Return of the King backup (theatrical version)

[Aquilonious]

I'm using CCE Trial v2.70.02.01 & the DVD-RB Pro RC2.

I've never before backed up such a large movie (200 min) and want to get a good quality backup. I plan on backing up to DVD+R.

One Doom9 poster, moumiac, said he used the following settings:

VBR_Bias = 30 (default is 25)
Quality_Prec = 28 (default is 16)
4 passes (default 2, I normally use 3)

I'm not all that familiar with these settings but perhaps some of you can comment and give me some tips on how to manipulate them for a large movie backup. Remember, this is the standard theatrical release I'm backing up--not the extended version.

Some other posters have mentioned using the Half D1 option but wouldn't that degrade quality when playing back on a HDTV?

Finally, is it better to use the Quantization matrices at their default settings or set each according to their specific bit rate? For example, I have set the following:

Main Feature matrix = MPEG Standard
Low Bitrate = Low Bitrate
Very Low Bitrate = Very Low Bitrate
Matrix for Menus = QLB.

Am I just better off leaving these at the Encoder Default setting, or customizing like I've done above?

Thanks!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lian Li PC61USB black case w/Enermax 430W power supply
Abit NF7-S v1.2 (nForce2)
Athlon XP 3200+
768MB OCZ RAM, 400FSB
Tyan Radeon 9800 Pro 128MB, Catalyst 5.5 drivers
Sony G420 19" monitor
TEAC 3.5 floppy drive
WD360D (Raptor 36GB SATA 10,000 rpm, 8mb cache)
WD800JB (80GB, 7200rpm, 8mb cache)
NEC ND-3520A 16X DVD-RW // Liggy & Dee's LD3520 1.UG firmware
LITE-ON 52327S 52X CD-RW // QSOE5A firmware
Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS
Klipsch ProMedia Ultra 5.1 speakers
Roland Sound Canvas SC-55mkII
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Canon i950 inkjet photo printer
WinXP Pro SP2
DirectX 9.0c
Mozilla Firefox 1.0.4
Latest BIOS & driver updates installed
All WinXP critical updates installed

[jptheripper]

you need to either cut down the menu (convert to stills with menushrink) or remove dts. the menu is 800mb!!

[Aquilonious]

I think I'm going to just back up the movie only, which is still quite large at about 7.33GB (the original, DVD Decrypted size is 7.93GB).

Thanks for the tip on Menushrink, jptheripper. I didn't even know such a utility existed. I used it on RotK and it yielded a 290.84MB with menu audio and 302.25MB savings without it. Funny thing is, there's not much to the menu at all.

I've been putzin around with Infoedit but find it rather cumbersome to use at times. With Infoedit I can split the movie into two discs but I really don't like to do that.

I split Alien & Aliens because I wanted the audio/director's commentary. You can only activate the different audio and subtitle tracks through the menu--the original Alien(s) discs work this way and I've found no way around it. In other words, using the audio and subtitle buttons on your remote will not work. Even removing the User Option Prohibitions didn't work. (see http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/ifoedit-2dvdrs.htm).

I thought it was something I was doing wrong but I went through the Doom9 guide several times and could never get over the User Prohibition hurdle.

In any regard, I'm still looking to tweak the advanced CCE Customized Settings in DVD-RB to produce a better backup. If anyone has any ideas I'd greatly appreciate it. Or if anyone knows of a good matrix for this application I'd be glad to try it out. I downloaded a bunch of custom matrices here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=73666&highlight=cqme.

[Aquilonious]

For more info, this is what the DVD-RB log looks like after the Prepare stage for the movie only:

-----------------
[16:50:02] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- CCE SP 2.70.2.1 encoder selected.
- VTS_01: 3,846,564 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 289,093 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 53.8%
- Overall Bitrate : 2,544Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,744,632KB
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 3,450/600/2,544 Kbs
[16:56:18] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 6 minutes.

[Jeffster]

I'm using CCE Trial v2.70.02.01 & the DVD-RB Pro RC2.

VBR_Bias = 30 (default is 25)
Quality_Prec = 28 (default is 16)
4 passes (default 2, I normally use 3)


VBR Bias, probably little difference between 25 & 30 (30 is CCE default).

Quality Precision, remember that DVDRB scales this value...
16=25 and 28=44 in CCE.

I'd stay with 16, or perhaps choose a lower value like 12 or 10 since it's a low bitrate encode. (10=16 in CCE)

From the CCE manual:
"The optimal setting depends on the footage, but roughly speaking,
16 to 40 is recommended. If the bitrate is relatively high,
greater value may bring better result."

It's not often you have the luxury of a relatively high bitrate.

Passes, 3 or 4, it's up to you and how much time you have... I doubt you'd notice a visible difference between them.

Just my thoughts... :)

[Rockas]

I think I'm going to just back up the movie only, which is still quite large at about 7.33GB (the original, DVD Decrypted size is 7.93GB).

Thanks for the tip on Menushrink, jptheripper. I didn't even know such a utility existed. I used it on RotK and it yielded a 290.84MB with menu audio and 302.25MB savings without it. Funny thing is, there's not much to the menu at all.

I've been putzin around with Infoedit but find it rather cumbersome to use at times. With Infoedit I can split the movie into two discs but I really don't like to do that.

I split Alien & Aliens because I wanted the audio/director's commentary. You can only activate the different audio and subtitle tracks through the menu--the original Alien(s) discs work this way and I've found no way around it. In other words, using the audio and subtitle buttons on your remote will not work. Even removing the User Option Prohibitions didn't work. (see http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/mpg/ifoedit-2dvdrs.htm).

I thought it was something I was doing wrong but I went through the Doom9 guide several times and could never get over the User Prohibition hurdle.

In any regard, I'm still looking to tweak the advanced CCE Customized Settings in DVD-RB to produce a better backup. If anyone has any ideas I'd greatly appreciate it. Or if anyone knows of a good matrix for this application I'd be glad to try it out. I downloaded a bunch of custom matrices here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=73666&highlight=cqme.
You can try my application to test several matrices until you find the ONE :)
here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=97114

[jptheripper]

i still recommend dropping an audio, the dts track is huge. If you want it the bitrate will remain below 3k

[Aquilonious]

i still recommend dropping an audio, the dts track is huge. If you want it the bitrate will remain below 3k

The standard edition of RotK does not come with DTS track. DVD-RB removes all DTS audio by default, and I leave it at that setting. I have no use for DTS audio.

Using DVD Shrink, I saved the movie only with just AC3 5.1 track uncompressed. I am now determining what advanced CCE settings to use and testing out some matrices with Rockas excellent Rebuilder's Matrix Editor.

:thanks: Rockas!

After testing I'll finally use CCE to compress it to DVD5.

[Rockas]

@Aquilonious
please use the latest release... released today :)
check:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=685951#post685951

[Aquilonious]

@Rockas
Thanks for your prompt reply. I downloaded and installed the new version along with some extra matrices. Now there's too many to choose from. :p

I've tried the low & very low bitrate matrices that come with DVD-RB using your Matrix Editor but haven't found any significant visual quality differences. Perhaps I just don't have the keen eye.

I've heard QuEnc & HCenc are both pretty decent for low bitrate encodes, and ProCoder is good for interlaced material. Some have said CCE SP doesn't do <3000 bitrate that well.

Which encoder would you recommend?

And what matrix would you recommend?

(please see my previous post in this thread--I'm backing up ROTK theatrical version)

[Rockas]

Well... if you want to use the Matrix Editor you'll have to stick to HC :)
I haven't enabled QuEnc mode yet.

The matrices? well that's more complicated... there are so many... you can always try the ones you tried... low and very low or even QLB... I don't know...

Just choose a "complicated" segment and test as many as your patience lets you :D

Oh! by the way... just released a new version... HC wasn't working on the previous, so please... update it :)

[Rockas]

By the way... have you tested it with filters?
like Undot() or Deen() or even both?

I hope that I'll introduce that option on the test feature on Matrix Editor but until then all you got to do is to add them on the Filter Editor... just don't forget to erase them on other movies you may not want to use them (they may/will - specially Deen() - slow down your encodes)

[Aquilonious]

@Rockas
I just downloaded and installed 0.2.0.3 of your Rebuilder's Matrix Editor. Wow, that was a quick update! :D

I find www.warp2search.net excellent for daily updates to drivers, software, patches, etc.

So far I've managed to collect 67 matrices. I don't think I'll use even 1/4 of them, but it's nice to have them around.

Having filters would be a great idea. Undot would work great on many of the pre-1990 movies I have on DVD, like 2010--the sequel to 2001: A Space Odyssey. The master was 70mm Panavision. Aliens (1986) has quite a bit of grain in it due to its 70/150mm source. http://www.in70mm.com/library/blow_up/year/1986.htm
Director Jim Cameron made a trade off while filming the moving because he avoided using anamorphic lenses; he doesn't like the loss of depth-of-field/focus you sometimes get with ano lenses. Ridley Scott used anormorphic quite frequently in Alien and many of his other movies, like Gladiator to great effect. But I digress, let me get back on subject...

Can I use custom matrices with CCE? (please forgive my ignorance as I'm still relatively new to CCE).

One nice feature I'd like to see in a future release of Matrix Editor would be the ability to import multiple matrices at one time. I did each matrix individually and made sure I wasn't overwriting any that came with DVD-RB. It took me a while but nonetheless--excellent program, and very useful!

[Rockas]

And yet... another release... if you want to use CCE... you must download it... sorry :o

[Aquilonious]

Thanks for the update, Rockas.

I encoded ROTK using CCE SP, HCenc, and QuEnc. For QuEnc I enabled Trellis and used the QLB matrix. For CCE & HC I used the following matrices:

Main Feature = Encoder Default
Low Bitrate = Low Bitrate
Very Low Bitrate = Very Low Bitrate
Extras = N/A (I only encoded the movie, no extras)

All encoders were set for max quality. CCE VBR I set to 3 passes. VBR Bias & QPrec I left at the DVD-RB default--25, 16.

Using Media Player Classic, I captured 2 different frames from the original, decrypted ROTK movie; and then captured those same two frames from the three encoded versions of the movie. The two frames I captured were shots of fireballs in high motion launched against a relatively dark background.

So what were the results?

ARRGGH! It's hard to tell by screenshots alone. CCE did good overall in both frames with HCenc right behind. QuEnc did poorly (blocky) in the first frame capture (especially in the fireball itself) but did best in the second, remaining closest to the original ROTK frame. So QuEnc seems to be the best and worst at times--inconsistent. But, it may just be I need to tweak more. You can spend hours and hours analyzing just one movie.

I'm still playing around with your Matrix Editor. Many of the matrices I've gathered don't have much documentation so it's hard to target what to use them for (DVD, SVCD, VCD, VHS; high, low, very low bitrates, etc). I haven't come to any definite conclusion as to which one is best (for ROTK). Many of them have differences that are imperceptible.

I found the challenge is not when you're encoding at >4000 bitrate (any encoder's default matrix should work fine), but when you're encoding at <3000--That's where an applicable matrix can make a substantial difference in visual quality.

jdobbs: If you perchance read this, what CCE settings and matrices did you use in backing up ROTK?

[manono]

Hi-

...any encoder's default matrix should work fine...

Not in my opinion they don't. When you have the bitrate to spare, you should be using a Matrix similar to what the studio originally used. One of my pet peeves is that many, if not most, people think that (for example) the default CCE Standard Matrix is just fine, but it's not. You have a good TV, so you may be able to tell. When using the Standard Matrix, the closeups may look good, but you'll lose detail in medium and distance shots that may have been there in the original DVD. You should be studying the matrices being used in the commercial high quality DVD releases (Criterion or Warner Home Video, for example). Most of the discussion around here is about the use of low bitrate matrices for use on the extras, although, in my opinion, the Very Low and Ultra Low Bitrate matrices of CCE are already quite good. I have seen very little discussion about the use of high bitrate matrices, and even CCE doesn't offer much of a choice, although it's easy enough to add new ones. Rockas's matrix collection includes at least one very good one, the Fox Home Entertainment Matrix. Nor have I seen much discussion about the effects of the default setting of the Low Pass filter on the outcome, or the Vertical Filter if you turn it on. Both tend to smooth the picture.

Of course, with a super long movie like Return Of The King, you probably shouldn't be using the same matrix as on the DVD, when compressing it for a DVDR, but for other more normal length movies, you can make noticeable improvements over what the Standard Matrix will give you. There are also other factors to consider when choosing the matrix, such as whether or not the encoder set a minimum bitrate of 3-4000, so by setting your minimum to 500 or so, you can gain back a lot of bits during the dark or static scenes. Or maybe the average Q-Level is quite low, so you can use a good matrix with a higher, but still acceptable, Q-Level and still get outstanding results. That is, there's often a lot of "overhead" in a good commercial release that you can take advantage of when compressing for a DVDR. Just my two cents about a subject that interests me.

[Rockas]

@manono
Can I throw you a challenge :)

I'm willing to change the default Matrices on the RME... If needed... and if there's anyone out there with the knowledge to make a selection of the bes and their respective description :D

I really want to do that for sometime now... but... I have a wife and two kids (1 and 4 years old) you can imagine how hard it is to put some time together to develop a tool when you have a day job too :D

So my challenge is... can you do it? :)

Thanks

[manono]

Hi Rockas-

I made that post as food for thought, or food for discussion, or food for argument, or something like that.

I don't have DVD-RB Pro, so the Matrix Editor is useless for me. I just use a small collection of matrices myself, some from commercial DVDs, some from CCE, and one which is a blend of Intra from one commercial DVD, and Non-Intra from another. But I DL'd your nice tool just now and had a look. It seems at least some were developed for XviD and other non-DVD uses, and I wouldn't know if they'll even play, or play well, on all DVD players. Also, I was mistaken in thinking that you had the Fox Home Entertainment Matrix. I thought you had all the ones in the Ligh collection, but I guess you wanted to keep the numbers under control. I certainly didn't intend to denigrate your hard work on the Matrix Editor, since I hadn't even seen it before about 10 minutes ago. I was just responding to the comment Aquilonious made.

Anyway, I'm always up for a challenge. I'll PM you.

[Rockas]

Thanks :)
The RME still has some bugs... but I'm working on them... they'll be away... sooner or later.
As for the Matrices included... as my free time ain't much... I decided to use the ones Robot1 have included on RB-Opt... as I'm sure they are compatible with the MPEG standards... Then I included the BDVD one... I know it doesn't fit the standard but after a few tests I concluded that the results are pretty good... and there's the Rebuman (my good friend that helps me on the Italian section of www.dvdrebuilder.com) matrix for QuEnc.
Even if you don't have Rebuilder PRO, I can make a Special Edition of RME that you can use to test matrices on some segments using the Rebuilder Free... just test 'cause the free edition doesn' support Matrices.

Thanks

[Aquilonious]

Well, I ended up doing 4 CCE passes on ROTK (movie only). I reset all matrices to their default values. The quality is absolutely superb. I couldn't believe how well it came out.

I'm now backing up a movie called Silent Running and it has large extras I want to keep. I tried 33% & 50% reductions and it was just too much of a quality loss, even using several low, very low, and ultra low bitrate matrices. I've set DVD-RB to 25% reduction and am experimenting with more matrices.

Kudos to you, Rockas, for your wonderful time-saving Matrix Editor tool!

[Rockas]

Thanks :cool:

[Aquilonious]

Hi Rockas-

I made that post as food for thought, or food for discussion, or food for argument, or something like that.

I don't have DVD-RB Pro, so the Matrix Editor is useless for me. I just use a small collection of matrices myself, some from commercial DVDs, some from CCE, and one which is a blend of Intra from one commercial DVD, and Non-Intra from another. But I DL'd your nice tool just now and had a look. It seems at least some were developed for XviD and other non-DVD uses, and I wouldn't know if they'll even play, or play well, on all DVD players. Also, I was mistaken in thinking that you had the Fox Home Entertainment Matrix. I thought you had all the ones in the Ligh collection, but I guess you wanted to keep the numbers under control. I certainly didn't intend to denigrate your hard work on the Matrix Editor, since I hadn't even seen it before about 10 minutes ago. I was just responding to the comment Aquilonious made.

Anyway, I'm always up for a challenge. I'll PM you.


If you look at the poll here,

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=70832&highlight=matrix+vote

it appears the HVS Best & Good Picture matrices win for high bit rate. I've tried these and several other matrices in the Matrix Editor with high bitrate video and haven't noticed any perceptible improvement over the standard CCE matrix. Of course, I'm not testing on a large 1080p HDTV either. I anticipate that by the time I can afford such an appliance, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD discs will be mainstream and this whole discussion will be a moot point.

I do like Jawor's 1CD Quantization matrix for very low bitrates. There loss of detail, of course, but it's smooth. And I've noticed difference between encoders. QuEnc appears to exhibit more blocking at low bitrates no matter what matrix is being used (even QLB). HC is certainly better, but my vote still goes to CCE overall. While HC and QuEnc "have their moments," CCE produces consistently very good to excellent results.

[manono]

Hi-

I'm glad to see you're interested in the subject. There are couple of things you have to remember. Those are XviD matrices, developed for AVI use, and usually for relatively small sizes, such as 1 or 2 CDs. So, an XviD high bitrate matrix might be good for bitrates of max 1500 or so. In addition, people using those matrices are usually doing their encodes for resolutions lower than DVD resolution. There are some true XviD High Bitrate matrices, but none were included in that poll, and when used, it's usually for larger file sizes (half a DVDR or more), higher resolutions and for much higher bitrates.

None of those in the poll (I don't have the CG-Animation matrix, so I couldn't get a look at it) can be even remotely considered to be a high bitrate matrix. The only one that wouldn't be considered a low bitrate matrix for DVD is the Bulletproof High Quality matrix, which may be just a touch better than the CCE Standard Matrix, which I consider to be only of medium quality.

However, if you wait a bit, the next version of Rockas's Matrix Editor may give you some true DVD high bitrate matrices to fool around with.

[Aquilonious]

Hi-

I'm glad to see you're interested in the subject. There are couple of things you have to remember. Those are XviD matrices, developed for AVI use, and usually for relatively small sizes, such as 1 or 2 CDs. So, an XviD high bitrate matrix might be good for bitrates of max 1500 or so. In addition, people using those matrices are usually doing their encodes for resolutions lower than DVD resolution. There are some true XviD High Bitrate matrices, but none were included in that poll, and when used, it's usually for larger file sizes (half a DVDR or more), higher resolutions and for much higher bitrates.

None of those in the poll (I don't have the CG-Animation matrix, so I couldn't get a look at it) can be even remotely considered to be a high bitrate matrix. The only one that wouldn't be considered a low bitrate matrix for DVD is the Bulletproof High Quality matrix, which may be just a touch better than the CCE Standard Matrix, which I consider to be only of medium quality.

However, if you wait a bit, the next version of Rockas's Matrix Editor may give you some true DVD high bitrate matrices to fool around with.

@manono
I stand humbly corrected. I (mistakenly) thought the poll was a vote for high bitrate matrices.

Yes, I'm quite interested in experimenting with various matrices. I really don't do much VCD or SVCD work at all, save a few tape transfers of some old home videos. And I really don't do much with DivX, though my Philips DVP642 supports up to DivX 5 playback. I backup very few animated (Pixar, Disney, etc) movies. From what I understand, animated movies are more tolerant of low bitrates as long as you keep the animation smooth.

@manono & Rockas
Since I have quite a few matrices, perhaps you can give me some pointers as to which of these would be worthwhile for DVD application only, and how would you use them (high, mid, low, very low bitrate)

28DaysLater
Acailas
Andreas 78er
Andreas double 99er
Andreas simple 99er
Angel BestLow
Angel BestVeryLow
AUTO-Q1
AUTO-Q2
AVAMAT6
BACH1 by DDogg
BDVD
Bulletproof's Heavy Compression
Bulletproof's High Quality
CCE Smooth (CG, etc.)
CCE Ultra low Bitrate
CCE Ultra very Bitrate
Didee's SixOfNine
Didee's SixOfNine (HVS)
EthanolixX Four Rooms
Fox Home Entertainment
H.263 (Intel?)
HC
HVS Best Picture
HVS Better Picture
HVS Good Picture
iVCD by Fl0ppy
Jawor's 1CD
Kika Comic High
Kika Comic Low
Kika Trickfilm High
Kika Trickfilm Low
Low Bitrate (comes with DVD-RB PRO)
Max GE 1900 kbps
Max LT 1900 kbps
mb 1 DV 720x576 min 2000
mb 1 interlaced DV
MPEG Standard
Packed DVD by Fl0ppy
Professional
QLB
RebuMan QuEnc (b1)
Selur - high datarate
Selur's matrix
Semi-insane
Sharktooth's EQM v1
Sharktooth's EQM v2
Sharktooth's EQM v3EHR
Sharktooth's EQM v3HR
Sharktooth's EQM v3LR
Sharktooth's EQM v3UHR
Sharktooth's EQM v3ULR
Smooth (CG)
Soulhunter's V3
Soulhunter's V5
Soulhunter's V6
Soulhunter's V8 (HV53)
TMPEGEnc CG
Ultimate Matrix
Very Low Bitrate (comes with DVD-RB PRO)
XviD-ffcw default
YACQM

I know this is quite a list, but much of these matrices have no documentation unless you search each one for tidbits of info on various threads, and then the info is not always understandable.

To make matters simple, which of these matrices would you recommend for the following bitrates:

high (>4500)
mid (3000-4500)
low (2000-3000)
ultra low (<2000 on a DVD)

Finally, is there a good analysis tool that can look at your DVD and determine what bitrate the movie should have and what the extras should have without a deep learning curve?

I've tried AutoCQ but there's no help file with it (the help menu is present but blanked out as an option.

Sorry for all the questions, but I find this very interesting and am a firm believer in passing along knowledge for the benefit of others, not just myself.

[manono]

Hi-

At least 4 in that list are real High Bitrate matrices, Sharktooth's EQM v3EHR, Fox Home Entertainment, Semi-insane, and Didee's SixOfNine. Just a notch below might be be Kika Trickfilm High, Soulhunter's V3, and Selur - high datarate. For pure digital sources, such as Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, and the Star Wars 1 and 2 movies, TMPEGEnc CG, and CCE Smooth (CG, etc.) are good. Kika Trickfilm High and Soulhunter's V3 might also be classified as CG matrices. This is not to say that there aren't others. I don't have all the ones in your list, and I'm not about to go looking for them. That list of the highest bitrate matrices doesn't include all that might be classified as such for DVD, and no insults of omission are intended to those that put in the time to develop them

Having said that, the only one I've ever seen on a DVD is the Fox Home Entertainment matrix, and I see that one used quite a bit in the very best quality DVDs. I'm sure at least some of the others are OK to use, though. Sharktooth's EQM v3EHR is an even higher bitrate matrix than is Fox Home Entertainment, and would be fine for DVD, I'm sure.

Since I have quite a few matrices, perhaps you can give me some pointers as to which of these would be worthwhile for DVD application only, and how would you use them (high, mid, low, very low bitrate)

No thanks. You'll learn how to spot them once you learn more about matrices and how they work. Search the Forums, especially the XviD Forum, and do some Googling.

Finally, is there a good analysis tool that can look at your DVD and determine what bitrate the movie should have and what the extras should have without a deep learning curve?

I use several. First, put your DVD in the DVD-ROM, and use DVD Bitrate Viewer (http://www.visualdomain.net/bitrate.htm) on it. It'll give you the average bitrate (including video, audio, subs, and overhead) for the various PGCs. One thing you're looking for besides just the overall bitrate, is if there's a nice high minimum bitrate (does the curve stay well above the bottom), so you can gain bits when reencoding by setting a much lower minimum bitrate. I'll run the vobs, or the M2V through BitRate Viewer (http://www.tecoltd.com/bitratev.htm) and look for a nice low Q-Level, so when compressing, I'll raise the Q-Level, but still keep it within acceptable limits for the matrix I decide to use. It doesn't give you correct values for NTSC people, though. They're always too high, but the main thing is the relative numbers between the original Q-Level, and what you get after reencoding. I'll open the M2V or the Vobs in ReStream (http://shh.sysh.de/restream.html) in order to learn what matrix was used in the original DVD, and other information about how it was encoded. To get the matrix used on a Vob, M2V, or MPV, hold your mouse arrow over the little square almost black boxes in the two Matrix sections.

There is no way to make hard rules about which matrix to use for a given bitrate. You can't decide to always use this matrix for a bitrate of 4500, this one for 4000, and a different one for 3500. Nor can you decide to use this matrix when compressing for 90%, this one for 75%, and this one for 50%. It doesn't work that way at all. There are too many variables involved. It's more a question of deciding how much overhead was allowed you in the original DVD. You'll find with experience which studios produce the best quality DVDs, and that usually means that they also have the greatest amount of overhead, which may allow you to compress it down using a high quality matrix. It also depends on what, if any, extras you want to keep, how large the menus are, and if you are willing to compress them down one way or another. It's a difficult subject, and I'm by no means an expert. But I'm learning. It's my firm opinion, though, that there's a noticeable improvement in the video quality when you're able to use, say, the Fox Home Entertainment Matrix instead of CCE's Standard Matrix, and that makes all the work and experimentation worthwhile.

I find this very interesting and am a firm believer in passing along knowledge for the benefit of others, not just myself.

I hope that wasn't a dig at me. I spent 3 hours last night preparing some things for Rockas, and the last hour replying to you (I think and type very slowly). I've spent way too much of the last 3 or 4 years at the Doom9 forums trying to help people, sharing what little I know about video encoding.

Sorry for the long post.

[feedback]

@manono
Here is a link to two Matrix zip folders (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=685833#post685833). Folder 1 has the KVCD Notch matrix, Fox, and some others that you may or may not have. Folder 2 is linked to LigH's site. Some are more for Xvid but work on mpeg2.

You are really helping :D in answering some Matrix questions along with Rockas that have been asked a thousand times before and I thank you.

Regards,:)

[Aquilonious]

Hi-
I hope that wasn't a dig at me. I spent 3 hours last night preparing some things for Rockas, and the last hour replying to you (I think and type very slowly). I've spent way too much of the last 3 or 4 years at the Doom9 forums trying to help people, sharing what little I know about video encoding.

Sorry for the long post.


@manono
Absolutely not! Au contraire, I sincerely thank you :) for taking the time in educating me in what can be deemed as a complex subject (matrices)--at least it is to me. (It certainly was no dig at you at all). I don't think you give yourself enough credit because I'm sure you've helped many over the the time you've been here on Doom9, but perhaps you haven't received the praise you deserve. I moderated a Win 3.x group some time ago and I know it being a moderator can be a thankless job. I'm here to thank you, both for being moderator and also for excellent and useful information. I'm sure Rockas would concur.

I see your willingness to share information and what I said was a personal statement/goal for myself in that I hope to pass on to others what you and Rockas have passed on to me. But before I do, I must perform additional experimentation and more exhaustive research--as you said, Googling and forum browsing--to make sure I give information that will be helpful and not misleading.

But for now I'm content to be a student and soak in as much as my wee brain will permit. :D

[mrwhitethc]

Manono is it possible for you to write a guide on what you are talking about, I followed it for the most part but am having trouble actually using what you said to help. I normally use DVD Rebuilder & CCE but have used the big 3 and will go back if this is needed to make a decent effect on the quality.

[manono]

Hi-

Actually, I was thinking about it because of something that Doom9 said in his new CCE 2.70 Guide: (http://www.doom9.org/mpg/cce270.htm)

If you can explain Quantization matrices to a person without a masters in signal processing, you can probably reconfigure quantization matrices on your own - if not, stay away from them.
I can't explain them either (it's something about the higher numbers as you go towards the lower right hand corners filtering the higher frequencies, giving a smoother and less detailed picture; the higher the numbers, the more the video gets filtered), but I can see the difference that different matrices make on the MPEG-2. However, much of what would be in that guide is contained a my previous post in this thread, and here. (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=697429#post697429) If you're asking how to get those matrices into CCE so you can use them, then you just fill in all the 128 numbers in the matrix boxes of CCE 2.7x, and save them with a name. Then, if you use one of the new matrices you've created, you can open the ECL and see them there.

You can also run a simple test to prove to yourself that, indeed, the matrix used does affect the video quality. Run several passes on a small section of a film (use the AviSynth Trim (http://www.avisynth.org/Trim) command to select the section you want). Do them both for the same size. Do one with the CCE Very Low Bitrate matrix (Low-High in the Rockas Matrix Editor), and the other with the Fox Home Entertainment matrix (High-High in RME). When done, compare the resulting average quant in Bitrate Viewer, and the relative quality with your eyes. Or, do the whole test using RME if you have the DVD-RB Pro version. Depending on the final size you choose, you may prove to yourself not only that a high bitrate matrix can make a big difference in the quality of the result, but also that it's not always possible to use a high bitrate matrix.

[curious d]

Just wondering: Has anyone tried movie only function and put both disc of ROTK extended edition on a DVD-5? I'm curious if it is even worth trying. Of course, I have to get open my copy.

[Aquilonious]

Just wondering: Has anyone tried movie only function and put both disc of ROTK extended edition on a DVD-5? I'm curious if it is even worth trying. Of course, I have to get open my copy.

I backed up the standard edition, movie & 5.1 soundtrack only. The compression was moderate to heavy but the backup still turned out reasonably well. I used CCE's default matrix. Did the same thing with Braveheart with similar results.

I think backing up ROTK Extended Edition would really require some major compression. You may want to split the backup into two discs, as I did with Alien & Aliens. You can do this via IFO editor and other tools. You also have the option of backing up to one DVD9 disc and avoid the whole compression scenario altogether. Of course, DVD9 discs are still $3-5 a pop, but I think it's worth it if you really like the movie and want a "lossless" backup of the original.

I eventually plan on selling my standard editions of the LOTR movies (I purchased them separately over time, not as a set) and getting the complete extended version set. When I do I will back up the movie discs using either DVD9 or two DVD5 discs.