VHS audio

[MG26]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to ask but is it possible to use a VHS recorder/player as an audio-only tape recorder/player? I am a musician and I'm trying to obtain reel-to-reel analog recording quality without all the disadvantages of using a reel-to-reel tape machine.

If it is possible, would there be any advantage in using the VHS as an audio tape recorder? I was thinking that the sheer physical size of the half-inch tape in a VHS cassette would mean that it has a lot more available bandwidth for sound than for, say, an audio cassette tape. This is important to me because I'm trying to record some frequencies at unrealistic levels.

I presume that it probably is possible to use a VHS tape as an audio-only tape, but is it possible to achieve this without modifying the VHS recording machine itself (i.e. by simply wiring it up to a line input sound source)?

thanks in advance

[Shinigami-Sama]

I don't think you can do anything like that, not without heavy mods that is

[Sirber]

I think the same way. Most of the tape is linked with the "video heads" while "audio head" only use a little part of it. I think it's physicly impossible.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Hi and welcome to the forum,

Unfortunately VHS tape recorders don't make for good analogue audio recorders... not even the ones that offer "Hi-Fi" recording - which is by far the best audio recording method!

The "Hi-Fi" recording mode provides a frequency range of 20Hz to 20KHz, however the dynamic range offered can make the audio sound quite compressed.

A few of the Panasonic "Hi-Fi" models manufactured in the early-to-mid eighties offered dbx circuitry (an off-shoot from their cassette tape deck technology partnership with dbx) which was about the best you could get ;)


Cheers

[CWR03]

I agree, VHS is good but not at all great. If you only want to capture/record stereo audio, why not plug your mics into your computer? The standard .wav recording settings are equivalent to CD audio.

[Shinigami-Sama]

or you could go for flag in ogg possibly?
lossless

[MG26]

:( Not such a good idea then. It's not too bad, because reel-to-reels are very cheap right now. It's just that it's always better to handle self-contained cassettes/cartridges than rolls of tape (trad audio tape flakes oxide quickly, unlike VHS or audio cassettes). If I can find one of those old 80s VCRs with mechanical mechanisms I will try recording just audio with it - maybe with a television hooked up.

Regarding the suggestions and comments about other ways to capture a sound, I am grateful but the idea is/was to make tape specialness a part of the sound, i.e. analogue effects. Touching one of the spinning spools to affect the speed, recording a super-hot signal to achieve tape saturation at specific frequencies, letting the bias and tape hiss bind the music together like fluid joined-up handwriting, etc. The experimental music I compose and produce contains inaudible frequencies that are meant to be heard with other organs than just the ears, and which I intend to show up for philosophical reasons on an oscilloscope/spectrum analyser. Reverb gives an impression of wide-open space at the expense of bandwidth, when recording barely-audible frequencies, making for a very quiet recording with lots of hiss, which would be mitigated by a medium with lots of bandwidth (e.g. tape).

Thanks to everyone for your input. I'm always looking for new ways to improve my studio, but to be honest I'm just not going to use CD or digital formats lossy or not for my music.

[Shinigami-Sama]

there are programs out there to mimic those effects I'm sure.

[MG26]

there are programs out there to mimic those effects I'm sure.

Yes. Most are VST effects. I've used them in the past and discarded them as I progressed in knowledge and ability. Digital effects mimic analogue effects badly, because there is an enormous difference in bitrate between analogue and even the best of digital audio, which is CD audio.

Computer-based productions have a LONG way to go before they can come anywhere close to being capable of substituting.

Look up the best bitrate for virtual studios like Cubase, and the bitrate for CD, then vinyl, then tape. You will see that the programs you refer to are merely toys for children, not tools for musicians.

I've been doing this for some time, and know what I'm talking about. You may not appreciate that an artist is always looking for new and different means of creative expression, not the mundane and mediocre such as VST effects. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[MG26]

As if I would want to "mimic" anything or anyone. :rolleyes:

[feedback]

I think I know what you are talking about. Like the sound one used to get from the old tube amplifiers...you actually look for that kind of distortion... it is desired.

I agree that sometimes even though digital audio is more precise it is a little colder. You don't get that warm sound. Like the mellow tone of a 1950 Martin Guitar. The wood has aged and brought with it something that cannot be copied digitally... at least not to one's satifaction.
I guess that is why the Stradivarius Violin is still so exceptional.

Sorry just reminiscing about the good old days.

Regards:)

[CWR03]

There are still problems using a VCR - one is that the only way to get any quality is to use a Hi-Fi unit, and you can't slow the tape during playback because of the way the recording is made in stripes across the tape instead of linear - the tracks would misalign and you'd either have sound alternating with white noise or no sound at all. Another is that an older VCR records with one tiny head in a linear fashion, with sound quality equivalent to a cassette tape, and only in mono unless you're lucky enough to find one of the rare stereo units. All VCRs have at least the one linear head, and usually allow you to turn off the Hi-Fi audio manually.

[SeeMoreDigital]

If I can find one of those old 80s VCRs with mechanical mechanisms I will try recording just audio with it - maybe with a television hooked up.If I remember correctly, the first widely released Panasonic VHS decks with Hi-Fi audio (and dbx encoder/decoder) were the NV-830 and NV-850. Both could yield dynamic ranges of 80dB or more, with
wow/flutter of 0.005% WRMS or less, recording via the helical track... Pretty good for 20+ years ago!

I'm not sure how long Panasonic's relationship with dbx lasted. But all compatible decks are marked (on the rear) with the dbx (http://www.dbxpro.com/) logo.

If you can't find a VHS deck, you might have more luck finding an dbx cassette tape deck (Panasonic or Kenwood) or even an external dbx dynamic range expander with noise reduction system - such as the dbx 228. Which technically can be connected to any cassette or reel-to-reel tape deck... It might even be possible to connect one of these units to other makes/models of Hi-Fi VHS/S-VHS decks (never tried this combination myself though).


Good luck

[smok3]

CWR03 said it all, anyway, you could lookup for some 4 channel analog recorders (taskam did those irc) that use standard audio casettes, but can record at higher speeds.

The winner would be an old 2 channel studio machine (studer maybe), iam sure a lot of radio stations are throwing this out nowadays (especially if you like to edit with scisors&tape - they can make for some interesting experiments).

[MG26]

Thanks to everyone for the useful advice. Interesting regarding the 80dB dynamic range of the old Panasonic VCRs. We used to have one in the house as a child - it was a very sturdy piece of quality gear. It would definitely stand up to abusive treatment. What I find attractive about old tape recorded with a hot signal (up to saturation) is the way some low-end frequencies sound so dead and lifeless, with a nice lispy hiss, and so smooth that you can't tell when the sound begins or ends. You can hear this unique tape sound whenever the bass and drum was deliberately pronounced, for example in 70s cop shows (e.g. The Sweeney) or old Bruce Lee movies. You don't hear that orchestral type of sound anymore. The tape makes it sound like there are sympathetic harmonics - very intimate.

I'm not going to go with a Tascam 4-track recorder - I don't want to use audio cassette tapes.

Using a large VHS tape for audio, it would be easier to cut and stick together bits of tape at an angle (I used to do it with Sellotape and audio cassette tape), and achieve pitch-bending by touching the spinning spools. A dirty audio cassette tape sounds grungy, but because of the larger area to be magnetized, a dirty 1/2-inch tape still sounds smooth. I think I could also make a tape delay from a VHS. Got to keep experimenting.

Thanks :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

I must admit the idea of turning the VHS tape medium into an dedicated analogue tape recorder is certainly an interesting one!

I have to say I still love the sound analogue produces. Technically, I guess VHS tape could yield eight or even twelve tracks...

Even if VHS is reaching the end of it's life as an video capturing medium, who knows, it could live on as an analogue audio recorder... The S-VHS tape technology is certainly good enough!

Now who can we get to build them?


Cheers

[Shinigami-Sama]

hmmm
I'm sure if you go an old repair store where they actulay repair stuff you ask them to<and not send it somewhere> mod one for you

[smok3]

i know there were systems that turned vhs video heads into digital recorders...

mg26: lmao