Does it make sense to convert a stereo audio track of a movie to sorround?

[SenorKaffee]

I´m currently revising some home-made movie clips for a collection on DVD. They only have a stereo audio track. There are a lot of guides to convert stereo music to surround, does it make sense to use them for such an audio track?

I think most DVD-players automatically distribute the two channels appropriately when a sorround set is connected to them - in this case it would be just a waste of bitrate to convert, wouldn't it?

[ursamtl]

You bring up a good point that is often made. It depends on what you want and what your equipment is capable of doing with the sound. DVD players by themselves do not normally do the upmixing. Most newer playback receivers (except for budget systems) usually take care of presenting a pseudo-surround output by processing the stereo track using either Dolby Pro Logic II, Neo:6 or else some digital delay/reverb room simulation. The latter usually sound "gimicky." The Pro Logic II and Neo:6 systems can actually provide fairly decent surround depending on the source material. Unlike the room simulation circuits, they actually attempt to use ambience information already present in the audio. If you're happy with the results these give you, then by all means do not bother converting the stereo tracks to surround. Spend your time in pursuit of whatever is important to you.

However, some of us are dissatisfied with the results of these built-in playback systems. I personally hate the room simulation stuff because it invariably sounds like some cheap effect and it ruins some part of the audio. As for Dolby, Neo:6, etc., they do a decent job, especially for movies, but I don't find them as good for music (which is my main interest). Even home movies can benefit from custom methods. For instance, a couple of months after I completed my V.I plugin (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85446), I received a very touching email from a person who restored some very old family video footage and was very happy with the surround sound the plugin gave the project. I also heard from a music professional who told me he'd tried all the methods here and just couldn't get over how good V.I sounded. I'm sure those who worked hard to put the other methods together have received similar positive feedback for their projects. Obviously, these conversions work for some people or they wouldn't bother doing them

So, all I can say is try a couple of the upmixing methods and if you like the results, continue. If not, you can always stick with what your receiver gives you.

Regards,
Steve.

[bobcat56458]

I would echo what ursmtl has stated. I have an older surround sound system that does DD 5.1 and Prologic I, but does not do Prologic II. In my case it can be worth the time to convert a stereo track to DD 5.1 that has a Prologic II soundtrack so I can enjoy the benefit of discrete full range rear left & right sound on my system. The movie, or TV program must have been encoded for Prologic sound to really get the benefit of this though. I also enjoy ursmtl’s V.I plugin for taking a stereo music track, and making it into a surround soundtrack on a DVD. I may be the guy ursmtl spoke of that converted an old family video into surround sound using his method. It was some old VHS camcorder footage I shot while making a family Christmas cassette (no CD’s at the time) of the family members singing in my studio. I synced this up with the DAT audio master, and used ursmtl’s method to make a DVD with a DD 5.1 soundtrack, and it worked out well. Nero with NeroVision Express 3 has a new plugin for encoding DD 5.1 surround from a stereo video. I am less than pleased with it though because it is not up to Prologic II standards. WinDVD has a stereo to surround playback system called “ICE” that they claim works well with converting a stereo source from like a camcorder into surround sound, it only works with playback, and not encoding. You can however using WinDVD, and GraphEdit encode it into a 6 channel wave file that can be made into a DD 5.1 DVD soundtrack using Besweet or some other software that does 6 waves to DD 5.1 conversion. There is a guide on how to do this in the surround guides, it is made for Prologic II but you can use “ICE” as well. The downside of all this conversion is it is very time consuming.

[SenorKaffee]

Thanks for your comments - I think I will try the V.I. plugin method and see for myself. ^^

[johnman]

Thanks for your comments - I think I will try the V.I. plugin method and see for myself. ^^

Dont forget to post the results ;)

[daphy]

I would echo what ursmtl has stated. I have an older surround sound system that does DD 5.1 and Prologic I, but does not do Prologic II. Interesting point: I´ve upgraded my system some month ago and was really surprised what the new encoders could make out of a stereo file. (My old Yammy retires after 6 years :rolleyes: )

As Steve said - tryout some methodes and decide what´s the best for you.

BTW
A copuple days ago, I bought a fine DVD-(Video/Audio/SACD)-Player (Yamaha S657) which is absolutely recommendable. It includes serveral gimicks like a own DTS decoder, a ProLogic II decoder, internal upmix to 88.2 or 176.4 KHz (on the fly from a stereo CD using the analog output), as mentioned DVD-Audio and SACD support, Divx, MP3 ... I only paid EUR 175.

In my opinion it´s the best way to upgrade your hifi-set without purchasing a new amp! ;)

[mic]

A reminder FWIW & all, I was using 5.1 because it gave "me" the best overall sound no matter what I used to play the DVD. Unfortunately bundled or OEM DVD playback software won't always decode 5.1, as I was rather emphatically reminded by a family member.

Thanks
mike

[ursamtl]

Good point, mic. This is basically what I wrote about in another thread recently, that people can do a 5.1 version to suit themselves, but if they're giving it to someone else to play back, it might not work well with non 5.1 systems, depending on how it's done. For example, many feel the need to take all the bass below a certain frequency and put it through the LFE channel. The problem with this approach is that if it's Dolby Digital played back on a non 5.1 system with Pro Logic I or II, the 5 full-range channels are mixed down automatically to playback on the system, but the LFE channel is completely discarded (even if the system has a subwoofer, since "LFE channel" does not equal "subwoofer"). I remember as a teenager getting my first graphic equalizer and thinking how wonderful it was going to be to fix the frequency deficiencies I perceived when listening to music.

Regards,
Steve.

[f@chance]

This is just what I am looking for. I too am doing my own DVDs and have so far for many used the method of taking a stereo WAV sound track and encode it to Surround sound using Sonic Foundry Soft Encode. Sofar I have been happy by playing it back over a Yamaha receiver that does PL II and the sound is very good but not quite up to the DD 5.1

My quest likewise is to take a stereo soundtrack and encode it to DD 5.1.

@ursamtl you mentioned several guides for surround sound here at doom9? I also remember a thread here where someone used low pass and frequency range filters to create DD 5.1 but I can't find it.

Any further advice where to go to for procedures would be appreciated.

What would happen if I run the stereo signal into Soft Encode and encode it as DD 5.1 will it create the other channels?

Sorry for sounding a bit on the noob side but resampling, normalizing & DS encode has been sofar all my exposure to the Audio encoding.

Thanks for any help

DOH, DOH just clicked on the ursamtl's link to the plug in and there it is, thanks.

[daphy]

@ursamtl you mentioned several guides for surround sound here at doom9? I also remember a thread here where someone used low pass and frequency range filters to create DD 5.1 but I can't find it.

Any further advice where to go to for procedures would be appreciated.

needfulthings (guides and/or project section would be a good place to start your adventure (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org) :p

What would happen if I run the stereo signal into Soft Encode and encode it as DD 5.1 will it create the other channels?

nope, they will be blank ;)

[ursamtl]

Hi f@chance,

I'm glad you found the link to V.I. that should get you started. As for the other surround guides, I maintain the list of all the surround methods and threads contained here, as well as some links to other surround-related sites around the internet, both professional and amateur. You can access the list here:

GUIDE LIST: Stereo-to-Surround Conversion Guides (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=83752)Don't forget daphy's Needfulthings (http://www.needfulthings.webhop.org/) server, which is fast becoming one of the best stereo-to-surround-related resources in the internet, with thousands of visits from real people. :)

Let us know how you make out.

[f@chance]

I downloaded the necessary software but when I load the V.I-VST.Bidule I get the error message Presets are not for this bidule. After clicking 6 or 7 times it goes away and the 4 different windows display. Anything that I am missing or need to now preset?

I went through the shockwave guide but could not locate the plugins-complete file any idea where to get this or is all of this a result because of the 0.85 version of bidule?

Thanks for any help

[ursamtl]

Yeah, that's a new error message I got a few times too with the latest version of Plogue Bidule. It didn't affect anything, as far as I can see. V.I still works fine for me. Just follow the instructions in the guide and you should be surrounded by sound in no time! :)

[f@chance]

Thanks for the help. You did an excellent job with this & I hope it helps. Before I did use soft encode to convert stereo into Dolby Surround Sound 2.0 and playing it back over a Yamaha receiver in Pl II did sound pretty good. But then I got hold of a TV episode that I know ia only aired in stereo and nowhere in HDTV with DD 5.1 but this captured DD 5.1 and it sounded better then the DS 2.0 with Pl II, thus my interest in stereo to 5.1 conversion.

I can't find the processing toggle that turns green unless you omitted it and just let it start once the output file is set and the input file is selected.

Just extracted the mda_vst_fx_win.zip DLLs & the classic master limiter into the Plugin directory scanned and it added 34 pligind and no more error messages. Sorry about my clumsiness.

I am editing this post as I go along. Two final :-) questions:

You said "NOTE: be careful with channel order. Some bidule layouts may present different orders, but the general default these days is the ITU 5.1 spec of Left, Right, Center, LFE, Left Surround, Right Surround."

After the besweet commadline it says in the window, Output: FL, FR, SL, SR, C, LFE which is a different order, is this of concern and should I assume that the SL is really the Center and the SR is the LFE?

Finally will the default settings produce a decent surround since I have a PC with 2.0 speaker system, I really don't want to burn test clips for testing it on the DVD player.

FWIW I can't get any sound out of the Bidule player when unticking the offline processing, how can I listen to sound?

Thanks again

[bobcat56458]

f@chance: What I did was make a new Layout based on V.I-VST where I just changed the wiring between the "5.1 Output", and the "Audio File Recorder" so that it is setup like you stated in your last post. It will then encode with the correct channel order for BeSweet & Soft Encode. To monitor the sound I've only been able to do this in stereo by right clicking and selecting "Audio Devices" then "Duplex" then "ASIO" then "ASIO" DirectX Driver(duplex). This will add a new module that you can connect to any two of the outputs of the "5.1 Output" module. This works with my Audigy soundcard you may have to use different settings under "Audio Devices" with your soundcard. My soundcard has 5.1 sound output but I have not figured out how to monitor all 6 channels at one time, if someone knows how let me know. As far as the settings in the V.I-VST Bidule I just leave them at default, it works well with a music source, I don't encode TV shows using the V.I-VST Bidule because I don't think it is best at that. I use the ProLogic II method that uses the processing features of WinDVD, and GraphEdit for those types of programs.

[f@chance]

I use the ProLogic II method that uses the processing features of WinDVD, and GraphEdit for those types of programs.
Thanks for your informative reply, I will try that as soon as I am behind my machine again. What do you mean by Prologic II method? Are you encoding the stereo file with sourround data like as in using Soft Encode and then let the Prologic II features of the amp/receiver do the rest?

My sole interest is in getting the best sound for TV shows. I tried last night a different method, I bought the Nero Multichannel plug in that allows me to encode stereo files to 5.1. I took an AVI file an ran it through the encoding process threw the video away and kept the audio to go along with my CCE generated video from the same AVI.

I will evaluate it to night and see if it is any good compared to the Dolby Surround Sound from Soft Encode played back in PL II mode.

Thanks again for your help and maybe you can answer what I raised here.

[bobcat56458]

F@chance: No, the WinDVD method is actually encoding a ProLogic II 5.1 mix to a DVD DD5.1 soundtrack so you do not even have to have a ProLogic capable stand alone home theater system (you will need a home theater system that can do DD5.1 sound although). Here is a link to a thread where it is being discussed:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=83384&page=1&pp=20&highlight=prologic
You are not using WinDVD as a player, just the InterVideo FX Processor to process the stereo file into a 6 channel wave file (you’ll need GraphEdit, and FFShow also to do this). You can also use Power DVD to do the same thing, and you do not get a muted first second and a half of audio at the beginning of your 6 channel wave file. You then take that 6 channel wave file and using a program like BeSweet, or Soft Encode you make a DD5.1 AC3 file. I also gave the Nero 5.1 plugin a try and was not to pleased with the results, you can read these 2 posts I made about it:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=93857
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=97096

[f@chance]

You can also use Power DVD to do the same thing, and you do not get a muted first second and a half of audio at the beginning of your 6 channel wave file.
I do have Power DVD 5.0 what filter do I need from Power DVD to do the same as the InterVideo FX processor or do I need to upgrade to a later version? I have used GraphEdit in the past when processing AVI files so I am somewhat familiar with it.

I am hesitant with InterVideo because of the 1.5 to 2 second silence, I have battled with Audio Sync problems and hate it and don't want to introduce anything that could cause this.

I want to give this a try. Thanks for your excellent comments and posts.

[bobcat56458]

f@chance: I have never done it using Power DVD but if you go to the third page of the first link you will see people talking about using Power DVD version 6 to do this. You will not have any sync problems using WinDVD just the first second and a half have muted audio on the produced 6 channel wave file.

[f@chance]

Thanks I will try to persue this. Just finished doing it with VI-VST module and the sound was pretty good I liked it better then Nero only one problem, the sound is out of sync. Is there a delay in this VI-VST module, that you know of? I hate to get back with AC3 Delay corrector and fix the delay. Damn get it to work and then something else.

Thanks again.

[bobcat56458]

f@chance: I've had no problems with sync and the VI-VST module.

[f@chance]

DVD Maestro was the culprit. Did the create sync audio track and it through it off, just dragged the dd5.1 audio onto the audio track and no sync issues. I have noticed this in the past every now and then.

With the Nero Multichannel plug I felt that the sound was a bit echoy. The whole sound had the feeling of coming through a hollow tube, a bit too much for my liking. Very difficult to put into words. The Soft Encode with the 6 separate channels had a more natural sound to it more closer to genuine DD 5.1 I thought.

I don't have too much time for testing this but will try the Power DVD 6.0 at least once. Because once I am sucessfull and like it, it will be created DD 5.1 instead of DS 2.0.

I am glad I got the V.I.-VTS thingy to work it is excellent. After I switched the wires of C with SL and LFE with SR from the 5.1 output to the audio recorder I found out that what besweet produced was incorrect and I had to switch the filenames. Looks like the output from the DD 5.1 to the audio recorde are wired correct.

Thanks again for your help.

Thanks again

[daphy]

doesn´t wavewizard support templates for each common encoder´s channelmapping? :confused:

[f@chance]

I don't know I am using the V.I.-VST module and it worked for me after some stupid set-up problems that were my fault, RTMF or Guide. When I ran besweet on the 6wav file in the output window it said:

Output: FL, FR, SL, SR, C, LFE

Now I believe this is not the order of the files creted but is just user feedback and that the 6 wav files created with the addition to the filename of FL, FR, SL, SR, C & LFE are actually correct. I switched C <-->SL & LFE <--> SR and listening to the single wav files they were wrong the SL was silent which is most likely the LFE and I left the V.I.-VST as it is.

Once being home I will listen to it over the system and hope it is correct. In any occasion I am thrilled about the DD 5.1 upmix.

Daphy, thanks for you needful things server surely brings things together and was most helpful in setting up the V.I.-VST module.

P.S. When should Normalization take place on the original Stereo WAV files or post processing and what at what level? SoundForge uses -16 DB is that too loud?

[ursamtl]

Hi folks,

Sorry I haven't been around sooner to help out with the V.I issues. I'm glad you got it to work. The order of V.I output channels is based on the ITU standard for 5.1 of: Left, Right, Center, LFE, Left Surround, Right Surround. You indeed have to change the "wiring" in bidule if you need a different order.

@ f@chance: as for normalization, some audio pros recommend no normalization at all. I do recommend a limiter at the end of your chain to help avoid clipping. The Classic Limiter plugin I used in the layout works quite well, but if you're using Cubase or Nuendo, the limiters that come with them work perfectly as well.

[f@chance]

@usramtl

Thanks for your efforts here it is much appreciated. Does BeSeet need a different order of channels???

I do believe that the latest besweet does use the FL, FR, C, LFE, SL, SR order, because when I switched C <--> SL & LFE <--> SR wiring and then opened the individual WAV files in sound forge and the SR was virtually not present making me believe that this must have been the LFE.

I made the assumption possibly wrong since besweet displayed:

Output FL, FR, SL, SR, C, LFE

Again I assumed that this is a wrong order but the single WAV files sounded correct. The SR & SL having faint dialogue while the C having the loudest dialogue, I only have a 2.0 PC sound system.

Thanks again for your help.

[johnman]

doesn´t wavewizard support templates for each common encoder´s channelmapping? :confused:

yes, and like i said before, if anyone has an interesing mapping, post it in the ww thread and ill add it in the next release :)


I hate to get back with AC3 Delay corrector and fix the delay.

If there is problem with the delay, ww can fix it "automaticaly" by adding DELAY -1500 in the filename
i.e.
abc.wav -> abcDELAY -1500.wav
and ww will cut away the first 1500 msec.

(if you want this dont forget to set this option on in the prefs. If its on it will change the "DELAY" in the filename to NODEL if the delay has been corrected)

[f@chance]

If there is problem with the delay, ww can fix it "automaticaly" by adding DELAY -1500 in the filename
i.e.
abc.wav -> abcDELAY -1500.wav
and ww will cut away the first 1500 msec.

Is there a way for ww determine the delay correction? If it is a matter of just adding or subtrackting frames from the start, how do you determine how many to add or subtrackt?

I only noticed the sync error about 3-5 minutes into the episodes. When I inserted 128 ms (4 frames) into the beginning of the two episodes that showed sync errors, their problem was corrected.

I will try out ww this stereo --> DD 5.1 is a new thingy for me and I love the results just want to make a fool prove procedure because it will be repeated every week.

[johnman]

Is there a way for ww determine the delay correction? If it is a matter of just adding or subtrackting frames from the start, how do you determine how many to add or subtrackt?

I only noticed the sync error about 3-5 minutes into the episodes. When I inserted 120 ms (4 frames) into the beginning the two episodes that showed sync errors, the problem was corrected.

I will try out ww this stereo --> DD 5.1 is a new thingy for me and I love the results just want to make a fool prove procedure because it will be repeated every week.

ww doesnt detect the delay. When you add DELAY to the filename, it will add or remove samples from the start, so the output file will be correct.
(Automaticaly isnt the correct word in my previous post. What i mean is that it doesnt fix the output ac3/dts or whatever. it works on the wav that is converted).If the delay is constant, and you always add a DELAY in the filename, and you use ww to convert to ac3 or dts, you get a synchronized file in one step. Im thinking about adding an option to set the delay in the prefs. Then you dont have to rename all files when they all have the same delay.

[f@chance]

Got you, I understand now. Thanks for the excellent proggie that makes live easier in the DTS & DD 5.1 world.