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Old 23rd February 2018, 07:23   #1421  |  Link
hiltr0n
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I have another question. I am doing Full 3D SBS and need to have my file resolution be 3840 x 2160 after compressing instead of 3840 x 1080. Is there a way to achieve this? I realize this is a bit odd since I technically would be scaling the vertical resolution 2x but there is a good reason. I purchased an Nvidia Shield TV which can playback my Full 3D SBS files just fine with hardware acceleration turned off. However, with that setup, it won't playback 4K HDR material, and a bunch of other things without hardware acceleration turned on. In an effort to make this setup user friendly (wife and kids), the only solution I currently have is to change the resolution of my 3D files and keep hardware acceleration turned on. I'm hoping there is some text I can add to the "__ENCODE_3D.cmd" that will do this. I've tried adjusting the SAR to various values, but it still looks at the original resolution of 3840 x 1080.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 11:31   #1422  |  Link
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Sorry, I did not notice this comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by te36 View Post
The zidoo x9s has in its proprietary media player a bunch of options how to display subtitles with 3D.
If it has an option to show the 3D subtitles BEFORE the cut of the 2 views and the final display, you should select that. Also, perhaps you'll find an option to move or resize the subtitles (for example to place them in the black border of the movies shot in Cinemascope). You should avoid that options like the plague, as they ruin the 3D effect.

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It sounds to me almost as if i should not try to convert to 2D subtitles, but keep 3D? subtitles with a fixed depth that makes them stay out very much in-front so they never overlap... Lets see.
It's the best option you can try if the original BD has no 3D-Planes. But anyway, the true 2D subtitles can only be displayed on the surface of the screen. So, if you can display the 3D subtitles correctly with your player, it is much better to use the 3D-Planes. The fixed-depth method you suggest if better than nothing and should be used when the 3D-Planes are empty, badly created or absent, but that method requires a player that can display the 3D subtitles anyway. So, use it only when you don't have another solution.

BTW, when a movie shot in Cinemascope has no usable 3D-Planes, in addition to the fixed depth it is also often useful to move the subtitles in the bottom black border, just to be sure that they will never enter in the foreground objects. BD3D2MK3D has no tool to move the subtitles in that black area, but it can move the video frame up to enlarge the black bar at the bottom. (See the option in the last tab.) I will probably add a subtitle tool to move the subtitles as well, when I will have some time...

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Originally Posted by te36 View Post
I have seen the Chinese Blu ray ripper being able to convert individual chapters without noticeable lead-in time that would otherwise be required to decode the rest of the move. Also Blu ray players can of course start decoding at chapter boundaries. But of course, i have no idea if any of the toolchains BD3D2MKV3D uses would make that easy or impossible.
It is easy to start encoding at any point in the movie when you encode a 2D movie. The problem with BD3D2MK3D is that it is not sufficient to decode the 2D AVC video stream. It must also decode the second view, encoded in MVC, and that's more difficult. Anyway, as I wrote above, BD3D2MK3D uses avisynth to decode the movie, and currently, all free MVC decoders are not able to begin decoding after the start of the movie.

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Should be reasonably easy though to modify the CMD as you explained to quickly run through different encoding options after a full decode is on disk. Optimizing h265 parameters for example.
Yes, you can do that easily to check the x265 encoding options. However, when you know what settings are correct for your movie, you may want to edit also the label of the video stream in the __MUX_3D_OPTIONS file, and the ENCODER_SETTINGS field in the __TAGS_3D.xml file. Although they do not influence the encoding, they are kept in the final MKV file for reference, and should correspond to the encoding parameters really used to encode the final MKV.
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Old 23rd February 2018, 11:58   #1423  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiltr0n View Post
I am doing Full 3D SBS and need to have my file resolution be 3840 x 2160 after compressing instead of 3840 x 1080. Is there a way to achieve this? [...] I'm hoping there is some text I can add to the "__ENCODE_3D.cmd" that will do this.
Yes, you can do it, but you have to edit the __ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs file, not __ENCODE_3D.cmd.

In __ENCODE_3D_MOVIE.avs, you will see this:
Code:
# Build Side-by-Side stream
StackHorizontal(Left, Right)
AssumeFPS("ntsc_film")
Just add a resize command between the two original command, like this:
Code:
# Build Side-by-Side stream
StackHorizontal(Left, Right)
LanczosResize(3840, 2160)
AssumeFPS("ntsc_film")
Note that there is a lot of avisynth Resize commands. Some give better results than others, but are usually slower. There are endless discussions on what is the best command to enlarge an image. There are also specific parameters to fine-tune these commands. You will have to select the one that you like yourself. Lanczos is among the best resize methods, but is somewhat slow. Anyway, since here you just want to multiply the height of the picture by exactly 2, a somewhat basic resize should give good results.

And don't ask me what SAR and PAR you have to use so that your player will display correctly the movie encoded in that unusual resolution. As I've explained previously, there is no established standard for the aspect ratios for 3D SBS and T&B, and the values to use may depend of your player. Just remember to change the SAR in __ENCODE_3D.cmd and the --aspect-ratio field in __MUX_3D_OPTIONS. I suppose that you can use 0:16/9 in __MUX_3D_OPTIONS, as it's the AR of the full-SBS as well as the final, decoded movie. The SAR in __ENCODE_3D.cmd is more difficult to figure out. Anyway, it might be a good idea to check the movie with several players. Remember that you will probably not use the same player during your whole life!

Good luck!
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Old 23rd February 2018, 16:28   #1424  |  Link
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Fantastic! Exactly what I was hoping to do. Yeah, I'll be testing various SAR values so that my players playback correctly (currently Roku Premiere+ and Nvidia Shield). And I agree, I won't use the same player my whole life. Thanks for this.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 02:59   #1425  |  Link
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Thank you r0lZ, this tool is wonderful. I've ripped my disc library in the past but have always had to keep the 3D discs out as an exception to that. Now I can finally include my 3D titles as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
Unfortunately, the resolution of the Full-SBS (or Full-T&B) video stream is problematic. It is easy to understand that two subtitles scaled at 50% horizontally fit in the standard size of an HD movie (1920x1080). However, to build the 3D subtitles for Full-SBS, it is necessary to compose them on a canvas twice as large as the final resolution of the movie (3840x1080). Unfortunately, that size is simply not supported by the SUP streams, limited to standard HD resolution, and the two versions of BDSup2Sub that BD3D2MK3D requires to convert the subtitles to 3D cannot handle that size.
Would subtitles work on Frame Sequential video streams then? With FS, the frames would be "standard HD resolution" so it wouldn't have the problem you describe. Or is there a different problem with FS that prevents subtitles from working there?
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Old 2nd March 2018, 10:54   #1426  |  Link
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Thanks for the thanks, and welcome to the Doom9 forums, Actionable Mango.
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Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
Would subtitles work on Frame Sequential video streams then? With FS, the frames would be "standard HD resolution" so it wouldn't have the problem you describe. Or is there a different problem with FS that prevents subtitles from working there?
Unfortunately, there is still a problem. With FS, the video stream contains one frame for the left eye, then one frame for the right eye, and so on. On the other hand, the subtitle streams contain subtitles starting at a specific time code and ending at another time code. There is no way to specify "this subtitle stream must be displayed on the left (or right) frames only", and therefore it is impossible to mux real 3D subtitles with a FS video.

Again, it's a problem related to the lack of a consistent 3D video standard, as it should be possible to add the necessary "left/right view" information in the header of the subtitle stream to inform the 3D players, but it's not the case. So, currently, muxing two different streams for the two eyes is useless. The player will pick only one, and display it in 2D.

However, like for full-SBS, it is possible to burn the subtitle stream on the image, during the encoding of the video stream (with the option on the last tab of BD3D2MK3D). It's not perfect, but that works with all players, and you can be sure that the subtitles will appear exactly where and when they should. The price to pay is that there is no way to hide the subtitles, for example when you play the audio in your native language.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 23:54   #1427  |  Link
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According to the LG OLED65E6P manual, TAB, SBS, and Frame Sequential are all supported 3D modes.

So far I've tested full resolution TAB and SBS, and both work and look great. Both automatically trigger 3D mode. I did this test with two different movies, so I cannot directly compare file size or quality.

Later tonight my latest encode test will be done, which is full resolution Frame Sequential, so I can test to see if that works too.

Of the three other posters in this thread with LG 4K 3D TVs, I've noticed you all do full resolution TAB. Why is everyone using TAB over SBS or Frame Sequential? Is it just a coincidence? Is TAB better in some way (higher quality? more compatible with other players? smaller size? future proof? it provides balance to the universe?)
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Old 3rd March 2018, 11:01   #1428  |  Link
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LG TVs (HD and UHD) use always passive glasses that filter the polarized light. That means that they emit half the pixels with a particular polarization, and the other half with the opposite polarization. As far as I know, all LG TVs are based on the same model. One line of pixel contains the pixels for the left view, the next one for the right view and so on. (I have read somewhere that LG is now able to offer full resolution for the two eyes, but theoretically, it's impossible.) Therefore, it seems logical to use Half-TAB instead of Half-SBS, as there is exactly the same number of line for the left and right eyes in the encoded video and in the screen. You encode 1920x540 and you see exactly that. If you use Half-SBS, half the pixels are not at the right position and are useless. You see a 960x540 image.

However, if that logic is correct for Half-TAB, IMO there is absolutely no reason to prefer Full-TAB over Full-SBS or FS. Since the video resolution is full anyway, the passive HD TV will throw away half the resolution regardless of the 3D frame packing. But the habit to prefer TAB over SBS is well anchored, and there are certainly many web sites that continue to pretend, probably wrongly, that Full-TAB gives a better quality with all kind of LG TVs.

I don't know how 3D UHD LG TVs react to Half-TAB or Half-SBS. IMO, the quality loss when using Half-SBS is probably minimal, if not completely absent, but I'm not sure.

On the other hand, Half-SBS is largely considered better for active 3D TVs. I don't know why, as with active glasses, all pixels are used to display the left and right views. But it is a fact that Half-TAB gives less good results on my Samsung HD TV. Again, I think that Full-SBS/TAB/FS are strictly equivalent.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 11:09   #1429  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
So far I've tested full resolution TAB and SBS, and both work and look great.
Have you had to modify the Full-SBS/T&B Aspect Ratio in the settings menu of BD3D2MK3D to obtain a correct picture, or did it work correctly out of the box? It seems that the default aspect ratios for the Full resolutions is not always correct and give distorted results on some LG TVs. I would like to know if I need to modify the default values, or if the LG TVs that do not display the full resolutions correctly are exceptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
Both automatically trigger 3D mode.
Did you encode in h265 or h264? BD3D2MK3D sets the 3D information in the MKV header anyway, and when encoding in h264, also in the video stream. As far as I know, only x264 "understands" the --frame-packing option, so currently, that information is not set in the video stream itself when it is encoded in h265. My Samsung TV switches to the correct 3D mode only when the information is present in the video stream, and ignore the MKV header, and therefore it cannot display the h265 videos in 3D automatically. :-(
I would like to know if LG takes the 3D info in the MKV header into account. Or does it detect the 3D mode with the 3D string in the file name?
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Old 5th March 2018, 19:49   #1430  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
Have you had to modify the Full-SBS/T&B Aspect Ratio in the settings menu of BD3D2MK3D to obtain a correct picture, or did it work correctly out of the box?

Did you encode in h265 or h264?

Or does it detect the 3D mode with the 3D string in the file name?
I can't answer the first question (yet) because I modified the ratio setting right from the start based on other LG users posts of their settings.

I encoded in H264. I had started up an H265 encode, but the estimated time was over 100 hours, lol. I have a Mac Mini, which is a low end computer, and in my case even worse because it's a 6-year old model with the slowest CPU option. With H264 I can do 1 movie a day.

I don't know that the LG is aware of the filename since I am using Plex, not an LG app, to play the content. I'm not sure the Plex server even gives the filename to the Plex client, much less the LG TV itself. But, for what it's worth, Plex installed on the TV automatically switches to 3D mode, and Plex installed on the AppleTV does not. On the AppleTV 3D still works via Plex, but it must be manually activated. I don't know if that gives you the clue you are looking for.

I really appreciate that you put this tool together. I would like to contribute back in some way. If there are any tests you'd like me to do, I'd be genuinely happy to do them. Just keep in mind it will be slow getting back to you, considering my computing power.

Tests to try:
  • Try default Aspect Ratio
  • Try H.265
  • Remove 3D information from filenames and see what happens
If there are any others to add to the list, let me know.

I have to admit, I'm not super excited about doing the H.265 test since it will use my computer for 4 days. I also have a very low end budget laptop ($280) that has an Apollo Lake Celeron supposedly with hardware acceleration for HEVC, both encoding and decoding. Will that hardware acceleration work with BD3D2MK3D? If so, I could switch to that and perhaps H.265 testing could potentially be much faster.

Is there a freely available file somewhere with short-length 3D content that I could use for these tests? All I have as sources are my movie discs which are quite long.

Last edited by Actionable Mango; 5th March 2018 at 19:52.
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Old 5th March 2018, 20:25   #1431  |  Link
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Thanks for the info. It's already very informative.

I know that encoding with x265 is much slower than with x264, but take in mind that you can use a faster preset and still get a much smaller file than with a slow x264 preset. The compression ratio of h265 is extraordinary! However, do it only if you think that it's useful for you. I don't need much testing.

Unfortunately, x264 and x265 do not use hardware acceleration. According to their development teams, it is not possible to obtain a good quality with the encoder algorithms necessary to use the acceleration, so they prefer to do it the slow way.

To do quick tests, I suggest to encode a Pixar short. On all 3DBDs with Pixar animated films, there is a short movie, usually excellent, and well suited to do quick tests. If you don't have a Pixar DB, you can also encode a 3D menu or another short clip. Use the Show All 3D Playlists option in the first tab of BD3D2MK3D to see if there are short clips hidden by default because they are too short to be interesting. If you want, I can also post the iso of the short Netblender demo BD somewhere (not officially available any more), but although it's a demo, it is probably copyrighted, and I'm not sure I can.
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Old 5th March 2018, 20:37   #1432  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
IMO there is absolutely no reason to prefer Full-TAB over Full-SBS or FS.
I finished my TAB/SBS/FS testing. The LG plays all of them (via Plex), and automatically switches to 3D for all of them. They all look the same to me quality-wise, and this time I did a direct comparison by encoding the same movie three times. If there is a difference, I cannot see it.

Interestingly, since Plex on the AppleTV requires manually switching to 3D mode, I cannot use FS files there. This is because LG's "manually switch to 3D mode" has TAB and SBS choices only, no choice for FS. Therefore, playback from Plex on the AppleTV is limited to TAB/SBS (and I assume would be the same for any external media player).

Quote:
Originally Posted by r0lZ View Post
Unfortunately, there is still a problem. With FS, the video stream contains one frame for the left eye, then one frame for the right eye, and so on. On the other hand, the subtitle streams contain subtitles starting at a specific time code and ending at another time code. There is no way to specify "this subtitle stream must be displayed on the left (or right) frames only", and therefore it is impossible to mux real 3D subtitles with a FS video.
Well I was doing FS test anyway, so I decided to see what would happen if I toggled the subtitles on. Lo and behold, they work!

To be clear, these are not hard-coded subtitles. They are the default settings (3D only, Blu-ray SUP, 0 depth added) and they can be toggled on and off during playback.

I'm pretty happy! I now have a solution that automatically triggers 3D mode, is full resolution, and I can select optional audio tracks and subtitle tracks.


Thanks again for your tool, and to the others who contributed to it as well.
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Old 6th March 2018, 10:19   #1433  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
I cannot use FS files there.
FS is not supported by most players, so IMO, since Full-SBS and Full-TAB are well supported, you should use one of those formats.

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Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
Well I was doing FS test anyway, so I decided to see what would happen if I toggled the subtitles on. Lo and behold, they work!
Hum, sorry to disappoint you, but you have seen the 2D subtitles. And using 2D subtitles for a 3D movie is a torture for the brain!
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They are the default settings (3D only, Blu-ray SUP, 0 depth added)
Since BD3D2MK3D cannot generate the 3D subtitles for Full-SBS, Full-TAB and FS, it replaces them automatically with the 2D version of the subtitles, even if you have selected 3D only.

You can verify easily that the subtitles are in 2D if you have a look at the filenames in the project. You will see, for each subtitle, something like:
Code:
00200.track_4610.Fra.2D.sup
00200.track_4610.Fra.sup
With Half-SBS or Half-TAB, you would have seen also "00200.track_4610.Fra.3D.sup", as well as a folder "00200.track_4610.Fra.3D_2D" with the temp XML and PNG files necessary to convert the 2D stream to 3D.

If you really want to check if your player supports the 3D subtitles in any full resolution, you should convert them manually to 3D (with the Subtitles Tools menu). Of course, it doesn't make much sense to convert them to Half-SBS or Half-TAB, so you will probably want to convert them to FS as 2 different streams. You will have to mux them manually (or edit the __MUX_3D_OPTIONS.txt file and launch the __MUX_3D.cmd to rebuild the final MKV file). I don't know how it will be possible to inform the player that it must use the 2 streams at the same time, and what stream is for the left or right eye. If Plex is really smart, perhaps it is possible to simply include "left" or "right" in the label of the stream? But honestly, I'm almost sure that they will be recognised as 2 independent 2D streams.
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Old 6th March 2018, 19:18   #1434  |  Link
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I've run the filename test by stripping all the 3D information from the filename. The TV still starts 3D mode automatically.

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Hum, sorry to disappoint you, but you have seen the 2D subtitles. And using 2D subtitles for a 3D movie is a torture for the brain!
That's totally okay. The reason I need on/off subtitles is because I am a little hard of hearing and some times I cannot understand what was said, so I back up and have the subtitles on for a few seconds. Then I can turn them off so they don't distract me from the movie.

You are right they are 2D, but that is not important for my temporary purpose. If I needed subtitles on all the time, such as for a foreign film, I'd burn them in as you suggested earlier.
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Old 12th March 2018, 22:01   #1435  |  Link
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I've done two more tests.
  • The 1:2 ratio setting "for some LG TVs" has to be on. With the setting off, the video displays at half size with large black bars all the way around.
  • H.265 FrameSequential does not work. The LG TV will not automatically turn on the 3D mode for H.265 FS like it will for H.264 FS. Also, the TV has no way to turn on 3D mode manually for FS; it only has manual modes for TAB and SBS.
I have started an H.265 TAB test, but it will be a couple more days before it is done. Boy I hope I remembered to turn the 1:2 ratio back on.

I will try an H.265 SBS test after that. If there is anything else you'd like me to try, please let me know.

My current 6-year old base model Mac Mini is very slow for this work. I might look into getting a new computer for Plex hosting and video encoding. Will the encoding speed scale well with additional cores? For example if I get a quad core of a certain speed will it be about twice as fast as a dual core of the same speed?
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:39   #1436  |  Link
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Thanks for the tests!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
  • The 1:2 ratio setting "for some LG TVs" has to be on. With the setting off, the video displays at half size with large black bars all the way around.
OK. I will change the default value then. I hope other TV brands need the same setting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
  • H.265 FrameSequential does not work. The LG TV will not automatically turn on the 3D mode for H.265 FS like it will for H.264 FS. Also, the TV has no way to turn on 3D mode manually for FS; it only has manual modes for TAB and SBS.
It's not really surprising. FS is usually not well supported by modern TVs (but can be mandatory for some old material).

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Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
I have started an H.265 TAB test, but it will be a couple more days before it is done. Boy I hope I remembered to turn the 1:2 ratio back on.
Normally, when you change a setting in the menu, it is automatically remembered from session to session. (However, if you change a setting in a tab, and if Save Tab Settings on Exit is off, you have to manually save them with Save Tab Settings Now.)

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I will try an H.265 SBS test after that. If there is anything else you'd like me to try, please let me know.
I don't think so. And I don't need a specific test for h265+TAB. If your material works fine for h264+TAB and h265+SBS, it will certainly work well for h265+TAB. So, do that test only if YOU are interested in its result.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Actionable Mango View Post
My current 6-year old base model Mac Mini is very slow for this work. I might look into getting a new computer for Plex hosting and video encoding. Will the encoding speed scale well with additional cores? For example if I get a quad core of a certain speed will it be about twice as fast as a dual core of the same speed?
I suppose so, yes. At least, on my 4-core machine, all cores are working at 95-100% during the encoding. However, I'm not specialist of x264 and x265. If you want a better answer, post this question in the x264 or x265 forum.

Note also that if you buy a new computer witrh a modern Intel CPU, you will benefit of the hardware acceleration of the Intel MVC decoder, used by the avisynth script during the encoding to build the two views that will be encoded by x265 or x265. The benefit is not immense, but it exists.
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Old 13th March 2018, 19:25   #1437  |  Link
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Thanks for the tests!

OK. I will change the default value then. I hope other TV brands need the same setting!
I have a LG TV which works just fine with the default setting, as does my father's LG. I expect things to go the wrong way if this setting is changed and I don't change it back...
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:38   #1438  |  Link
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hi

I get a lot of crashes with x264, sometimes at the very end of the encode (seems completed but the exe crashes) and sometimes in the middle. I did however update x264 to a newer version than the old 2851 that comes in the pack. I'm unsure if that's the cause or the switch to FRIM for default decoder.

Also the demux/project making seems to take a lot longer now but I could be wrong. I had one take over 2h on an SSD. It did have a lot of subtitles to go through but it wasn't the first time and I can't recall it taking so long.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:25   #1439  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildfire View Post
I have a LG TV which works just fine with the default setting, as does my father's LG. I expect things to go the wrong way if this setting is changed and I don't change it back...
OK, I will not change the default, but perhaps I'll create a small dummy project for new users to test the "difficult" parameters like the aspect ratios in Full-SBS/TAB.

However, can you confirm that your LG TVs work fine in FULL-SBS or FULL-TAB mode? I know that they work correctly in Half-SBS and Half-TAB.
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Last edited by r0lZ; 14th March 2018 at 12:41.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:37   #1440  |  Link
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mini-moose View Post
I get a lot of crashes with x264, sometimes at the very end of the encode (seems completed but the exe crashes) and sometimes in the middle. I did however update x264 to a newer version than the old 2851 that comes in the pack. I'm unsure if that's the cause or the switch to FRIM for default decoder.
There have been several reports of x264 crashes lately (reported above in this thread). Try an older exe, and if you have an Intel CPU, try to disable the hardware acceleration for the MVC decoder. Anyway, since I'm not involved in the development of x264, I can't help much more. Sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mini-moose View Post
Also the demux/project making seems to take a lot longer now but I could be wrong. I had one take over 2h on an SSD. It did have a lot of subtitles to go through but it wasn't the first time and I can't recall it taking so long.
Indeed, the conversion of the subtitles to 3D takes a lot of time and sometimes (but rarely) it is necessary to do an additional pass to convert them properly. Also, converting lossless audio (especially DTS-HD-Master) to AC3 and especially AAC is very slow. Otherwise, the speed of the demux (the longest operation) has certainly not changed, since the demux is still done with the same version of tsMuxeR. If the demux takes really longer, I would suspect a problem related to your hardware, the drivers, or Windows.
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