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Old 14th October 2019, 04:32   #1361  |  Link
Cary Knoop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aymanalz View Post
Any tips on what settings to use if I want KNLMeansCL purely for degraining? That is, I want it to remove a lot of grain, but (hopefully) no other detail? Live action film, not anime.
I recommend testing it, there is no one cookie-cutter setting.

For instance, use a combination of stack horizontal and vertical to create a video matrix with various settings, pick the one that is most to your liking.

Or interleave various settings and go through them one by one.

Alternatively, you might want to opt for BM3D for removing grain. It's slow though, until someone ports a GPU version (hint, hint, wink, wink).
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Old 14th October 2019, 05:13   #1362  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary Knoop View Post
I recommend testing it, there is no one cookie-cutter setting.

For instance, use a combination of stack horizontal and vertical to create a video matrix with various settings, pick the one that is most to your liking.

Or interleave various settings and go through them one by one.

Alternatively, you might want to opt for BM3D for removing grain. It's slow though, until someone ports a GPU version (hint, hint, wink, wink).
Someone has ported BM3D to GPU, but it is in prototype stage as of now. (So says the Vapoursynth wiki.)

I'd prefer to use the GPU for degraining, as my encoding is already very slow. That's why I'm trying KNLmeansCL.

In general, for removing grain, does increasing the temporal parameter (d) help? How high can I increase the h parameter, without starting to lose other details?

Are there any grain removal specific combinations of the settings?

Also, which weighting function should I use?
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Old 14th October 2019, 18:40   #1363  |  Link
Cary Knoop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aymanalz View Post
Are there any grain removal specific combinations of the settings?

Also, which weighting function should I use?
Testing is the answer to your questions!

There are no magic settings.
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Old 14th October 2019, 19:33   #1364  |  Link
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There's no formal definition of "grain", so we can't be sure what you mean by degraining. For me, grain is a film thing and it doesn't cross frames, so temporal processing is not needed. Tell us more or better still give us a sample.
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Old 14th October 2019, 19:40   #1365  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videoh View Post
For me, grain is a film thing and it doesn't cross frames, so temporal processing is not needed.
How on Earth did you make the conclusion that temporal processing is not needed?

What you say is completely wrong!
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Old 14th October 2019, 20:09   #1366  |  Link
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Cary is throwing a narc tantrum because someone has a different opinion.
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Old 14th October 2019, 20:56   #1367  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videoh View Post
There's no formal definition of "grain", so we can't be sure what you mean by degraining. For me, grain is a film thing and it doesn't cross frames, so temporal processing is not needed. Tell us more or better still give us a sample.
You obviously have never used temporal mdegrain1/2/3 filter If you think that temporal processing is basically useless.
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Old 14th October 2019, 21:15   #1368  |  Link
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I never said "temporal processing is basically useless", which means you are a scoundrel. DG is still living rent-free in your head. Loving it!

Last edited by videoh; 14th October 2019 at 21:20.
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Old 14th October 2019, 21:29   #1369  |  Link
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I never said "temporal processing is basically useless", which means you are a scoundrel. DG is still living rent-free in your head. Loving it!
Temporal mdegrain will always give you better quality than knlmeanscl or any other spatial filter. Deal with IT. Spatial denoising like knlmeanscl destroys details like crazy. After all those years You are still such a noob...
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Old 15th October 2019, 07:15   #1370  |  Link
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No religious wars, please. Thank you.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 20:12   #1371  |  Link
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Question about KNLMeansCL: Would it be beneficial to detect pre-deinterlace noise patterns with this filter or should this filter only be used after proper deinterlacing?
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Old 22nd October 2019, 21:39   #1372  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Cary Knoop View Post
Question about KNLMeansCL: Would it be beneficial to detect pre-deinterlace noise patterns with this filter or should this filter only be used after proper deinterlacing?
progressive only, otherwise it will mess up the fields

either a) double rate deinterlace; or b) separate grouped even /odd fields and apply to each separately then weave back . For (b) you retain original fields, but you don't get temporal denoising between even/odd fields . I would say (a) is preferred
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Old 22nd October 2019, 21:57   #1373  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poisondeathray View Post
progressive only, otherwise it will mess up the fields

either a) double rate deinterlace; or b) separate grouped even /odd fields and apply to each separately then weave back . For (b) you retain original fields, but you don't get temporal denoising between even/odd fields . I would say (a) is preferred
When I wrote interlaced I actually meant to use option b.

I was thinking about doing a first run using option b and then deinterlace (with frame doubling) and apply a second run.
But the question is if that is worth it?

Last edited by Cary Knoop; 22nd October 2019 at 21:59.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 22:09   #1374  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Cary Knoop View Post
When I wrote interlaced I actually meant to use option b.

I was thinking about doing a first run using option b and then deinterlace (with frame doubling) and apply a second run.
But the question is if that is worth it?
You can try it; but I don't think it's worth it in general (for other denoisers as well, not just KNLMeansCL) . When you process even/odd separately , you can introduce a type of flicker because you don't even out the pattern between even/odd

If there was some type of defect limited to , say the even fields, then you might do that as to not contaminate the other odd fields with temporal processing (denoising or double rate deinterlacing with temporal smoothing like QTGMC). Or if one group had more noise (e.g. maybe chroma noise) than the other , you might preprocess them separately with different strengths and filters applied to even vs. odd
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Old 26th October 2019, 12:47   #1375  |  Link
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KNLmeansCL seems to have no effect on the output file when the weighing function chosen is anything other than Welsch. Has anybody else experienced this? During the encode, the GPU runs at high power, but the output file remains un-denoised, if I select any other weighing function.

I mentioned this to @selur, as I thought it's a bug in his program "Hybrid", and he was able to confirm the bug - but he stated that the bug is in KNLmeansCL.

Last edited by aymanalz; 26th October 2019 at 17:08.
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Old 26th October 2019, 13:21   #1376  |  Link
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Hybrid properly uses:
Code:
clip = core.knlm.KNLMeansCL(clip=clip)
clip = core.knlm.KNLMeansCL(clip=clip, wmode=1)
clip = core.knlm.KNLMeansCL(clip=clip, wmode=2)
clip = core.knlm.KNLMeansCL(clip=clip, wmode=3)
no error occurs, but interleaving the filtered and unprocessed frames does not show a differenc if wmode != 0.
(Hybrid uses KNLMeansCL 1.1.1)

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Old 26th October 2019, 16:36   #1377  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aymanalz View Post
KNLmeansCL seems to have no effect on the output file when the weighing function chosen is anything other than Welsch. Has anybody else experienced this?
I have no problem with for instance Modified Bisquare on Vapoursynth.
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Old 26th October 2019, 17:11   #1378  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Cary Knoop View Post
I have no problem with for instance Modified Bisquare on Vapoursynth.
What program do you use? Hybrid or Staxrip or...

Additionally, and I'm not sure if this is important, but what are you encoding from and to? x264/x265/something else?

Last edited by aymanalz; 26th October 2019 at 17:16.
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Old 26th October 2019, 18:30   #1379  |  Link
Cary Knoop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aymanalz View Post
What program do you use? Hybrid or Staxrip or...

Additionally, and I'm not sure if this is important, but what are you encoding from and to? x264/x265/something else?
Just straight Vapoursynth piped to FFmpeg.

No, the codec is not relevant. When I do a diff using Vapoursynth Editor, I can see a clear difference.
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Old 27th October 2019, 06:14   #1380  |  Link
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You are right there are differences using:
Code:
# Imports
import vapoursynth as vs
core = vs.get_core()
# Loading Plugins
core.std.LoadPlugin(path="I:/Hybrid/64bit/vsfilters/DenoiseFilter/KNLMeansCL/KNLMeansCL.dll")
core.std.LoadPlugin(path="I:/Hybrid/64bit/vsfilters/SourceFilter/FFMS2/ffms2k.dll")
# Loading source using FFMS2K
clip = core.ffms2.Source(source="F:/TESTCL~1/files/test.avi",cachefile="E:/Temp/avi_078c37f69bb356e7b5fa040c71584c40_853323747.ffindex",format=vs.YUV420P8,alpha=False)
# making sure input color matrix is set as 470bg
clip = core.resize.Point(clip, matrix_in_s="470bg",range_s="limited")
# making sure frame rate is set to 25
clip = core.std.AssumeFPS(clip, fpsnum=25, fpsden=1)
# Setting color range to TV (limited) range.
clip = core.std.SetFrameProp(clip=clip, prop="_ColorRange", intval=1)
original = clip
# denoising using KNLMeansCL
clip = core.knlm.KNLMeansCL(clip=clip, wmode=2)
# adjusting for FilterView
if original.format.id != clip.format.id:
 if (original.format.color_family == vs.RGB and clip.format.color_family != vs.RGB):
   original = core.resize.Bicubic(original, format=clip.format.id, matrix_s="470bg", range_s="limited")
 elif (original.format.color_family == clip.format.color_family):
   original = core.resize.Bicubic(original, format=clip.format.id, range_s="limited")
 else:
   original = core.resize.Bicubic(original, format=clip.format.id, matrix_in_s="470bg", range_s="limited")
diff = core.std.MakeDiff(clip, original)
# Output
diff.set_output()
I can see differences even when not using wmode=9, but they are way less then when using wmode=0.
Instead of
Code:
diff = core.std.MakeDiff(clip, original)
# Output
diff.set_output()
Hybrid uses something like:
Code:
original = core.text.Text(original,"Original")
clip = core.text.Text(clip,"Filtered")
interleaved = core.std.Interleave([original, clip])
# Output
interleaved.set_output()
-> Looks to me like neither a bug in Hybrid or the filter, but simply that with wmode=2 those subtle differences are really hard to spot when looking at the frames itself.

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