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Old 11th February 2019, 20:07   #54661  |  Link
iSeries
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Originally Posted by madjock View Post
In all honesty they are messing with multiple numbers and this and that with the latest variant of tone mapping, I watch a film once usually and that it, they are watching the same scenes over and over and over again looking for minute differences in frames.


I just like greens to look green and skin colours to look normal

So whether the metadata is right or wrong, Ive probably messed it all up with the HDR settings I like anyway.
With passthrough there is nothing that should be messed up, but apparently even when just passing HDR through, nvidia is sending bogus metadata to the TV. So this is (may?) be an issue for all madVR nvidia users, regardless of whether they are using madVR to tonemap (and sending as HDR) or straight passthrough

Last edited by iSeries; 11th February 2019 at 20:24.
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Old 11th February 2019, 20:36   #54662  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
With HDR the issue is not limited to just colours that look correct, tbh. The whole cinematographic effect of some scenes can radically change with bad tonemapping.
No doubt, but what concerns me is if we/they mess to what they think it should look like, then are they actually seeing what it was meant to be. I am sure like me people read UHD reviews on Bluray.com and the amount that say the colours are this, or uptick in detail here, but how many people actually care what there TV is doing. We are actually buying Blurays or UHDs from reviews when its just a normal TV with no fancy third party application making it perfect ? if there is such a thing and looking at that forum, it is going round in circles with every new clever iteration.
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Old 11th February 2019, 20:37   #54663  |  Link
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Originally Posted by iSeries View Post
With passthrough there is nothing that should be messed up, but apparently even when just passing HDR through, nvidia is sending bogus metadata to the TV. So this is (may?) be an issue for all madVR nvidia users, regardless of whether they are using madVR to tonemap (and sending as HDR) or straight passthrough
I mean from my side with messing with TV settings, so probably make an ass of it myself let alone nVidia
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Old 11th February 2019, 21:07   #54664  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
Yes, I also am seeing something similar on a 1080 screen albeit with fewer steps. The problem is NGU can only double, and (IIRC) SSIM can only scale x and y in the same proportions so if your source is anamorphic like TV, you need another step to do the scaling step from 1,25:1 to 1.78:1
Hey, that makes perfect sense. I didn't recall SSIM only does x and y in lockstep. Thank you!
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Old 11th February 2019, 21:46   #54665  |  Link
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No doubt, but what concerns me is if we/they mess to what they think it should look like, then are they actually seeing what it was meant to be. [...] if there is such a thing and looking at that forum, it is going round in circles with every new clever iteration.
I don't see it that way. From reading that thread over at AVS Forum, they are very carefully comparing the results of madVR's tonemapping with what a full range image would/should look like. It's also madshi's stated goal to create processing that gives results that are visually closer to what a full range HDR display would (highlight recovery is a good example). They spend a lot of time testing with and discussing specific scenes, but it's all done in a pretty scientific way IMHO.
Of course anybody is free to ignore that and just use passthrough especially if you have a good HDR display, but if you only own an SDR display that can output high brightness or an HDR display with bad tonemapping, and you want the best picture possible then it's an interesting development and I don't think it's a case of excessive tweaking.
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Old 12th February 2019, 00:07   #54666  |  Link
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Originally Posted by Raimu View Post
This seems like an unusually convoluted scaling path. Noticed this upscaling TV content from 576p.

I would think you Photoshopped that. If not, it just looks ridiculous, to me.
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Old 12th February 2019, 00:13   #54667  |  Link
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Originally Posted by el Filou View Post
I don't see it that way. [...]
Thank you
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Old 12th February 2019, 00:38   #54668  |  Link
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@Manni

Does other apps like HDR 3D games also send wrong metadata or it's only related to madVR?
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Originally Posted by KoKlusz View Post
If you would like to test it, Shadow of the Tomb Raider and Resident Evil 2 have free demos on steam that support HDR.
As far as I can see, once you enable HDR in the OS, it's exactly the same bogus and constant HDR metadata that is sent to the display.

It starts when I enable HDR in the CP, and the metadata remains the same when the game is launched and plays. Of course I've enabled HDR in the game as well, as it was disabled by default.

I couldn't find the demo of RE2 on Steam, but I did find the demo of SOTTB, so that's what I used for testing.

Game isn't a priority so please don't ask for more tests, I'm busy enough with the HDR tonemapping
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Old 12th February 2019, 06:54   #54669  |  Link
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@Raimu
can you do a screen of the full OSD.

madVr did strange things before if up and downscaling is needed at the same time.
but for that i need a full OSD and a sample to reproduce it.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:05   #54670  |  Link
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I've just got my PC hooked up with my TV and enjoying using MadVR especially on the JVC RS49.

I'd like to use MadVR's tone mapping with my LG C6. I use pixel shaders and pass the image through as HDR to benefit from the higher peak brightness of my TV in HDR.

My question is: Due to the Nvidia/Windows bugs where bogus meta data of 1000/20 is sent; will the internal tone mapper LG has throw off the results of MadVR? If I set the peak nits of my display to 600, LG's tone mapper should be bypassed as MadVR will report all content as 600 nits or below. But if the OS is saying it's 1000 nits - it'll be applying its own curve?
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:44   #54671  |  Link
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Originally Posted by RXP View Post
I've just got my PC hooked up with my TV and enjoying using MadVR especially on the JVC RS49.

I'd like to use MadVR's tone mapping with my LG C6. I use pixel shaders and pass the image through as HDR to benefit from the higher peak brightness of my TV in HDR.

My question is: Due to the Nvidia/Windows bugs where bogus meta data of 1000/20 is sent; will the internal tone mapper LG has throw off the results of MadVR? If I set the peak nits of my display to 600, LG's tone mapper should be bypassed as MadVR will report all content as 600 nits or below. But if the OS is saying it's 1000 nits - it'll be applying its own curve?
You could use the drivers it works on 385.28 (using them now). But I have to say this metadata thing news is news to me, I have tried to find other information, and have found the odd quote.

But for some reason in all the guides in using madVR and the likes, there is no mention of use this or this driver for HDR (due to metadata) so it seems like its a well known problem (or is it) thats just getting talked about again ?

https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...data/?offset=2

Last edited by madjock; 12th February 2019 at 09:51.
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Old 12th February 2019, 09:58   #54672  |  Link
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Nvidia bug affect both madVR passthrough and Pixel Shader with HDR output enabled, Do some comparaison by playing your HDR content using TV internal media player and you will see what i'm talking about.
But if you ask me, Pixel Shader with HDR output enabled is the best of the worst.
I was digging arround nvidia forums and i couldn't find a single topic about this bug, so time they hear our voice. and maybe madshi could help us by using his NV contact.

https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...-hdr-metadata/

Edit: haha madjock was faster quoting my own post
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Old 12th February 2019, 10:50   #54673  |  Link
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Thanks guys, but does 385.28 mean you can pixel shader with HDR output without issue? Easy for me to downgrade
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:09   #54674  |  Link
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Yes, 385.28 work properly with either passthrough or HDR pixel shader.
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:46   #54675  |  Link
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Anyone know what the last nvidia driver to work properly for hdr passthrough is?
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Old 12th February 2019, 11:59   #54676  |  Link
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The bad news, is nvidia's hdr api is deprecated and pending removal.
As nevcairiel said, maybe madshi should consider OS HDR API instead of NV.
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Old 12th February 2019, 13:07   #54677  |  Link
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So, because of all this bogus metadata talk I compared nvidia drivers 385.28 (red) and 418.81 (yellow) simply by running a 4000 nits metadata grayscale sweep in HCFR.
TV is a LG C8.

As can be seen in the attached picture, below 450 nits there is no difference but above that the roll-off is much smoother with the correct metadata (385.28).
Using windows HDR produces the same bogus metadata result as 418.81.




I really hope this will get fixed soon.
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Old 12th February 2019, 13:16   #54678  |  Link
iSeries
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So, because of all this bogus metadata talk I compared nvidia drivers 385.28 (red) and 418.81 (yellow) simply by running a 4000 nits metadata grayscale sweep in HCFR.
TV is a LG C8.
Hi j82k, thanks for this - I know you're likely to be busy but any way you could test a couple other driver versions? (I loaned my meter to someone). Specifically 398.11, which is apparently the last driver that is working fine for HDR passthrough (and conveniently the driver that brought improved 23p playback...I never could get any good timings with 385.28)

Last edited by iSeries; 12th February 2019 at 13:45. Reason: Added thanks
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Old 12th February 2019, 13:23   #54679  |  Link
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@j82k
Thanks, that very helpfull, would you please install the latest test build along with nvidia 418.81 drivers and take measurements with those settings:

tone map HDR using pixel shaders
output video in HDR format = enabled
target / real display peak nits = 800
apply dynamic clipping = enabled
apply target nits selection = disabled
LG dynamic tone mapping = off

Because it seems ok for me and almost matchs correct playback using my tv embedded media player.

Btw, did you take the previous measurements with your tv's dynamic tone mapping on or off?

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Last edited by sat4all; 12th February 2019 at 14:19.
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Old 12th February 2019, 13:28   #54680  |  Link
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@j82k

Thanks for clarifying and the explanation.
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direct compute, dithering, error diffusion, madvr, ngu, nnedi3, quality, renderer, scaling, uhd upscaling, upsampling

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