AAC Codec for MS-ACM

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Is there any free AAC Audio-Codec aviable for MS-ACM ???
Did some searching, but no success...

:thanks:

[Doom9]

I think I know what you're trying to do: don't. You use ACM codecs in VfW based tools that create AVI files.. all components of things that don't really go well together.

[stephanV]

Uhm... ACM (= part of VFW), VFW and AVI work perfect together...

what doesnt work well together is ACM and AAC. I believe someone once tried to make one, and then gave up.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Thanks for the info!

I think I know what you're trying to do: don't. You use ACM codecs in VfW based tools that create AVI files.. all components of things that don't really go well together.

Japp. I use VirtualDub for creating AVI files. I currently use the x264 VFW-Codec for video-compression and the LameMP3 ACM-Codec for audio-compression. I thought I could improve the audio-compression with an more up-to-date codec. If AAC is not a good Idea, is there an OGG Vorbis codec aviable?

what doesnt work well together is ACM and AAC. I believe someone once tried to make one, and then gave up.

What a shame!

[Doom9]

AAC and AVC go perfectly together... but you need to use the right tools - those that do not depend on VfW are your best shot, e.g. MeGUI: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96032

VFW and AVI work perfect together...obviously, but throwing in AAC into this will cause problems, that's what I meant to say. And it is actually possible to have AAC in AVI using AVI Mux GUI: http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/Video-Zeug/AVIMux%20GUI/index-eng.html .. it may just not be such a great idea to do this but use a container that's made to hold this combination of video and audio codec. MP4 is the obvious choice here with Matroska another possibility, with the latter posing some additional restrictions (you cannot mux raw AVC content into it, and you cannot extract AVC video tracks from it with currently available tools)

[stephanV]

Yes, yes, I know. But AVI is not made for any (combination of) codec(s) in particular. And while I'm not gonna discuss if AAC in AVI is bad or wrong or a hack or whatever (it is questionable), it is not any different from placing VBR MP3 into AVI. (Which is what a lot of people have been doing all those years).

Small correction: MKVMerge supports H264 extracting to raw now and haali made a Directshow filter that can be used in combination with his splitter (and Nero's) and dump.ax on MP4 and Matroska files to extract the data to raw. :)

If AAC is not a good Idea, is there an OGG Vorbis codec aviable?
Vorbis is an even worse a idea.

If you want better quality maybe its an idea using besweet or other tools and use VBR MP3, which should be a considerable improvement over the CBR what you use now. IMO the difference in size between Lame MP3, I-tunes/Nero AAC and Vorbis at similar quality does not justify switching from containers for A/V if you do not do very low bit rate encodings.

[Doom9]

MKVMerge supports H264 extracting to raw nowReally? I must've missed a new build. Could you point me to the right one?
Isn't Vorbis the one you cannot mux properly even in AVI Mux GUI?

[stephanV]

Really? I must've missed a new build. Could you point me to the right one?
I don't know if Mosu has put out a new official build (maybe you can find a build in the MTX thread here) but in the SVN log this can be found:

rev3000: Added support for extracting h.264 / AVC tracks into proper h.264 ES streams. Patch by Matt Rice <topquark () sluggy ! net>.

I haven't tested it, but then again, I don't need it either.

Isn't Vorbis the one you cannot mux properly even in AVI Mux GUI?
Currently only ffmpeg can mux Vorbis into AVI. But the method is a bit obsolete in a way that placing for example a 64 kbps Vorbis stream in AVI will cause so much overhead that the total stream size (raw audio data + overhead) can be larger than, say, a 128 kbps mp3 stream. And then theres the problem of actually playing the files...

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Okay, thanks a lot for all that information. If that thing is so complex, I think I'm gonna stick to my good 'ol MP3 codec ;) AAC or Vorbis in AVI really seems to be a bad Idea...

Now: CBR or VBR ??? Neither Frauenhofer's MP3-Codec (the one that comes with Windows) nor Radium's version of that codec support VBR. The only ACM-Codec I found which supports VBR-MP3 encoding is some Alpha-Version of LAME-ACM. I did some testing, but when using one of the VBR modes the sound does *not* play synchroniously :( I'm not sure if it is a problem of the Codec itself. Maybe VirtualDub is unable to put VBR-MP3 correctly into AVI. Or it's just a problem of the AVI-Splitter or MP3-Decoder...

Any Ideas :confused:



BTW: What about mp3PRO-Support in an ACM-Codec?

[stephanV]

Yes VirtualDub doesnt handle VBR audio. I already advised you to use something else for your audio... (something that is not ACM) and use e.g. AVIMUx GUI to put audio and video together.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Yes VirtualDub doesnt handle VBR audio. I already advised you to use something else for your audio... (something that is not ACM) and use e.g. AVIMUx GUI to put audio and video together.

AVIMUx is no use for me. I think I'm gonna stick to VirtualDub and CBR-Audio then. At least until some tool similar to VirtualDub with support for VBR-Audio in AVI is aviable...

[Wilbert]

Never tried VirtualDubMod?

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Never tried VirtualDubMod?

Is 1.5.10.1 build 2439 (2004-03-07) the latest Build aviable ????

[stephanV]

Yes, but that still doesnt handle VBR encoding via ACM. Most likely nothing ever will, so you can wait for a long time. :)

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Is VirtualDubMod able to write VBR-MP3 correctly into AVI ???

Creating Matroska files with VirtualDubMod doesn't work :( The resulting files don't play back correctly. Neither with Media Player Classic (I use Haali Media Splitter and ffdshow) nor with VLC Media Player. The Video is stuttering and the sound seems to be completly broken (first some strane noise, then silence). I used x264 and LameMP3-VBR for encoding.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Yes, but that still doesnt handle VBR encoding via ACM.

Even when writing to Matroska or OGM ???

If I understand this (http://virtualdubmod.sourceforge.net/?page=irclog) correctly, then the AVI container (or at least the way AVI files are decoded) is the problem and *not* ACM is...

[stephanV]

Is VirtualDubMod able to write VBR-MP3 correctly into AVI ???

Creating Matroska files with VirtualDubMod doesn't work :( The resulting files don't play back correctly. Neither with Media Player Classic (I use Haali Media Splitter and ffdshow) nor with VLC Media Player. The Video is stuttering and the sound seems to be completly broken (first some strane noise, then silence). I used x264 and LameMP3-VBR for encoding.

If you used Lame ACM for this it indeed wont work. Otherwise it should work, assuming you use up to date decoders. Normally, ACM codecs output to a WAV format, which requires a value for nBlockAlign and this must be a constant number of bytes. Hence, ABR/VBR is impossible.

I'm not sure why you are so stubborn trying to use ACM codecs to encode VBR in VirtualDub... it won't work... i told you that 5 posts ago or something... :)

[Inventive Software]

@StephenV: Excuse me, supporter for ACM here? I have used the LAME ACM codec for yonks, with absolutely no problems whatsoever. Admittedly I use 128 Kbits/sec CBR, which gives the quality I desire.

But I see what he's trying to do. And it definitely won't work. Use Psytel's AAC encoder (LC-AAC), then mux it into an AVI file. This should work.

[stephanV]

I never claimed there was anythong wrong with using CBR audio and VirtualDub

[thana]

Really? I must've missed a new build. Could you point me to the right one?
here you can find all pre-release builds for win32:
http://www.bunkus.org/videotools/mkvtoolnix/win32/pre/

and the up-to-date changelog is available here:
https://svn.bunkus.org/mosu/trunk/prog/video/mkvtoolnix/ChangeLog

[LoRd_MuldeR]

Normally, ACM codecs output to a WAV format, which requires a value for nBlockAlign and this must be a constant number of bytes. Hence, ABR/VBR is impossible.

But why does the LAME ACM-Codec include all those VBR-Modes then? For me the only problem seems to be that Audio and Video do not run synchroniously when using VBR in AVI. Since WAV does not contain any Video (of course it does not) there should be no problem for using ACM-Codecs with VBR in WAV files...


I'm not sure why you are so stubborn trying to use ACM codecs to encode VBR in VirtualDub... it won't work... i told you that 5 posts ago or something... :)

It just would be nice to get it working somehow... If nobody knows a solution, I'm giving up that. Don't worry ;)

[stephanV]

But why does the LAME ACM-Codec include all those VBR-Modes then? For me the only problem seems to be that Audio and Video do not run synchroniously when using VBR in AVI. Since WAV does not contain any Video (of course it does not) there should be no problem for using ACM-Codecs with VBR in WAV files...
You could notice a "wobble" in the pitch of the audio. I don't know why there are ABR modes in Lame, probably because in the case of MP3 you don't have to encapsulate the data in a container.


It just would be nice to get it working somehow... If nobody knows a solution, I'm giving up that. Don't worry ;)
It won't work. I'm not saying this because I don't want you to use VBR MP3 in AVI, or even AAC or Vorbis for that matter, at least for MP3 and AAC this works just fine IF you use the right tools (= AVIMux GUI, which for some reason is of no use to you). Those hysterical people saying it is a hack or bad a.) mostly dont know what they are talking about, b.) should shut up and c.) worry about more important things.

I'm saying this because there was a time I was trying these things too and, unfortunately, just found them to not work. Now, you may go ahead and try some more, but I'm not going to try to convince you any further. In fact, if you DO get it to work somehow, please report back. :)

[Stabmaster-Arson]

VBR lame mode in lame acm. If you want to create a standalone mp3 file vbr and you just save out the audio stream. Dont think peopple would want to do this often but at least its an option.

[Sharktooth]

and you resurrected a 5 years old thread to add that?
all the VBR audio and AVI has been explained to death in other threads...

[roozhou]

all the VBR audio and AVI has been explained to death in other threads...
VBR audio in AVI is OK, at least for MP3 and AAC. Simply do not use ancient ACM. Use modern tools like ffmpeg and AVIDemux.

[Sharktooth]

i know VBR audio in AVI is OK, it's just it was discussed to death...

[space1999]

Back to the topic:

AAC ACM Codec by fccHandler

Note: Currently this codec can only decode AAC, it cannot encode AAC!

http://fcchandler.home.comcast.net/~fcchandler/AACACM/

[space1999]

Minor "flaw" in the AAC ACM decoder by fcchandler:

SBR streams are played at half-speed.

But who uses HE-AAC today? :p

[ale5000]

It works perfectly with most HE-AAC (SBR) and HE-AACv2 (SBR and PS) files, so if you have a file that doesn't work fine it is better to report it.

[Midzuki]

Just tested v. 1.6 of the codec on a .AVI in VirtualDub 1.8.8. HE-AAC is detected, and played, at half the actual sample rate. No problems with HE-AAC in MKVs or FLVs, though.

[Midzuki]

Ooops, maybe the problem cannot be solved: :)

Originally posted by fccHandler (http://forums.virtualdub.org/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=19757&st=30)

I have no control over the sample rate in an AVI file. If the AVI audio header declares that the sample rate is 22050 Hz (as this one does), then that is indeed what you will hear.

[ale5000]

Try posting the file, your problem isn't necessarily the same of this one.

PS: There is a particular motive for still using such an old version of VirtualDub?

[Midzuki]

Try posting the file, your problem isn't necessarily the same of this one.

Done:

http://cid-5acf098e0ebae8d5.office.live.com/self.aspx/.Public/wvc1%5EMheaac.avi

PS: There is a particular motive for still using such an old version of VirtualDub?

It still works, and after disliking the version 1.9.x, I am afraid of upgrading. :)

[ale5000]

It still works, and after disliking the version 1.9.x, I am afraid of upgrading. :)VirtualDub 1.9.11 work perfectly for me, what is the thing that you dislike?

PS: VirtualDub doesn't have a setup so you can keep two versions at the same time.

[Midzuki]

The link does't work, try to upload it here: http://www.mediafire.com/

The link does work, but sometimes the Skydrive site gets "too busy" ;) Try it again, even if this means you have to use Internet Exploder one more time :D

[ale5000]

@Midzuki: This problem can't be solved without change both the AAC ACM Codec and VirtualDub.
I don't think it will happen soon.

PS: You can workaround the problem by remuxing the avi to mkv with MKVtoolnix before opening it in VirtualDub.

[Midzuki]

@ ale5000

thanks for confirming what I was afraid of :(

Anyway, at least the codec works fine for "normal" AAC in .AVI,
and this is what really matters, after all. :)

Now, if only we could convince fccHandler to build a DTS ACM codec... :devil:
or add DTS support to his AC3 ACM, ¿ why not ?
IIRC the source-code for the ac3filter ACM is publicly-available,
so if Valex could do it, then fccHandler can do it better. :p

[ale5000]

The latest version of AC3Filter ( http://ac3filter.net/projects/ac3filter/releases ) contains an AC3-DTS ACM codec (both 32/64-bit).
It should work for AVI files, not sure for other containers.

[Midzuki]

OK, maybe I don't know how to express myself in English,
even though I have thought otherwise since 1975. -.-

[mike20021969]

1:
As I understand it, if an audio track (e.g. off a CD) is encoded at 128kbps AAC or 128kbps mp3 (both CBR), the AAC @128kbps should be better than the mp3(?).

So how low would the AAC bitrate have to go to match the quality of the mp3?

2:
From the Nero AAC encoder download page: http://www.nero.com/eng/technologies-aac-codec.html

I was looking at the figures quoted for conversions:
"Easy to Love" "Die Fetten Jahre Sind Vorbei" (OST) WAV=38 MB, MP4=993 KB, MP3 1.75 MB
"Unbelievable" - EMF "Coyote Ugly Soundtrack" (OST) WAV=35.4 MB, MP4=914 KB, MP3=1.64 MB
"All By Myself" - Jamie O'Neal "Bridget Jones' Diary Soundtrack" (OST) WAV=46.3 MB, MP4=1.03 MB, MP3= 2.05 MB

It doesn't specify what the bitrate used is, but it must be extremely low (maybe 64kbps?)
To go, like in the first example, from 38MB to <1MB (MP4) - I cannot believe that miniscule file size of any the MP4 or even MP3 files will sound as good (exceptable to listen to) as the original WAV file.
Unfortunately there are no audio examples on that Nero page.

[LoRd_MuldeR]

1:
As I understand it, if an audio track (e.g. off a CD) is encoded at 128kbps AAC or 128kbps mp3 (both CBR), the AAC @128kbps should be better than the mp3(?).

AAC mainly has advantages over MP3 at lower bitrates, so at 128 kbps I would assume AAC to be superior. At 192 or even 256 kbps the differences will fade away.

So how low would the AAC bitrate have to go to match the quality of the mp3?

This cannot be answered generally, because it also depends on the individual content and on your listening preferences.

Also there is not the MP3 and and the AAC. There are various encoders for each format and their results can vary in quality (at the same bitrate).

2:
From the Nero AAC encoder download page: http://www.nero.com/eng/technologies-aac-codec.html

I was looking at the figures quoted for conversions:
"Easy to Love" "Die Fetten Jahre Sind Vorbei" (OST) WAV=38 MB, MP4=993 KB, MP3 1.75 MB
"Unbelievable" - EMF "Coyote Ugly Soundtrack" (OST) WAV=35.4 MB, MP4=914 KB, MP3=1.64 MB
"All By Myself" - Jamie O'Neal "Bridget Jones' Diary Soundtrack" (OST) WAV=46.3 MB, MP4=1.03 MB, MP3= 2.05 MB

It doesn't specify what the bitrate used is, but it must be extremely low (maybe 64kbps?)
To go, like in the first example, from 38MB to <1MB (MP4) - I cannot believe that miniscule file size of any the MP4 or even MP3 files will sound as good (exceptable to listen to) as the original WAV file.
Unfortunately there are no audio examples on that Nero page.

I would be careful with such comparisons. Especially if they are from the web-site of a company who tries to promote their own software ;)

Indeed they do not say what bitrates they used for MP3/AAC, what quality standard they used to decide the bitrates and what testing methodology they applied to measure the quality.

They don't even say what MP3 encoder software they used, which makes these results pretty much useless. So would highly recommend to do your own tests!


Here is a more useful test:
http://listening-tests.hydrogenaudio.org/sebastian/mf-128-1/results.htm