which dv-cam to buy (cheap and for film-look)

[E-Male]

we're planing to shoot a no-budget movie (and some test clips before...)
so i'm now looking for a digital camera
we're in germany, and don't plan to do any importing (ebay, onlineshop or normal shop doesn't matter)
one thing that's important to me is that we can get close to film-look (using avisynth), so i need the right shutter speed
and of course it should be as cheap as possible (without producing bad results *g* )
thx for any advices

[o2xygen]

My advice is to buy a Panasonic 3CCD camcorder, one of the new models
Consider the NVGS75, NVGS250 and NVGS400... Dont go with the GS140/150 because some models are defective and show about 4 horizontal bars in low light (for PAL, 3 for NTSC :) )
The nice thing with these 3CCD is that the offer more manual controls than any other consumer camcorder. ALso the colours under normal light are unmatched. And there is a MIC IN so you can attach an extermal mic.
These record interlaced except GS400 that can also record in frame mode which is pseudo progressive.
If price and size doesn't matter you, you may consider the DVX100 as well

[E-Male]

thx
but i think even the NV-GS75 will be too expensive ["no-budget movie"]
after looking through ebay for panasonic cams I'd say that the GS35 is the most expensive of them we might(!) agree on in our group
~300€ would be the optimum, but some more would be ok if it really helps the quality

[trevlac]

Here's my amature advice on how to get a Non-DV look.

- Use a wide angle lense ... need a camera that you can attach to

- Use a tripod. Even a cheap still camera one. But don't try to do camera movement with it. You can 'fake' pan/zoom/tilts with and editor. Super smooth. There are 2 limits to the editor method. The angle does not change, and you are going to loose resolution. You can work with this.

- Sound! If you can, record the sound seperately. Like in a quite car. Sync it up latter and lay down a back ground track to get the feel of the footage. Poor camcorder sound will kill you.

- Basic Lighting. Learn to white balance, and adjust exposure. You want even lighting with not too big of a bright to dark range. You've got 256 values from bright to dark. This can't cover a wide range.

- Dramatic Lighting. I don't really know this ... but just added it to seperate from the one above. This is for mood and depends on what you are trying to do. Home dv stuff never has this, so add some if it works.

- Funky camera angles. DV is small and has a deep focal depth. Take them as advantages. Hange the camera out the widow of a moving car. Film from a ladder pointing down. Stick it on the ground and film up. Just make it steady. Frame shots that have action in both the forground and back ground to use the focal depth.

- Learn editing. (Not the mechanics of a given editor) Best way to do this is read a little, practice and then you will see. You really need a NLE to do this. AVS would work, but is harder to use.

An example .... 2 people talking scene.

Home DV method:

Handheld cam has sway and movement. Long shot of people. Faces are in shadow. White tee shirts are bright. There is a bright light source behind them and to their left. Cameraman moves around a bit so bright light goes away. Auto exposure pops the image brighter when the bright light is gone. The mic picks up all sound. Actors sound like they are far away.

A little bit better: :)

Film it 5 times (maybe 6). 1 long/med shot with wide angle, camera at eye level of actors (are they standing or sitting?) Use a tripod for all shots. Have them move to their spot in frame for the long. Next 2 shots are over the sholder of each actor. Use the wide lense. You want front and side of one actors face and side of the other's. They should be well lit so you can see their features. Dramatic shadows (or color light) could be used if you want a 'look'. Last 2 shots are from the point of view of each actor looking at the other. No wide, some zoom. Point the camera slightly up or down if there is a size difference or you want to make one person 'look up' to the other. You need the full shot, not just the part where they speek, but also where they listen to the other actor.

Make sure all 5 shots are from the same side (actor 1 should not jump from looking left to looking right) and don't move things around on the set, except maybe for the close ups.

Cut it all together. Re-do the sound if you can. If the shots are short it is easier to sync. If you are concerned with sound sync, stick a mic on a pole and hold it as close as you can for the closeups and over the sholders. You will need a cam that takes audio in, or a seperate recorder. Syncing the long shots should be easy.

=======================
Sorry for the ramble. :o My stuff is somewhere in between my 2 examples. And I see it when I edit.

But on practical notes for the cam ... you need a tripod mount, audio in, ability to add lenses, manual white balance, and manual exposure. BUT ... after some point, production methods a going to be much more important than DV cam differences.

[E-Male]

please keep this thread to the discusion what camera in our price-range would be best for the project
(but thx for the help, I'll read it later and see if there're any news for me in it)

[scharfis_brain]

get a PAL-DV cam, that allows true 16:9 anamorphic video.
(not this faked cropped & electronically zoomed jaggy stuff!)

Why PAL?
Just deinterlace it for Film-look!
But ensure shooting with 1/50 sec shutter. Nothing else!

[E-Male]

can i select that shutter speed on any cam?

[scharfis_brain]

on most cams you can.
The only thing I can advise: "Read its Manual"
Because various cams are quite different to handle.

[trevlac]

please keep this thread to the discusion what camera in our price-range would be best for the project
(but thx for the help, I'll read it later and see if there're any news for me in it)

:D :D

Well ... I did mention that you should get a cam with a tripod mount, that you can attach a lense to that you can manual white balance that you can manual adjust the exposure that can take audio in from an external mic and yes ... certainly PAL as scharif pointed out.

If you are going real cheap ... why not go for FREE. Borrow one. DV cam's have been around for quite some time. Someones gotta know someone who can loan a cam out.

At the risk of being rude :) ... if you don't have a cam, you may have never used one. If you've never used one and want to plunk some money down to get 'film look' ... well ... you might not know what you are doing.

Let me ask you a question to put it in perspecitve. I want to buy a computer cheap so I can edit some video (I've got a cam). I'd like to do some of those cool matrix tricks. Which one should I buy ? ;)

[o2xygen]

I will second what scharfis said. Its better if you use a PAL cam because its closer to film motion. Also, it has better colours and more pixels (720x576)
Consider these before you buy one:
- How many megapixels the CCD(s) produce
- MIC IN
- Optical Image Stabilization
- True Widescreen

I could say with caution that GS35 gives you the opportunity to change the shutter speed, based on the fact that the newer Panasonic's give you many manual controls. But no widescreen (however you can crop or letterbox the picture with good results) and no MIC IN (the my GS75 has a very good built-in mic, I don't know if GS35 has the same). Its not 3CCD but you can enchance the color in post.

[Chainmax]

Do you guys have any idea if there's a PAL version of the JVC GR-DX77? If not, which PAL miniDV camera would you recommend me in its price range?

[Mug Funky]

i might jump in and say even for low budget, it might still be worth splashing out and getting a 3CCD - they're way cheaper than they used to be, and they're just so so much nicer than crappy crappy 1-CCD grain, massive colour blocks (yellowish pinkish flashing blocks - hard to filter out without general chroma borking) and poor resolution. no amount of post will make a 1-chipper look like film, unless you're going for the Saving Private Ryan look - extreme grain, insane camera movement and very fast shutter.

remember you'll not only be using it for this project - it's always handy to have a video camera available.

the price difference isn't insurmountable. just get everyone involved to chip in a little.

also, one technique i find makes things look less handycam is to fake a steadycam by carrying the camera with a heavy tripod attached to it. the different weighting changes how the camera moves, and can make things look a little nicer at no extra cost (but your arms will get VERY tired after a fair bit of shooting...).

@ trevlac: good advice about recording sound in a car. it's hard to find a room with an appropriately dead sound.

[o2xygen]

Do you guys have any idea if there's a PAL version of the JVC GR-DX77? If not, which PAL miniDV camera would you recommend me in its price range?
http://www.bwayphoto.com/product.asp?id=jvgrdx77epal
Most PAL cams have an E at the end (europe). So this one is GR-DX77E

[E-Male]

Well ... I did mention that you should get a cam with a tripod mount, that you can attach a lense to that you can manual white balance that you can manual adjust the exposure that can take audio in from an external mic and yes ... certainly PAL as scharif pointed out.i never said you are totally OT
but the bigger part of you post was
If you are going real cheap ... why not go for FREE. Borrow one. DV cam's have been around for quite some time. Someones gotta know someone who can loan a cam out.not that easy in our area
also it would be good to have a cam without any time-limits
At the risk of being rude :) ... if you don't have a cam, you may have never used one. If you've never used one and want to plunk some money down to get 'film look' ... well ... you might not know what you are doing. :stupid: :stupid: :stupid: ;) ;) ;)
it's not the first time i start something with theoretical knowledge only (and won't be the last), everybody has to begin at one point
i'm gonna do the video part completely in freeware
but i don't wanna buy a 2nd or 3rd cam because the first was a waste of time and money
Let me ask you a question to put it in perspecitve. I want to buy a computer cheap so I can edit some video (I've got a cam). I'd like to do some of those cool matrix tricks. Which one should I buy ? ;)simple rule of thumb in this case: the computer can be as cheap as you patience will allow :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:



I will second what scharfis said. Its better if you use a PAL cam because its closer to film motion. Also, it has better colours and more pixels (720x576)
Consider these before you buy one:
- How many megapixels the CCD(s) produce
- MIC IN
- Optical Image Stabilization
- True Widescreen

I could say with caution that GS35 gives ..... enchance the color in post. :goodpost: thx
we'll go for PAL anyway
the internal mic should do, because we'll dub



i might jump in and say even for low budget, it might still be worth splashing out and getting a 3CCD ...

also, one technique i find makes things look less handycam is to fake a steadycam by carrying the camera with a heavy tripod attached to it... :thanks: ok, seems like going for a cheap 3CCD cam seems to be the best price-vs.-quality decision for us then
also thx for the heavy-tripod advice, gotta try that one