TV's without overscan areas?

[Episodio1]

* Do all analog TV have overscan areas? Is there anyone with a very little overscan area?

* Do LCD/Plasm TV have overscan area?

[BSpielbauer]

* Do all analog TV have overscan areas?

Yes. Believe me, you would not be a happy camper if they did not (there is stuff on the extreme outer edges that you do not want to see... and the broadcasters / cablecasters / satellite providers and DVD authors never intended for you to see).

Is there anyone with a very little overscan area?

Yes. A good ISF calibrator will typically check overscan, and reduce when necessary. And, it is almost always necessary, as the displays ship with way too much, sometimes... as much as 5 and 6 per cent. (Manufacturers often err on the side of caution -- they do not want service calls from people whose settings were nudged just a bit out of whack through rough handling, etc. They do not want customers calling for a service tech complaining how they can see some rough jagged edges and what resembles garbage computer code on the extreme left edge of their shiny new TV. They overdo things, sometimes, to avoid this, by design. Brands are often known for the amount of overscan... Mits sets have shipped for years with 5%. The calibrators all know this. Toshibas have stuck to about 4 1/2%. Mine was reduced from 5 per cent to about 2.5 per cent, and the calibrator said he always shoots for 2 1/2 to 3, regardless of the type of display.


Do LCD/Plasm TV have overscan area?

Yes.

Hope this helps,

-Bruce

[Mug Funky]

monitoring CRTs have a little button called "overscan" which displays the entire picture - junk and all. you can turn it on and off to check safe areas and stuff. usually 10% safe area is plenty, but some TVs are just crap.

@ BSpielbauer:

didn't know you could get it calibrated. sounds like a good idea. can other things get calibrated too? like 16:9 squishing or the warping on the edges? i bought a cheapo TV because it had component and multi-format (they all have multi-format), but it's not the best as far as manufacture goes...

[CWR03]

I use a PC with an ATI video card plugged into my TV - I can resize and reposition the display however I want, so I lined it out to match up as closely as possible to the edges of the screen. The tuner card still crops the edges a bit, but it's minimal, and all DVD's and videos I play are displayed edge to edge. It's also a whole lot more functional than a DVD player and there's no monthly fee like with a TiVo. Lastly, since it's connected through my network I can play files on any PC in the house on my TV.

[BSpielbauer]

didn't know you could get it calibrated. sounds like a good idea. can other things get calibrated too? like 16:9 squishing or the warping on the edges? i bought a cheapo TV because it had component and multi-format (they all have multi-format), but it's not the best as far as manufacture goes...

Mugfunky:

A good ISF (Imaging Science Calibration) calibrator will try to reset ALL of the settings so that the display is as closeas it can possibly come to the true NTSC standards and ATSC standards. These are the specs that those $25,000 and $30,000 professional monitors are set to when a DVD is transferred from film to video, or when a major network is sending out their signal, or when a satellite company or major cablecaster sends out its signal.

An ISF calibration is not only for overscan. Overscan is a very small part of what this organization is dedicated to. Typically, they will try to set the grayscale (using a color generator) so that it is as close as it can get to perfect 6500 degrees, and then readjust the contrast, brightness, sharpness, color / hue, and tint. They also re-adjust the geometry of the picture, trying to dial in a uniform convergence, and also fixing any bowing problems, etc. They try to eliminate all of the artifical edge enhancement problems, and also the color imbalances (examples include "red push" or "green pull.") Note that some of these "picture flaws" are due to errors in the design of the display, but that most are actually due to the desire on the manufacturer's part to try to make the display "stand out" and "catch your eye" when you are shopping. The fact is, there are standards, and most experts agree that the best display is one which matches YOUR set to the same settings that exist on the displays used by those who prepared your source material. If YOU can see exactly what THEY see, then all should be well (in theory, assuming competence on the part of the video transfer artist, or colorist, or telecine supervisor).

TV sets are shipped from the factory with settings which are often close to the opposite of this. This is sad, but true. Many years ago, one brand discovered that they could outsell the competition by re-adjusting the settings so they looked better under flourescent lights, even though nobody typically uses this kind of lighting in the home. It is, of course, the kind of lighting you are usually using when you make your purchasing decision. The other brands all caught on, and had to to follow suit, or lose sales. Many years ago, one brand discovered that they could outsell the competition by re-adjusting the settings so they emphasized a particular color (usually either red, or blue). This worked, and it worked so well, the other brands had no choice but to "re-adjust" their settings to display way, way too much of a particular color. A few years ago, one brand discovered that they could outsell the competition by re-adjusting the settings so they added an artificial harsh sharpness and turned it up so high it actually added visual "lines" where a dark shape overlapped a lighter shape. (This would be similar to drawing cartoon-like coloring book lines on a 35 mm photograph). It ceases to look natural, and distracts the eye so you no longer can see any real detail. However, it worked to sell a lot of sets, since somehow the picture seemed "sharper" than the other 23 sitting lined up next to it, all in a row. Quickly, the competition adjusted, and added this same feature, which is often called edge enhancement. (Even worse, many DVDs in the past few years are mastered by experts who were under pressure to do the same thing as they dialed in the settings for a transfer from film to video, so the actual DVD often has edge enhancement.) Now, many consumers sit down to view this DVD with edge enhancement on a TV set that has edge enhancement, and we are seeing vivid lines that were never there in the cinematopgraphy, and we are not able to see the subtle beauty of individual blades of grass. Our eye is instead drawn to that sharp line between the big green Shrek and the pale blue daytime sky.

The truth is, none of the consumer sets come at all close to true NTSC standars, or to true ATSC standards. An ISF calibrator can get you mighty close. If he is good, he can get you as close as your set can possibly get, given any real limitations that were engineered into the set (due to a poor power supply, or a circuitry error, or an imbalance in the actual CRTS, etc.)

I might "catch your eye" by flashing a stroble light, and I might even deceive you into belieiving that my strobe light is "better" than that wimpy old standard lightbulb over in the corner. However, most do not stop and ask themselves whether they wish to watch that same strobe light hour after hour, day after day.

Similarly, I might "catch your eye" with a neon sign, and completely distract you from the small candle which is next to it. This does not mean the neon sign will be more pleasing once you have it home, in your family room. However, we all tend to think "brighter is better" when buying a TV (wrong). We tend to think "sharper is better" when buying a TV (wrong). And, certain colors tend to give a false sense of "vivid color."

Audiophiles will recognize the same psychological effect of "louder" versus "better." Countless studies have demonstraed this same bizarre truth -- In a double-blind test, play the same source, through the same equipment, once at 65 decibels, and then again at 80 decibels. Almost every person being tested will agree that the "louder" source is "better" and "more vivid" and "has more warmth" and "has better fidelity." We are distracted form the truth. Smoke and mirrors...

(This is why many experts suspect that DTS is NOT in any way better than DD... It just so happens that DTS tracks are almost always LOUDER.)

For more info, do a search on the "Imaging Science Foundation."

-Bruce

[Episodio1]

* So... why LCD monitors dont have overscan but LCD TV's do?

* Is there any TV (or DVD player) with customizable overscan area?

* And do LCD proyector have overscan?

[Mug Funky]

it's probably because of intertia - TV has had overscan since the start, and so broadcasters account for it - there's often junk in the top and bottom of frame (VITC on the top, analog tape garbage at the bottom), and designers account for the 10% action safe and 15% title safe areas by default - things look a little weird if you get the entire frame - it's like printing a magazine with the bleed areas still intact.

DV cameras usually have simulated overscan on their LCD displays too - this makes it a problem if the boom is in shot but doesn't appear to be...

of course, it's likely that these practices will change in the next few years - increasingly production people aren't getting the "analog education", and are coming to expect what they make on the computer to look like what appears on the TV screen. with progressive and HD displays, this is becoming the case, but expect some stuff-ups in the meantime (line shimmer is a classic example, as are subtitles that are chopped at the sides or too close to the bottom).

[CWR03]

LCD monitors don't need overscan because the input is from a computer which doesn't have extraneous info on the edges. LCD TV's do for the same reason all other TV's do.

All TV's are "customizable," but most require more technical knowledge than the average person posesses.

LCD projectors are primarily designed for computer use, and since they take the same input as a monitor they have no overscan. I have an ATI tuner card in one computer with the ability to turn on/off overscan, so if I run it full screen I see the code along the top for closed captions. It is not adjustable, just on or off.

If you want something totally adjustable, your only real choice will be a PC in place of a DVD player, and probably an ATI video card. GeForce doesn't allow much adjustment.

[scharfis_brain]

so what about 853x480 Plasma or TFT Displays in NTSC-Mode?
IF they have overscan, they will scale :eek:
IF they do not have overscan, they won't scale ;) but you'll see the garbarge of the borders.

I don't like huge overscan. Eight lines per Border is IMO fully sufficient. I catches:
- VHS Head switching on the bottom
- Timecodes on the Top
- small black borders on left & right (eg.: shifted active image area)