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Old 1st April 2019, 02:36   #21  |  Link
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From what I've been reading on AVS all these years, the Sony is that much better, yes. But they're the same if you don't use any interpolation, that's the thing. I'm curious what you had de-judder set to when you tried it. I've slowly moved my way up, and I've been happy at 5 for a long time. I do notice the occasional artifact, sure, but it doesn't bother me enough to turn it back down. I cannot stand the stutter.
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Old 1st April 2019, 03:54   #22  |  Link
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I keep mine at 0/0 (not off) which has a subtle improvement without introducing any artifacts that I can notice.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 18:02   #23  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
Stutter is a huge thing for me. I got an 2016 LG OLED and it's great for everything except fast panning on 24p. The stutter is incredibly bad, and there's nothing you can do except turn motion interpolation on (which is terrible).

I miss that about my plasma...
I didn't take MadVR seriously until I bought a screen with insanely high refresh rate -- and no motion interpolation, to boot. Before then, the only time I'd been able to see visible frame stutter was in 3D theaters, like Avatar, but suddenly it was everywhere. I feel your pain. More perfect is not always better when watching a medium designed to be imperfect.
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Old 3rd April 2019, 18:14   #24  |  Link
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what has the refreshrate to do with madVR if i may ask?
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Old 4th April 2019, 07:55   #25  |  Link
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why do you need high refresh rate to see 24fps stutter ?
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Old 7th April 2019, 21:58   #26  |  Link
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I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. I can attest that on both my LG OLEDs and my desktop 144 Hz gaming monitor the 24p stutter is absolutely brutal in camera pans, even with the displays running at 24 Hz.

I'm not aware of a high end display (especially one that has HDR) that is free from this issue today.

@foxyshadis how does MadVR help in this case?
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Old 8th April 2019, 00:46   #27  |  Link
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Running high refresh rate input to the screen and using madVR Smooth Motion might prevent that issue, at the expense of sharpness.

The stutter from Low Framerate Input is unfortunately a side-effect of our display technology getting better. Really good ways to resolve that have not been developed quite yet.
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Old 8th April 2019, 02:25   #28  |  Link
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Running high refresh rate input to the screen and using madVR Smooth Motion might prevent that issue, at the expense of sharpness.

The stutter from Low Framerate Input is unfortunately a side-effect of our display technology getting better. Really good ways to resolve that have not been developed quite yet.
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Old 8th April 2019, 10:59   #29  |  Link
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smoothmotion at high refresh rates is kind of an no brainer and doesn't really have the sharpness loss issues the blended frames are shown for a to short time it's less then 7 ms.

and i have a hard time seeing this changing the stutter issue if you are watching 24p content at 144 hz you can get blended frames with 95% of one frame so this shouldn't blur motion or you can get the "worst" case with 50% and the most important part this will change every time you play the same file.

is stutter really an issue from new display technology we had CRT in the past with even faster response times with backlightstrobing.
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Old 8th April 2019, 12:45   #30  |  Link
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and i have a hard time seeing this changing the stutter issue if you are watching 24p content at 144 hz you can get blended frames with 95% of one frame so this shouldn't blur motion or you can get the "worst" case with 50% and the most important part this will change every time you play the same file.
Stutter come from frames being static for too long, which is caused by fast response times on Sample-and-Hold displays - ie. when the monitor can switch the image instantly, then the jump between two images is more sudden, and you perceive a notion of stutter, since 24p is only borderline enough for smooth motion.

As such, smooth motion can help, as it reduces the "hold time" of each 24p frame by filling the gaps with blended frames. You get significantly less sudden jumps between frames, less perceived stutter.

A perfect BFI implementation would also help, if it doesn't result in losing too much brightness. BFI helps because when the image is turned off, our brain starts to interpolate between images - which doesn't work when the image is still being shown.
The BFI on my Sony TV makes motion super clear and fluid, its like magic. Unfortunately the brightness loss is quite strong, so I don't use it. But newer TVs cope much better with the brightness problem.

CRTs didn't suffer from this issue at all, its purely a characteristic of Sample-and-Hold displays. The way CRTs scan the image allowed our eye interpolation to function, in a similar manner as BFI tries to replicate, because pixels are not always "on".
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Old 8th April 2019, 13:44   #31  |  Link
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the problem with smoothmotion is it doesn't do that for every frame.

if you get 50% blended frames yes you get a result like a lower response time of about 7 ms on a 144 hz display but if the blended frames are 95& to 5% there is no real difference even using smoothmotion you can end up watching a whole movie with 98% to "% blended frames so there is pretty much no difference between SM on or off and this will change every time you start playback. so i have a huge problem seeing how this will lower stuttering as the results vary heavily.

i'm personally not affect by the stuttering from response times and i like BFI at at least 120 hz to stop the flickering and to have the sharp motion.
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Old 8th April 2019, 16:14   #32  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_MiSfit View Post
I'm not entirely sure, to be honest. I can attest that on both my LG OLEDs and my desktop 144 Hz gaming monitor the 24p stutter is absolutely brutal in camera pans, even with the displays running at 24 Hz.
Doesn't RealCinema On setting help with this? (not TrueMotion)
I just watched couple of 23p content during the weekend (65B8) with RealCiname On and I didn't see stutter, it was smooth as butter, maybe too smooth as well

I just found this - not too old - thread and people still can't decide what RealCiname does. I thought I knew it with my previous LG CCFL LCD TV, but I'm not sure anymore

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevcairiel View Post
Stutter come from frames being static for too long, which is caused by fast response times on Sample-and-Hold displays - ie. when the monitor can switch the image instantly, then the jump between two images is more sudden, and you perceive a notion of stutter, since 24p is only borderline enough for smooth motion.
That's interesting.
A month ago I set up custom refresh rates for my 1080p monitor (VA panel, nothing special) for 23/24p content with the help of madVR (47.9xx/48Hz) and it produced massive stutter in panning scenes, I was shocked.
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Old 8th April 2019, 16:17   #33  |  Link
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have you checked if your custom rate is dropping frames at the end device side. not that uncommon happen a ton when overclocking screens.
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Old 8th April 2019, 17:18   #34  |  Link
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have you checked if your custom rate is dropping frames at the end device side
How do you check this?
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Old 8th April 2019, 17:47   #35  |  Link
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does 60hz plus smoothmotion stutter like crazy?
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Old 9th April 2019, 02:02   #36  |  Link
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LG's Real Cinema is used to remove Judder not Stutter... From RTings review of the C8:

24p Judder

I am currently trying it out with OTA HDTV... not sure if I want to use it yet for PC input

QB

EDIT: LOL... I'm still such a newb with my 5 day old C8... Real Cinema, De-Judder and De-Blur... PC input has none of those :P
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Old 9th April 2019, 09:08   #37  |  Link
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24p Judder removal is a must with every new TV. If it cannot do that, it fails a basic requirement.
Judder-free playback is basically simply the ability to drive the panel at 24Hz (or a multiplier off of it), so that frame times are constant. Bonus points for support of IVTC in 60p signals.

However, "Stutter" is different from "Judder". It has its own categeory on RTings as well, and OLEDs usually fare terrible in it, due to their really fast response time.
"Judder" is an un-even motion effect, which is far more obvious to many people, while "Stutter" is even and regular, but just not overly smooth when you notice it (many people are not that bothered by it).
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Old 9th April 2019, 09:36   #38  |  Link
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because it is part of the topic.

judder free TVs are sadly not as common as they should be and TVs that are judder free with PC mode are pretty rare.
2018 was terrible in this regard with all these native 60 hz panels.
small example: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/samsung/nu7100

with the better tested TV only sony was able to do something like 48 hz with 60 hz panels the rest pretty much failed. rtings doesn't put much worth on to something as essential as this and labels it as "Most people aren't very sensitive to judder and won't see it." seriously?

brands which have reliable PC modes for all refreshrates are:
Philips and sony.
if you know more brands that have a PC mode that works at all refeshrates feel free to add them stuff like this isn't tested on rtings while high refreshrate PC mode is tested.
i can tell that panasonic is intentional doing this wrong.
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Old 9th April 2019, 13:29   #39  |  Link
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the problem with smoothmotion is it doesn't do that for every frame.
This. I would be interested if madshi could provide an option to blend every single frame, it would be interesting to see how that would look on, say, a 120 Hz OLED.

The mpv wiki has a very interesting discussion of these approaches. I think it would be interesting to see the "convolution" approach implemented in madVR.

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Old 9th April 2019, 15:47   #40  |  Link
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madVR fixes the audio clock at the same time to get repetitive results you have to stop this function too.
so not that simple.

if you really want to know you could try it in avisynth.
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