Guide: How to burn Double Layer Disks with PgcEdit

[r0lZ]

This is the discussion thread about the new guide How to burn Double Layer Disks with PgcEdit (http://www.digital-digest.com/~blutach/dl_burn_guide2/dl_burning_with_pgcedit_v2.htm) for PgcEdit 0.6.0 or more, courtesy of Blutach. (Current guide updated for PgcEdit 7.0 or more.)

(See also How to burn ISO images with PgcEdit ensuring 32k gaps between IFOs and BUPs (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/blutach/Burning%20With%20PgcEdit.htm), also by blutach, and its discussion thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88606).)

[ron spencer]

This is a nice guide; awesome...but how long will it be good for?

that is, as new drives come out will you still be able to use DVD Decryptor to use them? Not sure how it burns...did each new version have a "recoder update" built in?

[r0lZ]

I don't think so. Most modern drvies are driven by standard commands. So, most of the new drives should be supported in the future.
And, maybe, LUK! will make a new burning app later? I hope so!

[ron spencer]

thanks...only reason I ask is that different drives will have different strategies for writing DL...companies like Gear and Wavelab update their "drive configurations", etc so I though DVD Decryptor may not be able to burn new drives...maybe if LUK were around he could comment....never know

[ron spencer]

took another look at the guide:

If you wish to burn again with DVD Decrypter but not use PgcEdit, remember to set the layer break back to automatic. Do this in DVD Decrypter via Tools – Settings – ISO Write Mode – Layer Break (for DL Media ) – Calculate Optimal

I had always thought DVD D needed a .MDS file to properly write a dual layer....

Also if the .ISO file has the layer break in it, does the above quote from the guide mean that you MUST tell DVD D where the layer break is as well? By telling to calculate optimal this may be different from the ISO is it not? Or is the ISO made from previous steps erased and you can just remember where the layer break was and enter it into DVD D.

Just wanted to clairify.

[r0lZ]

I had always thought DVD D needed a .MDS file to properly write a dual layer....I don't think so. The MDS file is just another method to specify the LB position. If you leave the automatic mode in the setups and don't provide a MDS file, I think DVDD will try to find the appropriate cell itself. But take in mind that the automatic method will probably not work (for example, if there are no cell suitable for the LB and beginning at the start of an ECC block.)

Also if the .ISO file has the layer break in it, does the above quote from the guide mean that you MUST tell DVD D where the layer break is as well? By telling to calculate optimal this may be different from the ISO is it not?I really don't know. As the LB cell you selected with PgcEdit is flagged as non-seamless and begins at an ECC block, DVDD should select that cell anyway. But if another cell is suitable as well, it may do a wrong assumption.

Or is the ISO made from previous steps erased and you can just remember where the layer break was and enter it into DVD D.If the ISO is erased, you cannot burn it again, of course!
If you want to burn the same ISO again, either leave the original LB sector in the DVDD setups, or, if you have burned another DVD in the meantime, you have to specify the LB manually.
Note that the LB sector is in the ISO creation log generated by PgcEdit, and in the burn log generated by DVDD. And you can also examine the burned DVD with DVDD is ISO mode to see where the LB was placed.

The warning message in the guide is there to hilite the fact that the setups are changed automatically by PgcEdit, but are not restored to the default after the burn. So, if you want to burn an ISO generated by a totally different method (for example, a 1:1 rip by DVDD, with a MDS file), you may have to reset the setup manually.

[Zugwrack]

I read all the thread and stuff from blutach regarding maintaining 32 k etc...I didn't see any mention on if it is just possible to dump a dvd (assuming size doesn't exceed capacity of dual layer disc) and then burn it straight back?

Thanks for the fine information too!

Zugwrack

[r0lZ]

You can do a 1:1 copy with DVD Decrypter: rip in ISO mode, and burn the ISO.

[2COOL]

Or use ImgTool Classic (http://www.coujo.de/ib2/index.php?act=module&module=include&incl_name=download).

[blutach]

Or use ImgTool Classic (http://www.coujo.de/ib2/index.php?act=module&module=include&incl_name=download).... which is the "engine" of the PgcEdit imagemaker. :)

Personally, I prefer the PgcEdit GUI and the optional LB positioning.

Regards

[tlavalle]

one quick question why is it i get Error loading NAV pack from whatever loaction

[bac]

Once you've created the dvd iso with pgcedit, do you really need to use dvddecrypter to avoid messing up the layer break? I'm wondering if writing with nero in iso mode would work as well. Does nero change the iso's layer break, use it, or simply ignore it (picking its own different point for the physical layer break)? Just trying to get a handle if nero is *still* hopelessly broken with respect to dual layer after all this time, or whether it can be made to do the right thing in conjunction with pgcedit.

[r0lZ]

Honestly, I don't know. I don't use Nero anymore. :)
The latest tests I did with Nero 6.6.0.8 were not conclusive at all. The 32K gaps were lost, and burning a DL DVD with Nero can be a real hassle.
If you really wants to use another application, use RecordNow (either Stomp or Sonic version.) It should respect the 32K gaps, and be able to burn DL DVDs. But it's not free.

Also, note that Lightning UK! will release a new burning application (without the DVDD 'illegal' stuff) called ImgBurn (http://www.imgburn.com/). PgcEdit already supports it in v0.6.1 final. ImgBurn should be released soon, and I will release the new version of PgcEdit immediately after.

[Taelon]

Also, note that Lightning UK! will release a new burning application (without the DVDD 'illegal' stuff) called ImgBurn (http://www.imgburn.com/). PgcEdit already supports it in v0.6.1 final. ImgBurn should be released soon, and I will release the new version of PgcEdit immediately after.Thanks for letting the 'cat out of the bag' r0lZ ;) I'm looking forward to both releases now.

[nwg]

Nero is really only worth using if you don't change anything and do a exact 1:1 copy. If you change something. The layer change position will be very likely in a different position which Nero deicdes when burning.

However, DVD Decrypter is still the best way to burn a DL disc. I have had a DVD Recorder where a Nero burned DL+R didn't work and couldn't be read. The same files burned with DVD Decrypter worked fine.

[bac]

Thanks. Recordnow looks interesting since according to the vcdhelp.com folks, you don't need to convert your video_ts folder to an .iso before burning a dual layer with a good layer break. (Ie you save a step). PS: Bestbuy has verbatim dvd+r dl on sale for $20/10 pack (web price only but you can pick up), so it looks like dl is now cost effective.

[nwg]

I have also heard that Recordnow is good for DL. I wished I could get Verbatim for that kind of money. They would cost me £40/$70 for 10. As, I don't pay that I settle for Datafe Riteks which has worked out well with my Pioneer 109. I pay £2 each for those.

[r0lZ]

Thanks. Recordnow looks interesting since according to the vcdhelp.com folks, you don't need to convert your video_ts folder to an .iso before burning a dual layer with a good layer break. (Ie you save a step).Right, but you will have to use PgcEdit's burn DL function to patch the IFOs. If you don't do that, recordnow will probably not be able to select the right cell. Therefore, you should use PgcEdit to select the LB. The IFO and BUP files are modified when you hit OK. You may then cancel the main burn dialog, and burn the DVD with recordnow. Should work, but I have not tested this procedure.

[bac]

Right, but you will have to use PgcEdit's burn DL function to patch the IFOs. If you don't do that, recordnow will probably not be able to select the right cell. Therefore, you should use PgcEdit to select the LB.If I use .ifo's from dvd-9's that I have previously ripped in file mode (as opposed to .ifo's I authored) then I assume I don't need to do any patching. I know, should have ripped in .iso mode :)

[Pudah]

Also, note that Lightning UK! will release a new burning application (without the DVDD 'illegal' stuff) called ImgBurn. PgcEdit already supports it in v0.6.1 final. ImgBurn should be released soon, and I will release the new version of PgcEdit immediately after.This is great news. I'm glad to hear that LightningUK! is still putting his programming talent to good use.


Recordnow looks interesting since according to the vcdhelp.com folks, you don't need to convert your video_ts folder to an .iso before burning a dual layer with a good layer break. (Ie you save a step). PS: Bestbuy has verbatim dvd+r dl on sale for $20/10 pack (web price only but you can pick up), so it looks like dl is now cost effective.It would be very cool if ImgBurn could also burn discs directly from VIDEO_TS/AUDIO_TS folders in addition to burning images. Maybe LightningUK! can add this as a feature in the future (though would that mean he couldn't call the program ImgBurn?).

I just placed an order for those DL discs from BB so hope to soon have my first try at DL burning.

[bac]

I did a burn with recordnow, and it seems like the layer break was done right. But how can I tell if the burn really put the physical layer break in the right spot? After the burn, dvddecrypter tells me the # of sectors for the first layer, and ifoedit shows the logical layer break (and it was preserved). But how can I find out the sector # for the logical layer break (or otherwise truly verify it)? Playback looks good at the logical layer break, but that might not be where the real layer change is.
Never mind: I summed up the VTS sector offset, the cell sector offset, and a few others, as reported by ifoedit, and got a match.

[Taelon]

For anyone else wondering, LUK! Outlined a method to calculate the layer break in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=100386)

[ron spencer]

This is good news for LUK....if one chooses a layer break in PGCEdit and makes the ISO in PGCEdit what will happen with IMGBurn? That is, will IMGBurn just read the layer break from the ISO made or will you manually have to specify the layer break in IMGBurn like with DVDD?

[r0lZ]

I have already asked this question to LUK!
Don't worry, ImgBurn will not ask for the layer break position if it is already specified, and is valid.
Furthermore, LUK! has added a /LAYERBREAK command line option in ImgBurn. Therefore, I have removed the trick with the registry settings, when the burn program is ImgBurn. Of course, it is still used with DVDD.

[r0lZ]

If I use .ifo's from dvd-9's that I have previously ripped in file mode (as opposed to .ifo's I authored) then I assume I don't need to do any patching. I know, should have ripped in .iso mode :)Right again, but why do you want to rip in File mode if you don't change anything to the DVD? In this case, it is also possible to use Nero, and probably most burning apps, to do a direct copy.
In the other hand, if you use any program to change something in the IFOs or VOBs, then you must recalculate the VTS pointers. And, as far as I know, only PgcEdit is able to do that correctly, and with a GUI and a preview.

[bac]

Right again, but why do you want to rip in File mode if you don't change anything to the DVD? Because I tend to like to disable playback of redundant splash screens, studio disclaimers, etc. And until now I was used to splitting across 2 dvds.In this case, it is also possible to use Nero, and probably most burning apps, to do a direct copy.I thought the point was that nero wouldn't work well for direct copies as you can't trust it to put the physical layer break where the vob says it should be. Now you're confusing me :)In the other hand, if you use any program to change something in the IFOs or VOBs, then you must recalculate the VTS pointers. And, as far as I know, only PgcEdit is able to do that correctly, and with a GUI and a preview.I thought ifoedit's 'get vts sectors' button did the trick. But usually, I just move the PGC post commands to pre-commands, and disable playback that way, without deleting the offending cells. Thus I don't need to adjust sector offsets (and don't have to worry about PGC commands trying to trick me by testing for register side effects)

[ron spencer]

you are right r0lZ, PGCEdit is the ONLY app that has a GUI for layer break assigning....not even the exaulted Gear does that!!!

You mention a "registry" trick for layer break and DVDD...I never knew there was one...what is the trick and what is it for ? Just curious.....

I am so eager to try the PGCEdit/ImgBurn combo....any idea on release?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

ImgBurn has now been released!

Not sure if the appropriate PGCEdit exists already though. r0lZ may well have been waiting for me - sorry!

[r0lZ]

I thought the point was that nero wouldn't work well for direct copies as you can't trust it to put the physical layer break where the vob says it should be. Now you're confusing me :)Nero should be able to do a 1:1 copy, as the layer break is probably not changed by this operation, if you don't write the DVD files to disc. You should burn 'on the fly', or an ISO created by Nero. Anyway, Nero is the worst choice to burn a DVD-Video!

I thought ifoedit's 'get vts sectors' button did the trick. But usually, I just move the PGC post commands to pre-commands, and disable playback that way, without deleting the offending cells. Thus I don't need to adjust sector offsets (and don't have to worry about PGC commands trying to trick me by testing for register side effects)IfoEdit's Get VTS Sectors do a minimal job. It is theorically sufficient for a DVD-5, but your DVD will not be protected against defects or scratches, as it is unable to add the 32K gaps needed to ensure that the IFO and the BUP are not on the same ECC block.
Also, IfoEdit cannot 'fix' the sector pointers to align the layer break properly. If you burn DVD files on a DVD 9, it's crucial!

[r0lZ]

You mention a "registry" trick for layer break and DVDD...I never knew there was one...what is the trick and what is it for ? Just curious.....Well, since DVDD has no CLI option to specify the layer break sector, I write it directly in his setup in the registry. DVDD load it when it starts. The problem is that, since DVDD is running in the background, PgcEdit cannot restore the original setup after the burn. I hate that, but it's the only simple workaround I've found.

Since ImgBurn has been released today, I will try it, and release PgcEdit 0.6.1 as soon as possible. Maybe today...

[ron spencer]

yummy LUK!!!!!

[rui.m.godinho]

Imgburn is out !!!!

http://www.imgburn.com/

[nwg]

Imgburn is out !!!!

http://www.imgburn.com/


I noticed. I wonder if there is any difference in burning with IMGBurn when creating a 1:1 DL ISO with DVD Decrypter.

[rui.m.godinho]

I still cant get fine burns even with this method.

Here are 2 scans, both burned with a PX-716a 1.08 firmware with DVDD @2,4x. The .ISO is being burned from a Raid Raptor Sata controller to a primary IDE controller (PX-716a being master, nothing more plugged in the data cable):

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/8605/scan23gf.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4281/scan19rw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

We can consider it good burns, but my problem is that I can maintain a constant low pif like in the 1st pic before layer break.

I see in some reviews burns scans made to these media and I cant almost notice layer break on the graphic. Even from another users wich use the same drive and media used.

What I'm I doing wrong ? Do u think it's the software ? Using imgburn should solve ?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

The software should have no effect. This is a drive / firmware / media issue - if an issue exists at all?!

They quality of burns from Plextor drives seems to vary on a per drive basis. I got 2 PX-712A from the same batch - with serial numbers one after the other. One drive produced significantly better burns than the other.

Unless you're having problems reading the discs in your players, what's the big deal?

There's life beyond PIE/PIF scans you know ;)

[nwg]

There's life beyond PIE/PIF scans you know ;)

I ignore them. I never had a problem with a disc playing and it doesn't mean this scans show a bad burn. The quality of the DVD player can determine how well it compensates using error correction.

I knew someone whow as obsessed with these scans and he ended up testing the DVD's more than he watched them.

[BECK38]

Well, it appears that decent tools are becoming available just in time for DL media to drop down in price where one doesn't grit one's teeth so hard the dentist becomes not an option but nessesity....!

However, I've followed the pgcedit Burn Guide to the letter and have one major question. Understand that I've burn totally successfully using latest (final?) Rel.6 version of NERO (6.6.0.16) and Memorex 2.4 DL +R's.

When I get to step 7 in the guide ("Setting the Layer Break") the pgm completely skips over that section, going straight to the ImgBurn. The final bit on the guide ("If the layer break doesn't open...an error message will be displayed and you will need to re-author the disk") doesn't 'pop up'. My reasoning for attempting to get this methodology (in the first place) was 'look around' the structure and see '"what's up".

Latest s/w, particularly PGCEdit vr. 0.6.1, and there are small differences between the guide and the s/w, but nothing obvious/major. Perhaps this is all still 'bleeding edge', but as media costs drift below $2/disk I'm sure that many will give things a try, either with or without NERO (I ran into major problems myself with them around vr. 6.6.14 to the point of rolling back several versions until some stability was achieved on single layer) and /or PGCEdit fans.

I would 'guess' that everything must be 'okay' in this latest version, but thought after reading up all the threads dedicated to this, upon finding nothing specifically of note, I'd give a shot and see what falls out here before going the final step.

TIA

[r0lZ]

The layer break selection window is opened only if your compilation don't fit on a single layer DVD.
So, either your compil fits on a DVD-5, or there is something wrong in your burn setups. Please verify the values of the Number of Sectors in a Single Layer DVD and in a Double Layer DVD.
Also, before launching the burn, have a look at the topmost part of the main burn window. If your DVD is too big for a DVD-5, you should see the "DVD-5 full at X %" message in red. If it is black, the LB selection window will not be opened.

Note that you cannot use Nero to burn the ISO created by PgcEdit (though I don't have tested the latest release.) Nero has the bad habit to remove the gaps between IFO or VOB and BUP files, and PgcEdit's method rely heavily on those gaps.

[BECK38]

Also, before launching the burn, have a look at the topmost part of the main burn window. If your DVD is too big for a DVD-5, you should see the "DVD-5 full at X %" message in red. If it is black, the LB selection window will not be opened.

Note that you cannot use Nero to burn the ISO created by PgcEdit (though I don't have tested the latest release.) Nero has the bad habit to remove the gaps between IFO or VOB and BUP files, and PgcEdit's method rely heavily on those gaps.

Oh , very definately is over dvd5 size (>7.5G), the burn window definately says so, the message is in red, and the Layer Break section is not opened. And yes, I read the part about NERO removing the gaps, absolutely. The Burns I've done with NERO have been files, not ISO's, and 'just for fun' I ran the sectors check on the blank disk, and it matched what PGCEdit has as the default.

So, it's just one of those 'head scratchers' type of questions....

[BECK38]

What I'm getting, and unable to track down the reason, is underneath all the windows that pop up all over the place (pgcedit, imgburn, you name it) is a small, almost hidden 'ERROR' window from PGCEdit saying "Cannot find First VMG sector". Happens on every (well all 7+ burns I've run with this pgm).

Don't know why, or what exactly it's refering to, as the VMG sectors are listed dead on the PGCEdit program window.

[r0lZ]

Hum, that's interesting. Are you sure you use the right version of MkISOFS? You need v2.01 or +. You can verify in the burn setrup dialog.

Explanation of the error:
To place the layer break at the right position, I need to know how many sectors are used by the file system and various headers before the data of the first file (VIDEO_TS.IFO) begins in the ISO. Knowing this value, I can compute the gaps to leave between the files to place the layer break where it should be.
Since PgcEdit rely on MkISOFS to build the ISO, I cannot compute the position of VIDEO_TS.IFO. And, if something is changed in a future version of MkISOFS, the computed position may be wrong.
So, I use a trick to determine the real position of the file: I launch MkISOFS with the same arguments than for the final burn, but instead of writing the ISO on HDD, the output is piped in PgcEdit, and analyzed. VIDEO_TS.IFO must begin with the string "DVDVIDEO-VMG". So, I examine the beginning of each sector, and when the string is found, MkISOFS is killed, and the process continues normally.
In your case, the string DVDVIDEO-VMG is never found, or it is not at the beginning of a sector. Therefore, either there is a bug in your version of MkISOFS, or the identifier of VIDEO_TS.IFO is missing or corrupted.

Could you verify with IfoEdit: load VIDEO_TS.IFO, and expand the VMGM_MAT table. The identifier is at offfset 0, in the top of the window, and should be DVDVIDEO-VMG.

BTW, someone else had already experienced a similar problem. I don't remember exactly what was the problem, but I think it was related to a wrong version of MkISOFS. I think that problem was repoprted here at Doom9 forum. Try a search...

[lemmy999]

This may be a stupid question, but the log file from PGCEdit gives this result:

Layer break is at absolute sector 2058704. (Offset in L0 is 52189.)
Layer break cell:
2006515: VTST 1 , 4 TTN 4 (25:40) Title 4 Cell 1 (00:00:22.10), V/CID: 4/1
'' : VTST 1 , 7 TTN 7 (2:31:49) Title 7 Cell 21 (00:00:22.10), V/CID: 4/1

When I later burn this image wtih ImgBurn and I want to manually specify the offset, do I put in 2058704 or do I put in 52189?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Just leave ImgBurn's Layer Break settings on 'Calculate Optimal'. It'll pick up the correct value from the IFO files without you having to mess around.

[lemmy999]

Just leave ImgBurn's Layer Break settings on 'Calculate Optimal'. It'll pick up the correct value from the IFO files without you having to mess around.

Thanks. But I went ahead and started a burn with the 2058704 value. I will not be able to check on it until tomorrow. Will that be the correct value?

[r0lZ]

Yes, don't worry. But remember to reset the DVDD setting to Optimal before burning another DL, or the wrong value will be used!

[cmurda]

Oh , very definately is over dvd5 size (>7.5G), the burn window definately says so, the message is in red, and the Layer Break section is not opened. And yes, I read the part about NERO removing the gaps, absolutely. The Burns I've done with NERO have been files, not ISO's, and 'just for fun' I ran the sectors check on the blank disk, and it matched what PGCEdit has as the default.

So, it's just one of those 'head scratchers' type of questions.... Hello everyone. This is a fantastic site. I've learned quite a bit just breezing through the various parts of the forum. I am however hung up on trying to use PGCedit. I seem to have the same problem as Beck38 here. After I get to step 6, I get the image classic directory, I put my source and backup directories and after it is done I never get to step 7. The size is definitely greater than the DVD-5. Do I maybe have something on options wrong or am I doing something wrong? Any advice would be appreciated.

[r0lZ]

What operating system are you using? Windows XP?

[cmurda]

What operating system are you using? Windows XP?Yes, Im using xp.

[cmurda]

Rolz, Would you guess its the options I have ticked or maybe the process I am going through to get to that step?

[r0lZ]

Well, I really don't know! I don't understand this problem. Seems it is present only on a very limited number of computers. Maybe something strange in your system, such as a bad DLL.

Last thing to verify: do you have some foreign characters in the filenames or paths of your DVD or mkisofs?