VP7 Free For Personal Use : 7.0.10.0

[On2Tech]

Download VP7 Now (http://www.on2.com/cms-data/downloads/on2_vp7_personal_edition.exe)
A new version of VP7 (v7.0.10.0) is now available from our web site. The main changes are as follows:-

Version 7.0.10.0
=======================================
- Improved overall quality
- Improved speed on best quality mode
- Fixed a problem in one of the blitters that caused
color artifacts for some interlaced clips.
- Fixed a bug that caused spatial re-sampling to crash for some specific
source image sizes and resample ratios.
- Faster first pass encode.
- Improvements in 2 pass rate control.
- Significant changes to the motion search algorithm to improve detection and
tracking in high motion scenes. These changes affect both the first and second pass.


This release removes a previous limitation that prevented the encoder from detecting and tracking motion of greater than 31 ¾ pels. We were keen to address this problem without hurting average encode speed and to this end we have made significant changes to the motion search strategy. As a result, for most of the clips we have tested the new release is actually a little faster.

Obviously the biggest gains are for clips that contain a lot of very high motion. Though this is not very common, there are exceptions and for these the improvement can be dramatic. We have seen some clips where the improvement in overall PSNR was as high as 0.75db and isolated sections where it was much higher.

Even on low motion clips, however, the changes seem to have helped. For example, the HPII trailer previously used by Saggitaire was at the low end of the spectrum but we still saw a small improvement in psnr and an improvement in SSIM ranging from 0.3 at best quality through to about 0.5 at good quality speeds 4&5.



Earlier release notes:

Version 7.0.9.0
=======================================
- fixed bug that produced artifacts in faster speeds ( 2,4,5) when image
size not multiple of 16
- better quality video across wide range of video
- fixed problem in which video offset by 1 pixel when using noise reduction
- improvements to live encoding


Version 7.0.8.0
=======================================
- Improved post processing speed
- added Direct Show Decoder
- added slider which controls how much filtering to do
- added macroblock deblocker
- free for personal use version
- improved quality encode and decode

Version 7.0.7.0
=======================================
- Improved decode speed significantly
- Improved best quality mode
- Improved quality at speed for encode
- solved problem on non intel machines that shut off mmx optimizations of decoder
- solved issue when calling from dshow
- Improved quality of real time encode

[Sharktooth]

:eek:

[IvS]

That's good. Now how about removing the terrible step no one ever wants which is submitting your email address just to download a file? Others don't do it, you shouldn't either. Also, that's nice, VP7 is yet again the best video codec in the universe according to you. So were VP6, VP5, VP3...

[Sharktooth]

They were... but thechnology evolves... rapidly...

[Matrics]

On2Tech, is it possible to host "On2 VP7 Personal Edition.exe" file on our server?

We can state that VP7 Personal Edition license entitles you to create and publish video for personal use only. Also, a link to License Agreement could be included in software's page.

[Sirber]

I asked once and I got a "yes" if I include the license too.

[On2Tech]

Now how about removing the terrible step no one ever wants which is submitting your email address just to download a file? Others don't do it, you shouldn't either.

We've now done this... Get it Here: (http://www.on2.com/software/on2_vp7_personal_edition.zip)

[LordRPI]

Awesome =]

[Sirber]

Any comparison?

[Sharktooth]

wow, i did a couple of test encodes and i must say vp7 is becoming the real and only commercial (and now also free for personal use) AVC competitor...
the decoder is great, expecially the "Keep CPU use below xx%" option.
even the encodes made with old versions look better with this one.
great stuff.

[LordRPI]

I just finished with a test encode of some 720p material. The playback looks great, although I cannot achieve full frame rate on a 2.8 ghz P4, even when I uncheck "Keep CPU use below xx%" option. It looks like I'm getting better frame rates with MP AVC, but I'm guessing either my system is b0rked or I've done something wrong in encoding =]

This is really nice though. How far along has the porting to an AD Blackfin gone?

Edit: Just found the User Guide (Which is great and to the point) =] I'm doing another encode at the moment so I'll see how the changes in the PP affect playback.

[riggits]

Thanks! I've been waiting to test this out :D

[darkavatar1470]

this is great!
I've been a big fan of VP6, but wasn't able to try out the new VP7, good job, On2 !!

[CruNcher]

I don't want to sound disrespectfull in any regards, but it was just a matter of time :)
im happy that it happened so fast, now it would be the hit if you would provide Xiph with a updated OSL of VP6 or why waiting so long and don't try to catch momentum right away and go strange ahead with VP7 (non comercial open source use) and at the same time submit it for standardization process ?
Im not sure about the status of EVD but seems like it failed expectations On2 had for it so the time is right "Let's share VPX with the World Today" ;)

PS: Bond yeah i know im dreaming but sometimes you have to ;D

[B.F.]

I test VP7 and x264 on Van Helsing traler.
x264 version look better and VP7 work mutch slower.

[On2Tech]

I test VP7 and x264 on Van Helsing traler.
x264 version look better and VP7 work mutch slower.

Can you post the settings you used for both codecs? We'd like to duplicate your results.

[neo_anderson]

i kindly request the guys here @ doom9 to please post a guide for dvd to vp7 conversion, as there must be many people like me who have neva used it and do not know which settings to use!

[Sharktooth]

I test VP7 and x264 on Van Helsing traler.
x264 version look better and VP7 work mutch slower.
i tested the usual spiderman 2 trailer and, except the fact i had to lower the bitrate a bit coz it didnt hit the wanted filesize, the result looks great.
i still have to decide which one looks better for me, but the first impression is vp7 improved a lot.

[bond]

I don't want to sound disrespectfull in any regards, but it was just a matter of time :)
im happy that it happened so fast, now it would be the hit if you would provide Xiph with a updated OSL of VP6 or why waiting so long and don't try to catch momentum right away and go strange ahead with VP7 (non comercial open source use) and at the same time submit it for standardization process ?
Im not sure about the status of EVD but seems like it failed expectations On2 had for it so the time is right "Let's share VPX with the World Today" ;)

PS: Bond yeah i know im dreaming but sometimes you have to ;Dword ;)

[IgorC]

Quality is great.After some encoding I should say VP7 is a nearest competitor of family codecs H.264 in quality terms. I won't judge what is better. It's hard to say.
There some bugs like when I'm openening VP7 in virtual dub sometimes 20 windows of IE are opening. Decoder still wastes Intel CPUs a lot even when I try to put CPU 50% or even lower.

[Peter1234]

I tested VP7, fmeg (xvid), and X264 at 720x480 30fps using 900 kbps video encoding rate with the same test clip. VP7 was a clear winner. It had the fewest macro blocks and the sharpest image. The X264 encode was the worst since it would skip frames on fast action scenes and was jerky when played back (on 3GHz P4).

EDIT:

ONE PASS ENCODE TIMES on 3 GHz P4 (30 second video + mp3
audio)

Xvid = 30.3 sec
X264 = 1 min 32 sec
VP7 = 3 min 30 sec

[B.F.]

Can you post the settings you used for both codecs? We'd like to duplicate your results.

Van Helsing traler
1:26 long, 720:400, only fast motion action scenes.
Video bitrate 400 Kbit.
Two pass max quality encoding.
Vp7 7.0.8
x264vfw.revision280

Encoding time almost the same (Vp7 faster in 1st pass but slower in 2nd pass).
Vp7 decoder eat more cpu power to decode video.
Vp7 too slowly react on the scene change and picture look less detaled than the x264.

[neo_anderson]

pls, can anyone tell me what should be the estimated bitrates, sharpness settings, etc. for a 2-hr. dvd movie to vp7 encode, please on2 dude, pls give some help!

[On2Tech]

Regarding you first question, I am sorry if this sounds obvious but the rate you choose depends on how big you want the final file to be. If you want a 2 hour DVD to fit on a single CD then about 750Kbits/sec is a good starting point and should give you something eminently watch-able, as most real movies are overall easier to encode than movie trailers, which tend to have 50% of the action crammed into 2-3 minutes plus tons of scene cuts, fades etc.

It is always possible to get some improvement in metrics or psycho visual characteristics by fiddling with the various VBR settings, sharpness settings and preprocessing level, especially on short clips, but we have set what we believe to be reasonable defaults that should give you reliably good results.

Things like sharpness are a bit of a matter of personal taste. The default value of 0 will usually give the best metrics response but some people are willing to accept some increase in the level of some artifacts in return for more sharpness. I would not recommend that you try and tune this on a clip by clip basis, particularly if you are going to encode at best quality (note that good quality speed 0 is almost as good on most clips and about twice as fast), because you will waste a lot of time. Find a value that suits your preferences and stick with it.

I would keep the pre-processing set to 0 unless you have a very noisy source. Pre-processing / noise reduction techniques can help improve the visual quality if the source is noisy but will always tend to hurt metrics numbers.

For coding a movie at around 750K I would avoid temporal or spatial re-sampling. These really only come into their own at much lower rates.

CBR (or “Stream from Server”) is designed for case where you want to stream your video over a fixed bandwidth link and it enforces strict buffering constraints. If you are going to play back off something like a CD or hard drive then VBR or “Local File Playback” is your best option.

In general I would suggest that you de-interlace you video before you encode it rather than encoding the raw interlaced video using “interlaced mode”. If you have to encode interlaced video then the interlaced mode optimization switch will help, but interlaced video is always harder to encode than progressive scan material, so avoid it if at all possible.

There are others on this board much better qualified than I to advise on the process of getting the video off the DVD in the first place so I will not go into that here. However, the next version of the On2Compi encoder (available as part of the paid for “On2 Personal Video Solution”) will include direct support for VOBs and AVS scripts.

Note that the personal use video solution also includes the On2 Java video decoder that allows you to publish VP6 clips on a personal web site.

I hope this is helpful.

Regards On2Tech.

[Sharktooth]

On2Tech what is VP7VFW_beta7-0-9.exe in your public ftp?

[On2Tech]

On2Tech what is VP7VFW_beta7-0-9.exe in your public ftp?
We gave a pre version of the codec out prior to this release to a customer who had trouble getting to our ftp site. Its been removed.

Thanks for pointing it out to us.

[Sharktooth]

np. just another question about it. it was 7.0.9 and dated 07/07/2005 (IIRC). is it different from the 7.0.8 personal version?and since i downloaded it i wish to know if it is a commercial version. In that case i'll delete it from my HD.

[On2Tech]

np. just another question about it. it was 7.0.9 and dated 07/07/2005 (IIRC). is it different from the 7.0.8 personal version?and since i downloaded it i wish to know if it is a commercial version. In that case i'll delete it from my HD.

Its a version of a codec that was sitting on my hard drive that had some of the improvements that got into the released version of 7.0.8 but maybe not all. There is nothing more commercial about it than 7.0.8 and its probably worse.

It was named 7.0.9 because at the time I couldn't remember what version number we had released, not because its better.

On2Tech

[Sharktooth]

so i can delete it.
thanks for the reply:)

[Manao]

Peter1234 :

> The X264 encode was the worst since it would skip frames on fast action scenes and was jerky when played back (on 3GHz P4).

With what did you played it back ? Because 3 GHz is far more than enough to play back FULL@900kbps in h264.

[Sharktooth]

however vp7 decoding without PP and film grain approximation is lighter than h.264...

[Josef.Bilek]

VP7 seems really nice. I did couple of tests and VP7 seems really fully comparable with H.264. Sometimes better, sometimes worse.
I am curious what is the intended usage of this codec. I am using MDA device with Mobile Windows 2003 and TCMP player (by my opinion the best player in PDA world). Sometimes I tried convert some trailers to this device and the most difficult was select the proper audio and video codec due to the fact, that computing power of these devices is simply low. I am using standard H.263 Xvid with Ogg Vorbis in Matroska containter. Typical bitrate 150 kbps and resolution 320 x 240. I am looking for any option to this codec, but H.264 (X264) has the problem with computing power. Is there any plan, for example, to develop a VP7 plugin for TCMP optimized for StrongARM processors to use this codec on these devices?
It would be fine, because it seems that with bitrate 100 kbps is there the same level of details as in case of Xvid with 150 kbps. And SD cards have limited size.

[Peter1234]

Mano,
I encoded with X264 281A VFW codec using default Advanced settings except Partition Decision Quality was 5(High Quality) which may not have been the default. All tests played back with Windows Media Player 8 and WinDVD 4 (same results). Gspot shows that the Nero DVD filter was used for decoding X264 whereas Xvid was decoded with Xvid mpeg4 video decoder. Gspot shows that VP7 plays back using the VP7 video decoder filter. Source was 4:3 720x480 at 29.97fps mpeg2 9000 kbps originally from DV camera and encoded for DVD. Source was not de-intrlaced and I think I read somewhere that X264 can not use interlaced video, so that may have been the problem. This is the first time I have used X264, it was used to provide a comparison for VP7. I plan to do some more testing with it when I get some more time. Is there an X264 decoder for Windows that I should have installed? Is interlaced video a problem for X264?

EDIT:
I de-interlaced the source with AviSynth before feeding it to the X264 encoder and the results were still not good.

EDIT 2:
X264 playback problems were due to players. I installed VLC 0.8.2 player and the X264 video plays OK in it.

[Irwin]

Strange. On my cpu (pIII 500mhz) vp7 required about twice more power then h264 (with cabac). 640x272 700kbps h264 plays smooth, this same file in vp7 -> jerky like hell (even 480x192).

[Peter1234]

TEST UPDATE (720x480 900 kbps):
X264 playback problems were due to lack of H264 decoder. When H264 decoder was installed VP7 and X264 quality was about the same (X264 seemed slightly better). X264 did have some minor problems if source video was interlaced and thus needs an external deinterlacer whereas VP7 has built-in deinterlacer.

[Sharktooth]

Strange. On my cpu (pIII 500mhz) vp7 required about twice more power then h264 (with cabac). 640x272 700kbps h264 plays smooth, this same file in vp7 -> jerky like hell (even 480x192).
Disable post processing and noise grain reproduction options in the decoder.
however a p3 500 is not enaugh for those new generation codecs.
just "forget about it".

[jrb]

i've followed the vp* codecs for a while, usually they're pretty interesting, and i've had some good results in the past - i look at codecs from encoding gaming movies, which pushes codecs in a totally different way to the usual film or cartoon type material. my last movie had to have a vbr rate 3400 in xvid to attain the quality i wanted - 21 minutes, plus 5 audio streams meant the resulting file was getting towards cd sized.

so, i was quite looking forward to trying out vp7, especially after reading the comments by other posters here. The issues about slow encode speeds, especially on the second pass of a 2 pass encode didn't really bother me, i'm personally in favour of quality for the viewer over encoding time for me. :)

i got bored of waiting for the movie to encode after 3-4 hours, and it had only completed around 50% of the job. I was also upset to find that i had a couple of unexpected results
- parts of the far left of the image were appearing on the far right
- the chroma layer appeared to be mal-aligned
- quality, in parts, not as good as my zoned xvid encode. (although i was using 3000, not 3400 for vp7).

I'll post some screenies when i get home, for comparison - along with the actual settings i used.

I've not tested encoding the same source with x264 yet, so i can't compare with that codec.

[On2Tech]

i've followed the vp* codecs for a while, usually they're pretty interesting, and i've had some good results in the past - i look at codecs from encoding gaming movies, which pushes codecs in a totally different way to the usual film or cartoon type material. my last movie had to have a vbr rate 3400 in xvid to attain the quality i wanted - 21 minutes, plus 5 audio streams meant the resulting file was getting towards cd sized.

so, i was quite looking forward to trying out vp7, especially after reading the comments by other posters here. The issues about slow encode speeds, especially on the second pass of a 2 pass encode didn't really bother me, i'm personally in favour of quality for the viewer over encoding time for me. :)

i got bored of waiting for the movie to encode after 3-4 hours, and it had only completed around 50% of the job. I was also upset to find that i had a couple of unexpected results
- parts of the far left of the image were appearing on the far right
- the chroma layer appeared to be mal-aligned
- quality, in parts, not as good as my zoned xvid encode. (although i was using 3000, not 3400 for vp7).

I'll post some screenies when i get home, for comparison - along with the actual settings i used.

I've not tested encoding the same source with x264 yet, so i can't compare with that codec.

This seems very odd. Can you give us details of exactly what you did plus if possible a short section of source material that exhibits this problem.

Thanks

On2Tech

[On2Tech]

TEST UPDATE (720x480 900 kbps):
X264 playback problems were due to lack of H264 decoder. When H264 decoder was installed VP7 and X264 quality was about the same (X264 seemed slightly better). X264 did have some minor problems if source video was interlaced and thus needs an external deinterlacer whereas VP7 has built-in deinterlacer.

VP7 has a mode switch that is designed to improve the quality when coding interlaced material but unless you want your output to be interlaced I would still reccommend that you de-interlace the source first.

On2Tech

[jrb]

okay, as promised, here's some screenshots. Just a couple of things to note
- the frames were chosen based on keyframes in the vp7 encode (to save scanning time in vdub), and therefore should paint vp7 in a better light than xvid
- the xvid shots are taken from a version encoded over a year ago, with, as far as my memory serves me right, version 1.0
- the source material really pushes most codecs, and as yet have been running my own tests with every stable codec worth investing time in (i need to add x264 to this list) - as yet xvid comes out on tops for consistent quality
(if you're into this kind of thing and want to check out the xvid encode, it can be found here (http://www.own-age.com/vids/video.aspx?id=1950) - (sorry for the self pimping))
- the input lossless file is a huffyuv v2.1.1 encoded file, in 24bit rgb format

http://shaolinproductions.org/images/13796-lossless.png
http://shaolinproductions.org/images/13796-xvid.png
http://shaolinproductions.org/images/13796-vp7.png

http://shaolinproductions.org/images/14296-lossless.png
http://shaolinproductions.org/images/14296-xvid.png
http://shaolinproductions.org/images/14296-vp7.png

http://shaolinproductions.org/images/5852-lossless.png
http://shaolinproductions.org/images/5852-xvid.png
http://shaolinproductions.org/images/5852-vp7.png

http://shaolinproductions.org/images/vp7-settings-01.jpg
http://shaolinproductions.org/images/vp7-settings-02.jpg

[DeathTheSheep]

Hmm... yeah. I've been having some problems with this too:

- parts of the far left of the image were appearing on the far right

This is with "noise reduction" enabled. When disabled, it seems to disapear.

Source specs: Complexity: High, Type: Anime, Title: "Naruto intro 2: Haruka Kanata", Length: 1:28, FPS: 11.988.
OK, specs of machine: intel 3ghz 512ram 533fsb, etc...

VP7.0.8.0 -- 1-pass max quality, CQ=50

With Noise Reduction:
http://www.xsquared.matzoo.com/Cheatman/Noise_Reduction.avi
Without Noise Reduction:
http://www.xsquared.matzoo.com/Cheatman/No_Noise_Reduction.avi

And of course, a comparison to x264 (the only competitor, lol) at the closest possible filesize, CQ=36.
Baseline profile, no B-frames, but MAXED OUT on everything else.
http://www.xsquared.matzoo.com/Cheatman/x264_smaller_file.avi

And finally, a comparison with THEORA for demonstration/laughing/checking-on-progression purposes:

http://www.xsquared.matzoo.com/Cheatman/theora.avi
Note: Link may not appear for another few minutes. Bear with me here.

AND a few more noise tests for the heck of it with VP7.0.8.8beta:
Denoise 1:
http://www.xsquared.matzoo.com/Cheatman/Blur.avi
Denoise 7:
http://www.xsquared.matzoo.com/Cheatman/Fixed.avi

For the server:
Username: doom9
Password: on2tech

There ya go. It's the least I can do (for only an 88 second clip, lol).
Good stuff. Just ask if you need anythin'

DeathTheSheep

[jrb]

oops.
thanks for pointing that out, :-)

i was going to try that anyway as i found some of my frames were losing too much textural detail - which i put down to noise reduction at first, but i think it may've been down to the quantize settings. re-encoding at the moment, but a preliminary test shows that turning noise reduction off also irradicates the chroma offset issue i was getting too.

i'll post some re-vp7'd shots when it's done.

[B.F.]

If you disable sharpness encoding speed will be mutch faster.
I don't find any difference in quality.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Is it just me......

I don't seem to be able to play any of my old VP6 content with the new VP7 DSdec filter :(


Cheers

[dimzon]

on2tech
is any chance to view open source VP6/VP7 decoder (may be LGPL) ?

[On2Tech]

oops.
thanks for pointing that out, :-)

i was going to try that anyway as i found some of my frames were losing too much textural detail - which i put down to noise reduction at first, but i think it may've been down to the quantize settings. re-encoding at the moment, but a preliminary test shows that turning noise reduction off also irradicates the chroma offset issue i was getting too.

i'll post some re-vp7'd shots when it's done.

JRB and DTS

It certainly looks like there may be a problem with the noise pre-processing. Thanks for pointing this out, we will look into it.

In general I would not recommend noise pre-filtering unless the source is very noisy. Certainly at the higher rates that you are using JRB there is a good chance it will make things look too soft. Try with noise filtering off. I suspect the results will be better.

On2Tech

[Sgt_Strider]

Are there any ways to view VP7 encoded content on the Pocket PC / Windows Mobile 2003 SE platform?

[DeathTheSheep]

As of yet, a VP6 decoder for the Pocket PC is under development, but a VP7 decoder hasn't yet been announced.

But I cross my fingers! :p

[Phanton_13]

on2tech
is any chance to view open source VP6/VP7 decoder (may be LGPL) ?

For this case is beter to use a license like the license used in "UnRAR source code", for stuf like this is very interesting.

[iwod]

Well....... Surely Vp7 is very good......... but why is on2 and macromedia still bunding VP6 with the Flash 8?

If Flash 8 support Vp7 you surely have the Largest viwer base possible. And We dont have to suffer in poorer quality in Vp6 compare to Vp7.