Which Codec/Container for Website/HTTP-Streaming (MPEG-4, VP6 etc.)?

[S_O]

I would like to have a another option for my current MPEG-4 Solution on my homepage:
I currently offer streams at 3 bitrates (56k, 128k, 768k) and 3 formats (RealMedia; MPEG-4; Flash).
Realmedia is just RealVideo10 / RealAudio (AAC, cook and Sipro), Flash is created using ffmpeg and MPEG-4, the one I would like to replace, is XviD Simple Profile + B-Frames with AMR (ffmpeg) or AAC Audio (using Nero) and then muxed with mp4box. This is played on the website with QuickTime. Unfortunately it works only when 3ivx is installed and still there is a box, that this movie is not supported. Unfortunately QT is not able to decode HE-AAC with the SBR part, so bitrate for Audio at lower bitrates is higer than for RealMedia, which of course means I got less bitrate left for video.
RealMedia offers much better quality than MPEG-4 in this situation.

So I installed QT 7 Preview with the hope that H.264/AAC in mp4 works flawlessy, but - of course - it doesn´t. I created a clip with nearly all H.264 features x264 offers (all except b-pyramid), and it worked, also it took much more resources than ffdshow. I muxed the clip with AAC and - nothing. I tried the one without audio - perfect. I disabled features one by one, etc. sometimes it works, but with another clip it won´t etc.
After testing several hours I came to a conclusion: H.264 in QT is not yet useable.

So I thought use Theora with Vorbis/Speex in Ogg using Fluendo Java-Applet, but Theora does not offer the quality I would like to have, and also I don´t know if Speex is supported by Fluendo Applet.

Then I saw the VP6-Java-Applet by On2. It uses a simple AVI with VP6.2 / Speex. But there is a problem, Speex is not suited for higher bitrates and Music, and there only seems be support for Speex (in the jar file I cannot find anything that looks like Jorbis). Another problem would of course be that VP6 isn´t available anymore, so you probably have to pay a lot of money for Applet + VP6 Encoder. I downloaded the Applet and created a Speex-VP6.2-AVI, but I couldn´t get it working (I have to admit, I did not test it extensively). Probably there is somekind of protection in it, that prevents videos not hosted on On2 from being played.

Then I read that VideoLan-Client has ActiveX and Mozilla plug-in. I thought perfect, I can also use HE-AAC here, I tried it and it worked fine. But then the problem: VLC does not support AMR. :(
So my next thought: I can use matroska (muxing also makes less trouble than mp4), with H.264 and Vorbis/Speex.
Next problem: matroska does not support Speex :( :(

So, my question now, has anybody here a nice solution with website player (at least working in IE/Mozilla) that works with all bitrates without the need to install lot´s of stuff at the user?

One last thing: Don´t mention Windows Media, i don´t like and I won´t use it.

[iwod]

I have heard upcoming Flash 8 Player will support Vp6... ( And i already complain why not at last have a Vp7 in it? )

So your user will only have to install Flash 8 ( Which i am sure they will do it not only just because of your website, everyone generally need flash install anyway )..........

[Sharktooth]

on2'a java player works best with vp6.2 and on2's AVC audio (dont confuse it with MPEG-4 AVC) that has more ore less the same efficiency of mp3pro.
dont know if there are plans to update the java player with vp7.
however the java solution is no longer available on their shop :(

[bond]

Realmedia is just RealVideo10 / RealAudio (AAC, cook and Sipro), Flash is created using ffmpeg and MPEG-4, the one I would like to replace, is XviD Simple Profile + B-Frames with AMR (ffmpeg) or AAC Audio (using Nero) and then muxed with mp4box. This is played on the website with QuickTime. Unfortunately it works only when 3ivx is installed and still there is a box, that this movie is not supported.why is 3ivx needed? qt can play mpeg-4 sp and aac on its own without needing 3ivx

Unfortunately QT is not able to decode HE-AAC with the SBR part, so bitrate for Audio at lower bitrates is higer than for RealMedia, which of course means I got less bitrate left for video.
RealMedia offers much better quality than MPEG-4 in this situation.this makes no sense. you use realaudio aac (obviously also not he-aac), but mean that qt is bad because its not supporting he-aac. realplayer also doesnt support he-aac and real's aac codec should be worst than nero's and apple's
nothing forces you to use he-aac at low bitrates. simply use normal aac with a low bitrate and be happy as you are happy atm with realaudio aac too it seems

So I thought use Theora with Vorbis/Speex in Ogg using Fluendo Java-Applet, but Theora does not offer the quality I would like to have, and also I don´t know if Speex is supported by Fluendo Applet.speex is not supported afaik, but why not use vorbis at low bitrates? vorbis is a great codec on low bitrates and on par with cook or wma9 for example (dunno about aac)

Then I read that VideoLan-Client has ActiveX and Mozilla plug-in. I thought perfect, I can also use HE-AAC here, I tried it and it worked fine. But then the problem: VLC does not support AMR. :(gpac also offers a mozilla plugin which i assume should support asp, avc, aac and amr. but i never tried it

So my next thought: I can use matroska (muxing also makes less trouble than mp4), with H.264 and Vorbis/Speex.
Next problem: matroska does not support Speex :( :(why should mkv muxing make less problems than mp4 muxing?

[S_O]

I have heard upcoming Flash 8 Player will support Vp6... ( And i already complain why not at last have a Vp7 in it? )Probably there won´t be any free tool to encode in the near feature (maybe ffmpeg adds VP6 someday). Also I would prefer an open standard.
on2'a java player works best with vp6.2 and on2's AVC audio (dont confuse it with MPEG-4 AVC) that has more ore less the same efficiency of mp3pro.
dont know if there are plans to update the java player with vp7.
however the java solution is no longer available on their shop Same problem: It´s not free
why is 3ivx needed? qt can play mpeg-4 sp and aac on its own without needing 3ivxWithout 3ivx QT doesn´t decode B-Frames. Without B-Frames quality is much worse (nearly same level as Flash/H.263) (I mean when I encode it without B-Frames, not when QT plays only every 3rd frame).
this makes no sense. you use realaudio aac (obviously also not he-aac), but mean that qt is bad because its not supporting he-aac. realplayer also doesnt support he-aac and real's aac codec should be worst than nero's and apple's
nothing forces you to use he-aac at low bitrates. simply use normal aac with a low bitrate and be happy as you are happy atm with realaudio aac too it seemsFirst: RealPlayer 10 does support HE-AAC. Second: I can encode Audio with Nero and mux it to RealMedia later.
As said, there are 3 bitrates:
56k: I use Sipro Voice at 6,5kbps
128k: I use cook at 16kbps (cook is better in my opinion than HE-AAC at this bitrate)
768k: I use LC-AAC at 128kbps
For MPEG-4
56k: I use AMR at 6kbps
128k: I (have to) use LC-AAC at 16-30kbps
768k: I use LC-AAC at 128kbps
What I mean is, if QT would support HE-AAC, I could use it at 16kbps with much better quality than LC-AAC.
speex is not supported afaik, but why not use vorbis at low bitrates? vorbis is a great codec on low bitrates and on par with cook or wma9 for example (dunno about aac)I know Vorbis is great, also at low bitrates. But for ~6kbps Speex is far superior, especially for voice.
Also AFAIK the only Vorbis encoder supporting such low bitrates is Garf´s "Floggy"-experiment years ago, which can be found in GT3b1.
gpac also offers a mozilla plugin which i assume should support asp, avc, aac and amr. but i never tried itUnfortunately most people visiting the site are using IE :( I have to support it too.
why should mkv muxing make less problems than mp4 muxing?For MP4 there are broken tools (MP4UI), things like ISMA-compatibility and the little bit different 3gp (which is needed for AMR, but does it officially support H.264??), often for some weird reasons you first have to create a mp4 with the video, then you can add the audio, if you do it the other way round file won´t play or video only and things like that. And often QT behaves different than 3ivx-Splitter or Haali´s splitter, creating a mp4 that works everywhere isn´t simple. matroska is much easier to use in my opinion.

[bond]

Without 3ivx QT doesn´t decode B-Frames. Without B-Frames quality is much worse (nearly same level as Flash/H.263) (I mean when I encode it without B-Frames, not when QT plays only every 3rd frame).ok ic

First: RealPlayer 10 does support HE-AAC.i doubt that normal realplayer installer includes he-aac. i know that there are extra plugins which enable it, but who uses that? not joe average

What I mean is, if QT would support HE-AAC, I could use it at 16kbps with much better quality than LC-AAC.well use he-aac, and tell people to use mplayer or videolan ;)

For MP4 there are broken tools (MP4UI)mp4ui is not broken when you dont use it with b-frames

things like ISMA-compatibilitywhats wrong with it? does anyone need it? no. does anyone need to care about it? no.

and the little bit different 3gp (which is needed for AMR, but does it officially support H.264??)yes, 3gp supports h.264

often for some weird reasons you first have to create a mp4 with the video, then you can add the audio, if you do it the other way round file won´t play or video only and things like that.with what tool does that happen?
i heavily doubt that this happens with every mp4 tool existing...

And often QT behaves different than 3ivx-Splitter or Haali´s splitter, creating a mp4 that works everywhere isn´t simple. matroska is much easier to use in my opinion. does qt support matroska?

basically there is one big tool for creating matroska files, and thats mkvmerge
for mp4 the equivalent to mkvmerge is mp4box which is also a perfectly working tool
its funny that the existance of crappy mp4 tools should make mp4 worse than mkv. if there are crappy tools simply dont use them, after all all you need is one good one: mp4box
simply because mkv doesnt really give you the choice of choosing between lots of different tools doesnt make it better

[S_O]

i doubt that normal realplayer installer includes he-aac. i know that there are extra plugins which enable it, but who uses that? not joe averageRealPlayer 10 does support playback of HE-AAC without the need for any plug-in. It can be played nativly in RealMedia (FourCC: racp) and mp4.
If you don´t trust me, check it yourself or see what Karl posted:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=73035&highlight=HE-AAC
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=68245&highlight=HE-AAC (see section "RealAudio 10 : AAC and HE-AAC" in the first post).
well use he-aac, and tell people to use mplayer or videolan That´s what I´m trying: But these files are not designed for download, but for playback on the website, meaning the player is embedded.
mp4ui is not broken when you dont use it with b-framesMaybe it has been fixed, but some time ago it was broken and all people were told not to use it.
whats wrong with it? does anyone need it? no. does anyone need to care about it? no.Isn´t ISMA needed to ensure the file is streamable?
with what tool does that happen?
i heavily doubt that this happens with every mp4 tool existing...Typically mp4creator with H.264 & AMR in 3gp. Playback often only works when muxed in the right order.
basically there is one big tool for creating matroska files, and thats mkvmerge
for mp4 the equivalent to mkvmerge is mp4box which is also a perfectly working toolCurrently mp4box seems to support everything, but some time ago it had no support for raw streams for example.
its funny that the existance of crappy mp4 tools should make mp4 worse than mkv.It doesn´t make mp4 worse. It cannot make mp4 worse, because mp4 itself isn´t affected in any way. But it makes mp4 less useable and more complicated (because you have to take care that the tool you are currently using and the way you are using it is compaible with the player).
simply because mkv doesnt really give you the choice of choosing between lots of different tools doesnt make it betterNo. But some time ago it was:
mkv: One good working tool
mp4: Two more or less working tools with limited features.
Note that I wrote "some time ago". It seems that mp4box has become much better.

Now, please back to topic (a good Codec/Container/Player solution for embedded website playing) not a mp4 vs. matroska quarrel.

[the Mad Duke]

[QUOTE=Sharktooth
however the java solution is no longer available on their shop :([/QUOTE]

It's still available if this is what you are referring to:

http://www.on2.com/personal_video.php

[bond]

RealPlayer 10 does support playback of HE-AAC without the need for any plug-in. It can be played nativly in RealMedia (FourCC: racp) and mp4.
If you don´t trust me, check it yourself or see what Karl posted:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=73035&highlight=HE-AAC
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=68245&highlight=HE-AAC (see section "RealAudio 10 : AAC and HE-AAC" in the first post).cool, didnt know that

you can tell people to play your .mp4 files with realplayer pro (pro because only pro includes the mpeg-4 sp (+ b-frames) video plugin)

Maybe it has been fixed, but some time ago it was broken and all people were told not to use it.yeah i tell people, who dont know the stuff, to not use it

Isn´t ISMA needed to ensure the file is streamable?no

Typically mp4creator with H.264 & AMR in 3gp. Playback often only works when muxed in the right order.strange, did you file a bug report?

[S_O]

strange, did you file a bug report?No.
I yust found out the problem is even worse: Muxing H.264 (from raw stream) doesn´t seem to work at all with mp4creator, yust when audio is muxed first it displays error messages (when muxing the video):
MP4ERROR: MP4File::FindIntegerProperty: no such property - moov.iods.visualProfileLevelId
MP4ERROR: MP4File::FindIntegerProperty: no such property - moov.iods.visualProfileLevelId
MP4ERROR: MP4File::FindIntegerProperty: no such property - moov.iods.audioProfileLevelId
MakeIsmaCompliant:can't make ISMA compliant when file contains an samr track
I simply did the first time:
mp4creator -create=audio.amr test.3gp
mp4creator -create=video.264 -rate=25 test.3gp

And then I tried
mp4creator -create=video.264 -rate=25 test.3gp
mp4creator -create=audio.amr test.3gp

Result: Both files are not playable (but there are not bit-identical):
QT7 closes without any notice when I start playing.
Haali´s Splitter: The DS-graph is build correctly, audio is played, but no picture and ffdshow says video resolution is 16x16
VideoLAN: Both files play fine, but no audio (VLC does not support AMR).
The same thing happens when I only mux the video, also when the file extension is mp4.
you can tell people to play your .mp4 files with realplayer pro (pro because only pro includes the mpeg-4 sp (+ b-frames) video plugin)I can also tell them to buy the specs and then they have to code a nice player themselves.
If you go on a website, like to watch a clip and the website tells you "please buy player XY", you will of course do so. I like to have a completly free solution, meaning no cost for me, no cost for users.


I yust tried the GPAC mozilla plug-in. After I couldn´t find a compile anywhere, I downloaded the source and compiled it myself. I yust needed one source package from mozilla and compilation (and even linking) was fine. Realizing the resulting DLL is exactly 28KB I suspected it not to work. I was right. When I copied it in the plug-ins directory of firefox, the plug-in shows up in about:plugins, but it doesn´t work. When create a page with embed type="application/x-gpac" (which is only registered by gpac plugin) nothing happens.
So I thought it probably needs Osmo4. Here compilation was not as easy, I needed lots of libraries (FAAD2.1, ffmpeg, MAD, vorbis, theora, xvid, libxml, freetype ... ). But now I have a full compile of Osmo4 version 0.4.0 RC2 with all and everything. Player works fine, but mozilla plug-in still refuses to work. Probably it doesn´t find the Osmo4 stuff. What do I need to do?

[CruNcher]

S_O for what a kind of website do you need this exactly ?

[Sharktooth]

It's still available if this is what you are referring to:

http://www.on2.com/personal_video.php
Cool! and it supports VP7 too... that's really interesting.

[S_O]

S_O for what a kind of website do you need this exactly ?For the homepage of my school. So, many people (parents, teachers) visiting the homepage probably don´t even know how to install a program on Windows that comes with setup.
Cool! and it supports VP7 too... that's really interesting.The encoder, yes, but I cannot find anything that says the Java-applet supports VP7.

[Latexxx]

For the homepage of my school. So, many people (parents, teachers) visiting the homepage probably don´t even know how to install a program on Windows that comes with setup.
Then grab a copy of Quicktime 7 pro and encode to avc using. If you use their mov container, it should be possible to embed the video clip so that IE will auto download QT for playback. This solution isn't free and doesn't support amr audio but it is the userfriendly solution.

[SeeMoreDigital]

I've been using MPEG4 AVC ever since Apple launched the preview version of QuickTime Player 7 (for WinXP). All my encodes have been optimised for use with internet connections of running at a minimum of 512K.

Anyway, if you want to see some examples I've generated for one of my clients, look here (http://www.stuartgraham.homechoice.co.uk/).


Cheers

[S_O]

Then grab a copy of Quicktime 7 pro and encode to avc using. If you use their mov container, it should be possible to embed the video clip so that IE will auto download QT for playback. This solution isn't free and doesn't support amr audio but it is the userfriendly solution.Isn´t it possible to use ffmpeg to mux a mov with x264/nero-aac?
I've been using MPEG4 AVC ever since Apple launched the preview version of QuickTime Player 7 (for WinXP). All my encodes have been optimised for use with internet connections of running at a minimum of 512K.

Anyway, if you want to see some examples I've generated for one of my clients, look here.How did you create the files? I know you encoded video with x264 and audio is HE-AAC, so you probably used Nero, but how did you mux into mov?

I tried to remux the C_C.mov to mp4 and see if QT7 plays it still fine. What I did:
First I opened the file in VLC and it plays it also fine. I tried to remux it to mp4. Resulting file seems to contain video and audio, but only audio is played (in MPC and VLC). QT7 crashed. mp4box (0.4.0 RC2) info tells me that there are 2 streams in it, one aac and one H.264. I extract both and mux them again using mp4box. mp4box gives me lot´s of warnings (the same several hundred times):WARNING: NAL Unit type 26 not handled - addingThe output file also only plays audio.
Next idea: DirectShow. Playing in GraphEdit works perfect (using Haali´s splitter, ffdshow and CoreAAC). Remux to MP4 using 3ivx Muxer is not possible, muxing to matroska also fails using Gabest´s old matroskamuxer, muxing to avi is also not possible. I use Dump writer to create a .264 raw file. mp4box doesn´t accept it.

Next idea: ffmpeg. I tried to remux .h264. mp4box doesn´t accept the file (which is bit-identical to the one the Dump writer has created). I try to remux to mp4.
Playing in MPC:Haali Media Splitter: MP4: could not find avcC box.Playing in VLC: no video, playing starts, yust seekbar. QT7 refuses to play. mp4box info says:File has no MPEG4 IOD/ODExtract raw stream, file is bit-identical to the other not working raw files.
Now I open one of those file in a hexeditor: It seems that the start codes are broken/missing. In the entire file I cannot find "0x000001" even a single time. But the beginning of the file is, except the start code exatly the same as in other x264 created raw streams. When I remove the first 2 byte and add "0x00000001" the file is identical until the next "0x00000001" (2 bytes after ...org/x264.html). Only replacing the first start code doesn´t work: mp4box crashes.
So my last try: mkvmerge / mkvextract: I add the mov file, no problem. Resulting mkv file plays fine!
mkvextract to raw file: Doesn´t work, file won´t import in mp4box, but it´s not identical to the others. Also no correct start codes here, but different.
That´s what I mean when I say "muxing [matroska] also makes less trouble than mp4".
Anybody knows a solution? Please try to remux this file to mp4:
http://www.stuartgraham.homechoice.co.uk/movies/C_C.mov
Using QT 7 Pro (which I do not have) is cheating :p

[Latexxx]

Isn´t it possible to use ffmpeg to mux a mov with x264/nero-aac?
How did you create the files? I know you encoded video with x264 and audio is HE-AAC, so you probably used Nero, but how did you mux into mov.

It should be possible to open a video track encoded using x264 in Quicktime pro and then copy-paste the audio track from another quicktime window. There is another thread somewhere describing what settings you can use with x264 to get Quicktime support it.
If you decide to get a copy Quicktime pro, I'd use Quicktime's aac encoder for audio because it's known to be somewhat better than Nero's encoder.

[bond]

this nal unit type error makes me think that your stream is somehow f*ed up. but than again i also havent been able to remux an avc stream encoded to .mov with qt7 to .mp4 not in qt7 successfully, dunno what apple does with the stream or what the mov demuxer tools do wrong to the avc stream when extracting...
btw .264 and .h264 is the same (a raw avc bitstream)

to make it short: the only way to remux avc-in-mov to avc-in-mp4 is qt7

[SeeMoreDigital]

How did you create the files? I know you encoded video with x264 and audio is HE-AAC, so you probably used Nero, but how did you mux into mov?I used QuickTime Player Pro 7 to do this ;)

To be more accurate... First you have to mux the audio and video streams into .MP4 (I use YAMB for this) and then you open the MP4 file in QT7 Pro and use the "Save as..." option to re-mux the streams into the .MOV container.

I tried to remux the C_C.mov to mp4 and see if QT7 plays it still fine..... QT7 Pro has an option to re-mux .MOV files (containing MPEG-4 video and AAC audio) back to .MP4...... Like this: -

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9716/qt7propassthroughoption6gv.png

Let me know if you have any trouble working it out?


Cheers

[ak]

Anybody knows a solution? Please try to remux this file to mp4:
http://www.stuartgraham.homechoice.co.uk/movies/C_C.mov
Using QT 7 Pro (which I do not have) is cheating :p
Isn't audio fsckd up in some way (or mp4UI 1.0 RC 2 bit outdated for that matter)?

Well remuxing basically works, sort of:
> mp4creator -e 4 C_C.mov
> mv C_C.mov.t4 vid.264

as mp4creator won't extract audio track go another route:
> ffmpeg -i C_C.mov -vn -acodec copy bla.mp4
> mp4creator -e 1 bla.mp4
> mv bla.mp4.t1 aud.aac

> mp4box -add vid.264 -add aud.aac C_C.mp4

It plays in mplayer/vlc/osmo/mp4ip, no idea about qt though.

Now, what did I win? :)

[S_O]

Let me know if you have any trouble working it out?The problem is that´s a pro feature
mp4creator -e 4 C_C.movWow!! mp4creator was the only tool I didn´t test. I didn´t know that it supports mov demuxing. It is so far the only tool supporting extraction of valid h264 raw-stream from mov (but no audio...).
Thank you very much, you found the solution!

Multiplexing with mp4box works fine, file can be played in VLC, MPC (Haali) and even QT7 without any problem (the only problem I notice is at 1 min 3 sec; the video breaks here, but in all players and also in originally mov. This could happend during remuxing mp4->mov with QT7Pro, muxing the raw H.264 in mp4 or already while encoding using x264 (bug in x264??)).

@SeeMoreDigital: Why do you use .mov when .mp4 works yust as perfect?

btw .264 and .h264 is the same (a raw avc bitstream)I know, I normally always use .264 as extension, but ffmpeg forces me to use .h264 (with .264 it doesn´t know that I mean a simple raw stream).
to make it short: the only way to remux avc-in-mov to avc-in-mp4 is qt7No, ak showed us it´s possible, with free, open-source software only.

[SeeMoreDigital]

@SeeMoreDigital: Why do you use .mov when .mp4 works yust as perfect?For a couple of reasons really. The first is, it's the most logical container for use with QuickTime player and the second is, QT7 makes it very easy to alter the MOV "container level" settings (not that you can't do this in MP4 too!): -

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/1811/qt7gui6gs.png


Cheers

[bond]

The problem is that´s a pro feature
Wow!! mp4creator was the only tool I didn´t test. I didn´t know that it supports mov demuxing. It is so far the only tool supporting extraction of valid h264 raw-stream from mov (but no audio...).
Thank you very much, you found the solution!wow, works indeed. i get some error messages while extracting but the extracted stream seems to be fine and can indeed be remuxed to .mp4!

thx for that finding! :)

For a couple of reasons really. The first is, it's the most logical container for use with QuickTime playerwell so is .mp4. as you surely know .mp4 is very similar to .mov and thats also propably the reason why apple supports it that much and thats propably also the reason why mp4creator, which doesnt support .mov normally, is able to demux the raw avc stream from .mov (avc is stored extactly the same way in .mov as in .mp4)

and the second is, QT7 makes it very easy to alter the MOV "container level" settings (not that you can't do this in MP4 too!)as you say thats possible with .mp4 too in qt

i think the one reason you told me why you prefer mov over mp4 is that mov supports this quickstart feature, but i wonder why this doesnt work with mp4

I know, I normally always use .264 as extension, but ffmpeg forces me to use .h264 (with .264 it doesn´t know that I mean a simple raw stream).try ffmpeg -f h264 -i "input.264"

[SeeMoreDigital]

i think the one reason you told me why you prefer mov over mp4 is that mov supports this quickstart feature, but i wonder why this doesnt work with mp4Now you mention it... the quickstart feature is much improved for .MP4 contained files via QT7 :)

I will have to do some more tests.... But it might indeed be time to drop .MOV in favour of .MP4 :D


Cheers

[S_O]

try ffmpeg -f h264 -i "input.264"
But I had ffmpeg -i c_c.mov -an -vcodec copy video.h264
But that´s not worth to discuss, it takes me less than a second to rename the file if I like to..
well so is .mp4. as you surely know .mp4 is very similar to .mov and thats also propably the reason why apple supports it that much and thats propably also the reason why mp4creator, which doesnt support .mov normally, is able to demux the raw avc stream from .mov (avc is stored extactly the same way in .mov as in .mp4)Could that also be the reason for the Haali Splitter to play the mov with avc/aac yust perfect?
i think the one reason you told me why you prefer mov over mp4 is that mov supports this quickstart feature, but i wonder why this doesnt work with mp4What is the advantage of QuickStart? I yust compared the MP4 movies (ASP/AAC) on my school´s page with your AVC/AAC-mov: I couldn´t notice any difference, both files directly start playing when I open the page.

I think I´ll use AVC/AAC in MP4 with QT7, it still seems the most practical solution, also I deprecated it first. I´ll look (and maybe post) in the x264 for QT7 thread in MPEG-4 AVC Forum.

[bond]

But I had ffmpeg -i c_c.mov -an -vcodec copy video.h264i think ffmpeg is not able to demux avc from mov correctly

Could that also be the reason for the Haali Splitter to play the mov with avc/aac yust perfect?yes

I think I´ll use AVC/AAC in MP4 with QT7, it still seems the most practical solution, also I deprecated it first. I´ll look (and maybe post) in the x264 for QT7 thread in MPEG-4 AVC Forum. these files should be playable also in videolan and mplayer, just in case you meet people not wanting, having qt7 installed

[S_O]

i think ffmpeg is not able to demux avc from mov correctlyTo find that out I had to try it. With an .h264 extension (unbelievable that yust one character can be discussed so long...)
these files should be playable also in videolan and mplayer, just in case you meet people not wanting, having qt7 installedAnd of course every DS-based player with Haali Splitter and ffdshow (with H.264 and AAC Decoder enabled) installed.
But for embed website playing there is no (good) alternative to QuickTime. But of course, after downloading, nearly all players are better than QT7 on Windows.

[bond]

To find that out I had to try it. With an .h264 extension (unbelievable that yust one character can be discussed so long...)i am not talking about the extension at all...

[S_O]

i am not talking about the extension at all...I don´t answer you anymore, otherwise this thread will get at least 27 pages :D