Questions about bitrates and RBOpt

[theclaus]

Okay I have been playing with Finding Nemo now for a week trying to get good quality settings and while close it just isn't right. So my final try was to do the following.

1. VOB Blanker out the crap I don't want. This brought the size down 5550MB.
2. MenuShrink the menus(OMG 1.7GB for menus) and selected no audio. This brought the size of the dvd to 5071MB
3. Ran Step 1 of DVDRB and came up with the following

-----------------
[06:52:44] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- "Steal Space from Extras" mode is enabled.
- VTS_01: 2,565,108 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 209,057 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 84.0%
- Overall Bitrate : 3,489Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,713,756KB
- Movie improvement from extra reduction = .0%
- HIGH/LOW/AVERAGE Cell Bitrates: 6,893/500/3,489 Kbs
[06:58:00] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 6 minutes.


I am using CCE 2.70 SP and now wondering how the heck to use RBOpt. I want to get the best quality I can but having trouble figuring out how to use it. Can anybody give me a run down? Also I would like to buy RBPro but right now in my life $10 isn't available. I wish it was but it just isn't there(damn gas prices are killing me) so please try to refrain from telling me about the awesome features of RBPro.

If you wish to buy it for me let me know and I would be more than happy to give you my information so that jdobbs could email me the Pro version.

Thanks in advance

Eric

[writersblock29]

@theclaus

You're getting above 3K for a bitrate -- which normally yeilds excellent quality. What problems are you noticing? Is it still macroblocking (giving you bad edges on moving objects and "pixel dancing" on still areas)? You may want to check out the original source and see if these things exist there. If so, you can always try using Rebuilder's filter editor (Options/AVS Options/Advanced ((Expert)) Options/Filter Editor) and entering this line:

Undot().Deen()

So long as you have these plugins availible in your AVISynth Plugins folder, these two should clear up a lot of the noise. You will, however, lose a bit of detail because these are smoothers... but the effects of these filters may be more tolerable than pixelization.

Remember, however, to remove this line from your filter editor once you're done, or Rebuilder will fire them up with every project you do afterward.

I remember doing this movie some time ago, and opting for a movie-only treatment with DVD Shrink (which, as it turns out, needed no processing beyond this point and yeilded full original quality). It's a loaded disk! To create still menus without sound saved a lot of space... but destroyed the "fun" of having the characters interact with you while making selections. And the kids usually give less than a hoot about the special features... so in my case I decided, "Why not movie-only?" Having the original tucked away, I could always watch those whenever.

There are also guides on Doom9's homepage regarding the use of a freeware called IFOedit (availible in the downloads section) for stripping out stuff like studio logos and the like, if any of your other methods have left anything further that you can remove and save a little more space.

[theclaus]

I encoded it and it came out nice. While I like the idea of movie-only I also like to have the menus. Now with Nemo I opted for stills because I could care less about the motion just want a menu that matches the movie.

It turned out ALOT better than my original encode. No fuzzy edges or anything now. I am moving onto Dark Angel(TV Series) and will try to get the same results as I did with Nemo. Though this disc isn't loaded with anything other than the episodes.

Here is the output Prepare Phase.

[21:40:48] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- VTS_01: 1,998,346 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 155,456 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_06: 987,694 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 79,226 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_07: 1,012,679 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 78,613 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 58.9%
- Overall Bitrate : 2,610Kbs
- Space for Video : 4,163,548KB
- HIGH/LOW/AVERAGE Cell Bitrates: 3,641/500/2,610 Kbs
[21:48:47] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 8 minutes.

[writersblock29]

@theclaus

Glad to hear it worked out for you! Those same two filters might do some good on Dark Angel, too: Episode disks are notorious because -- like Nemo -- they are so darned packed with stuff. I found with Miami Vice Season One that I had to use both Undot and Deen, as well as decomb (the default deinterlacer in Rebuilder) before I wound up with results I was happy with. Those old 80's television shows (Forever Knight comes to mind, as well) are just grainer than all get-out, and grainy material makes your encoder work well harder than it needs to. All these filters slow down your encoding speeds -- some by a LOT -- but that end result makes it all worthwhile.

[Boulder]

I found with Miami Vice Season One that I had to use both Undot and Deen, as well as decomb (the default deinterlacer in Rebuilder) before I wound up with results I was happy with.
What did you need Decomb for? AFAIK Miami Vice was shot on film so it should be originally progressive.

[theclaus]

When should I use DeComb. Right now I am looking at Dark Angel and ran it through DGIndex and saw it said Interlaced. Does that mean I should run DeComb or not?

Thanks again for all your help writersblock29

[SpazzHH]

IMO, unless you plan on watching the output only on your computer monitor, you should never use Decomb. The hardware of your stand-alone does a much better job of any de-interlacing than Decomb could ever do. Just as another opinion, you might try HC encoder on your Episode discs, as it is much better with interlaced content at lower bitrates.

[Boulder]

When should I use DeComb. Right now I am looking at Dark Angel and ran it through DGIndex and saw it said Interlaced. Does that mean I should run DeComb or not?

Thanks again for all your help writersblock29

DGIndex can only tell whether the video stream is flagged as interlaced. It cannot determine whether it really is interlaced. Many (most?) DVDs are flagged as interlaced even though they are actually of progressive content.

And as SpazzHH said, don't deinterlace if you watch the result on your TV. Actually the hardware on the standalone doesn't need to deinterlace either because TV can display interlaced material.

[jdobbs]

My opinion... it is better to retain the original format. If it is interlaced -- leave it alone. Running a deinterlacer or decomber will distort the source and more often than not will make it look worse. Standalone players and your television work well with interlacing (it is the standard for television).

[writersblock29]

:rolleyes:
Nothing draws a debate faster than discussing the use (or lack of use) of a deinterlacer. I always leave decomb checked, since I tend to watch material on all manner of devices -- from computer monitors to standard televisions to HDTV. Since I sometimes don't like the deinterlacers that hardware devices use (sometimes I like them fine, depending both on material as well as equipment), I tend to always run a deinterlacer on my projects. I have some that I prefer over decomb... but decomb's easy to use since it's Rebuilder's "check here" plugin. Sure, I could use Rebuilder Opt and edit scripts for all material that's interlaced -- but once more, I said I use decomb because it's easy within DVD Rebuilder's programming.

Since Rebuilder doesn't deinterlace what's already progressive, I simply leave this setting on. Yes, I'm aware that it cuts resolution (which I actually feel gives it an edge in encoding interlaced episode disks; in the same manner that the "half D1" option does only not quite as extreme). I recently ran a test on disk four of the Dawn of the Dead collection (bonus features), which contains both interlaced and progressive content. One I did without decomb (attempting to leave it as close to the original as possible), and one I did with decomb, using Undot and Deen (to represent what I felt was "the best I could do simply with an overall bitrate of 2.4K.") I kept the version I deinterlaced and filtered.

Just what makes me happy.

@Boulder

You might be right about not needing decomb for 'Vice. I didn't check to see what the stream was made of other than what filters might help the graininess. I always enable decomb anyway. Might be watching it on my laptop on a trip someday. Or the HDTV. Or the analog in the guest bedroom. Since I never know where I'll watch it (or where a family member will watch it... or a friend I've lent it to... or the neighbor's cat...), I try to reach a happy medium.

[theclaus]

Ugh okay there just went hours of encoding out the door. I know that it was blocky in areas but never saw the interlace on the TV just on the computer. I'll reencode and have it do the undot.

[theclaus]

Okay I can't seem to get HC to even work with RBFree. I set it up under Qenc and turn off every setting under Quenc and it crashes when it tries to encode. So I am stuck with using CCE for now. If anyone has an idea of why it is crashing I would greatly appreciate it.

Specs
AMD 1.5GHZ XP
512 RAM
80 GB Hard Drive
Sound Blaster Live
ATI Radeon 9600
Windows XP Pro SP2


@writersblock29
I just played some of my backups on my HDTV and noticed the interlacing. It wasn't to bad but enough to notice it. I think i'll decomb from now on just to make sure and get that happy medium.

[jdobbs]

You have to use HCBatch.exe. Download the latest freeware version (v0.94)with the installer. It installs HC for you.

[theclaus]

Should I uninstall 0.93 before installing 0.94?

[jdobbs]

It all depends how you have it installed... it should be alright.

[writersblock29]

@theclaus

*interlacing on HDTV*

Yeah, I notice that a lot on my set. The analog television, of course, shows nothing (analog sets display interlaced images, after all) -- but on computer monitors, LED screens, and plasma screens... there's those zebra stripes on moving objects. Of course it depends both on the quality of the encoded material and the deinterlacing capibilities of your equipment as to how bad they are -- but since I do video projects for quite a few people, I've just fallen into the habit of making sure the material's as universal as I can make it. Decomb's not my deinterlacer of choice for purely interlaced material (like DV footage) -- but it's probably the best choice for a program like Rebuilder; a lot of DVD special features are "hybrid" material, which is progressive content intermixed with interlaced footage. Try running a standard field blender on that sort of stuff... and you'll have smooth deinterlacing on interlaced footage with downright nasty effects on the progressive material. Ditto if you try playing with field orders. Decomb doesn't do this. Here's an interesting link on how Decomb works:

http://neuron2.net/decomb/decombnew.html

[theclaus]

jdobbs,

I just installed RB0.94 and while you added the options for HC there is no entry under setup. Was this intentional or just an oversight. I know you said no new features with Free but wondering what I should do.

Thanks

Eric

[jdobbs]

If you use the installer, HCBatch.exe is installed in the DVD-RB directory under "PATH_TO_DVD-RB/Encoders/HC Encoder/hcbatch.exe". DVD always looks for it there.

[jdobbs]

One more note: You can also set it to any other directory by adding HC= to the [Paths] area of REBUILDER.INI.

[theclaus]

Yeah I should of checked the ini file. It was in there. Also shock upon shock it isn't crashing on encoding either. I am encoding stuff right now. Will let you know how that goes tonight.