12th December 2019, 20:43   #58158  |  Link
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the: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/ryzen_3/2200g#Graphics

but you should find a user with that APU first to make sure the VP9 profile 2 decoder is working properly. lavfilter fallsback to software on the new navi GPUs pretty much at random files (nearly for sure an GPU driver problem).

it's not recommended to use HDR passthrough with a projector.
even with relative low HDR->SDR settings it's not hard to beat an projector in tone mapping.
but a weak GPU like this VEGA 8 is not the best choice for this.
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Old 12th December 2019, 21:50   #58159  |  Link
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It would be a better choice if there weren’t the unsaturated/wrong colors issue in "hdr passthrough" mode, which was discussed here on the last pages. It seems that this is an issue for all AMD GPUs, so turn your choice in favor of Nvidia.
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Old 12th December 2019, 22:18   #58160  |  Link
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Dear DMU

I understand, but what kind of CPU and GPU will be enough for my scenarios 1 and 2? I will be not using this PC for gaming, only movies 4K HDR BT.2020 10bit YUV 4:2:0 and YouTube HDR.

Sincerely
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