DVD-Audio ripper

[rjamorim]

Greetings

I just uploaded to RareWares a tool that enables WinDVD owners to rip full quality DVD-Audio tracks encrypted with CPPM.

It does so by launching/patching WinDVD 5/6/7 and redirecting the stream to disk instead of the sound card after decryption.

Check it out: http://www.rarewares.org

Best regards;

Roberto.

PS: I didn't test it, as I don't have any DVD-Audio disk, so please don't flame me too hard if it turns out not to work :P

[Wilbert]

Thumbs up! I can't wait to try this out :)

[rjamorim]

i assume this means it outputs a decoded wav and not only does decrypting?

I honestly don't know. I don't have any DVD-A to test it here.

Also, the guy that pointed me to it mentioned there is a catch: WinDVD won't play unencrypted and watermarked DVD-As. The logic is this:

you can play encrypted with watermarking (original)
you can play encrypted without watermarking (original)
you can play unencrypted without watermarking (home)
you can't play unencrypted with watermarking (pirate)

Strangely enough, PowerDVD will play unencrypted and watermarked streams fine :B

[SeeMoreDigital]

Quite honestly if these apps (or similar apps) can't strip the encryption from an DVD-A stream without re-encoding it to say WAV, I can't see the point of them!

I have around 20No DVD-A disc's and all of them come with an unencrypted 6Ch AC3 element.

For all we know, the current 6Ch AC3 element sounds just as good as converting 6Ch DVD-A to 6Ch WAV :eek:


Cheers

[Doom9]

Quite honestly if these apps (or similar apps) can't strip the encryption from an DVD-A stream without re-encoding it to say WAV, I can't see the point of them!May I remind you that some 6 years ago DVD ripping meant framegrabbing and recording using an audio recorder software? It wasn't much but it was a start.

[SeeMoreDigital]

May I remind you that some 6 years ago DVD ripping meant framegrabbing and recording using an audio recorder software? It wasn't much but it was a start. Agreed, there's no denying any positive start in this field has got to be a welcome start.

However, the ultimate goal in backing up DVD-A disc must be generating a clean (non encrypted) DVD-A stream.

rjamorim, if you don't have any DVD-A disc's of your own to try, please PM me and I'll post you one of mine!


Cheers

[rjamorim]

Quite honestly if these apps (or similar apps) can't strip the encryption from an DVD-A stream without re-encoding it to say WAV, I can't see the point of them!

As you probably noticed, there are several "tools" for DVD-A ripping at RareWares. dvdaripper.exe just unencrypts the AOBs, so that you can later burn them to another DVD. And ppcmripper.exe can take these unencrypted AOBs and output high quality wavs out of them.

[SeeMoreDigital]

As you probably noticed, there are several "tools" for DVD-A ripping at RareWares. dvdaripper.exe just unencrypts the AOBs, so that you can later burn them to another DVD. Well that's the holy grail tool for us DVD-A fans!

And ppcmripper.exe can take these unencrypted AOBs and output high quality wavs out of them. Useful I guess, but the WAV files must be massive when compared to the AOB files.

Admittedly, the WAV's could be used as a source to re-encode to other formats... But like I hinted at earlier, this can be done anyway by using the AC3 stream. That said, the audio quality of an "AOB->WAV->other format" might be better than an "AC3->other format", but would it be worth the effort?


Cheers

[Wilbert]

@rjamorim,

So it's also possible to uncompress those MLP audio files (having WinDVD)?

edit: MLP = PPCM, sorry i forgot about that :)

edit2: usage: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=34368&st=25 (the first post of skamp and the one after that)

edit3:
As you probably noticed, there are several "tools" for DVD-A ripping at RareWares. dvdaripper.exe just unencrypts the AOBs, so that you can later burn them to another DVD. And ppcmripper.exe can take these unencrypted AOBs and output high quality wavs out of them.
If i understand it correctly, the decoding to wav doesn't hold for the MLP (aka PPCM) tracks because WinDVD can't play them :confused:

[rjamorim]

Useful I guess, but the WAV files must be massive when compared to the AOB files.

Yes, but you can also resample and dither during conversion from PPCM, according to reports from people that already tried the programs. WinDVD actually takes care of that.

I don't know if the superior (?) quality compared to AC3 makes it worth the effort, but at least now it can be done. :)


Now let's start the countdown until a RIAA registered letter arrives at my mailbox...

[Stereodude]

As you probably noticed, there are several "tools" for DVD-A ripping at RareWares. dvdaripper.exe just unencrypts the AOBs, so that you can later burn them to another DVD. And ppcmripper.exe can take these unencrypted AOBs and output high quality wavs out of them.
Unless I'm misreading the help files you don't have to use dvdaripper.exe first. It seems you can use ppcmripper.exe on a commercial disc.

"2. Load DVD-Audio disc (original or decrypted copy) into DVD drive."

[Stereodude]

Well, for what it's worth I can't get Gear Pro Mastering Edition to make a DVD-A on my PC. It reads the files and processes them, then prompts for video files, and after reading those the audio_ts files are gone.

ppcmripper.exe will decode 2 channels from the original DVD-A disc however.

[darkedgex]

That said, the audio quality of an "AOB->WAV->other format" might be better than an "AC3->other format", but would it be worth the effort?It would be higher quality. IIRC the frequency range for DVD-A (AOB) content can be much higher than that of AC3 encoded (VOB) content. Further, the AOB content is lossless (be it either PCM or MLP (Meridian Lossless Packing)), so as a high quality source the AOB makes more sense.

Basically, I think anyone who's interested in ripping DVD-A is likely doing so from the position of wanting to have the high quality content DVD-A offers. Otherwise they'd be ripping CD's instead. :P

[plonk420]

dang, i sold my Linkin Park Reanimated DVD, and there's only 1 DVD-A disc on Blockbuster Online. anyone have Netflix (and know if they have any?)

[grug2k]

Unless I'm misreading the help files you don't have to use dvdaripper.exe first. It seems you can use ppcmripper.exe on a commercial disc.

"2. Load DVD-Audio disc (original or decrypted copy) into DVD drive."You can do it without dvdaripper, but note:

"5. Only stereo (original or downmix) can be captured from CSS/CPPM-protected discs. That is the feature of WinDVD Player. For multichannel capture decrypt disc first. "

[Revgen]

Netflix only carries movies.

[Nedfu]

Testing this on my Michael Mcdonald - Motown DVD-A. The case says MLP so I ran ppcmripper. It's going now and making a wav file, should it be playing it and ripping in real-time like it is?

Edit- track 1 was only 42mb and no data from what I can tell. How can you tell if a disc is watermarked? It does have the DVDAUDIO.MKB file.

[grug2k]

If the disc is protected and you're attempting to decode a multichannel mix it won't work, you need to rip the whole thing with dvdaripper first.

DVD Decrypter+DVDARipper-> .ISO -> PPMRipper gave me a nice 5ch 24/96 WAV...One 4:45 track was almost 500MB in size. FLACced that was about 260MB.

[Cyberace]

I thought the Verance Watermark Secure Digital Music Initiative (SDMI) had already been been hacked (link) (http://cryptome.org/sdmi-attack.htm)?, Jon Lech Johansen (aka 'DVD-Jon', the guy who officialy cracked CSS) released a new SDMI crack (link) (http://www.nanocrew.net/software/SDMI/) recently but his link is now dead :( ...however (as always), google to the rescue => Jon+Lech+SDMI search (link) (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Jon+Lech+SDMI&meta=), and SDMI crack DVD-A search (link) (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=SDMI+crack+DVD-A) :)

[Nedfu]

I was able to rip the /audio_ts with dvdaripper, then I did the /video_ts with dvdecryptor. Then I created an iso of those 2 folders and mounted with alcohol. Windvd will play those and the information tab says it's downmixing the 24bit/44khz 6 channel packed PCM 6350kbit.

But then I burned the iso to a dvd+r and my pioneer dvd-a/sacd player chokes after telling it to play the 6 channel dvd-a track or 2 channel dvd-a track. Any ideas?

[peteag]

what????? i don't understand this procedure. i have an old dvd-audio which was included in my audigy2-package. i don't know if this is protected. when i input the commands into dvdaripper nothing happend. even when i hit the play button. windvd is very unfluid in playing back dvd-audios. nothing happend. can someone give me an exact list of doings?

[Stereodude]

I was able to rip the /audio_ts with dvdaripper, then I did the /video_ts with dvdecryptor. Then I created an iso of those 2 folders and mounted with alcohol. Windvd will play those and the information tab says it's downmixing the 24bit/44khz 6 channel packed PCM 6350kbit.
and
DVD Decrypter+DVDARipper-> .ISO -> PPMRipper gave me a nice 5ch 24/96 WAV...One 4:45 track was almost 500MB in size. FLACced that was about 260MB.
How did you two make the .ISO with the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders? I can't seem to get anywhere with Gear Pro.

@grug2k: What did you mount the ISO with, or did you actually burn it?

[grug2k]

I made the ISO using Nero. I just made a DVD-Video compilation, dragged the DVD Decrypter output into VIDEO_TS, the dvdaripper output into AUDIO_TS, made an .iso using Nero's Image recorder, and mounted it using Alcohol 120%. (Although Daemon Tools or Nero Virtual Drive would work too).

Once its done, I just mount the image, load up WinDVD via ppcmripper and direct it to the virtual drive.

[Stereodude]

I made the ISO using Nero. I just made a DVD-Video compilation, dragged the DVD Decrypter output into VIDEO_TS, the dvdaripper output into AUDIO_TS, made an .iso using Nero's Image recorder, and mounted it using Alcohol 120%. (Although Daemon Tools or Nero Virtual Drive would work too).

Once its done, I just mount the image, load up WinDVD via ppcmripper and direct it to the virtual drive.
Ok, thanks. I'll have to try this when I get home. I have a few DVD-As, but they are dual layer. I only have a single layer burner, so it has limited my options. Being able to make an .ISO that works with WinDVD will be great.

[Nedfu]

I used Winiso to make the iso. How can you tell if a disk is watermarked?

[Stereodude]

I used Winiso to make the iso. How can you tell if a disk is watermarked?
I don't think it's as simple as just copying the DVD-A files to the disc to make a DVD-A. One of the help files made a specific point to use one of only three specific authoring apps (Gear Pro Mastering being the preferred one), and said to never try using Nero for burning a DVD-A.

So, that might be why your disc that is not working in your Pioneer stand alone unit.

[rubycon]

I did some ripping on my DVD's the hard way:

I plugged the analog out of my Marantz universal player to a high quality audio card ( EMU-1820M, that I use mostly to translate high quality vinyls to 192K DVD-AUDIO), just to see how it worked.

Since I was interested only in backing up high quality Stereo I did a 24/96 PCM copy of a DVD ( Buenavista Social Club, Ry Cooder, Compai Segundo). So using wavelab-5 I did a DVD-audio ISO file and burned a disc.

What happened: every track pleyed for about 30 seconds and then the DVD went to stop: This is watermarking in action.

So I did a blank movie and put the original 24 bit file, spliced in tracks as its soundtrack and burned it as DVD-VIDEO. I played it again and.... It worked!.... No watermark checking in DVD -VIDEO to the soundtrack wave.

What about multichanel?, well that can be solved also, without not too much loss, by using DTS. Again, use the DTS track as the soundtrack on a blank VIdeo, and you'll get the highest possible quality of a watermarked source.

As far as I know, there is no software available up to now to erase watermarking.

The really interesting about the ripper is that it will save you some time, because I may say that the 24/96 copy using the EMU 1820M card is the closest you can get to the original. I bet nobody would be able to hear any difference.


As for some people here wondering why taking so much trouble having an AC3 track I must say they should go to some high end shop and spend one or two hours listening to a DVD Audio on a high end setup, and then come here and give their opinion again.
(Take with you some of those for example, Buenavista social Club, Ray Brown's Soular Energy, Mana's Sueños Liquidos, Pat Metheny Imaginary Day, Eagle's Hotel California, ELP's Bran Salad Surgery...)

Mp3 and ac3 sucks in my opinion. The only lossless compressed scheme I like is DTS...so far, but nothing comes close to 24/96 and 24/192, only vinyl comes close, when mastered using 1/2 speed and pressed using 180 or 200 gram baffles; and then played on a high quality set-up ( excellent MC catridge, excellent phono preamp). Of course the rest shall be high quality too, because if not, why bother in the first place.


Francisco

[Andrey]

That said, the audio quality of an "AOB->WAV->other format" might be better than an "AC3->other format", but would it be worth the effort?
As I remeber correctly, ac3 codec is not situable for music at all, because it has dynamic compression especially developed for movies sound encoding.

[SeeMoreDigital]

As I remeber correctly, ac3 codec is not situable for music at all, because it has dynamic compression especially developed for movies sound encoding.To be honest I would not know about this, as I have not studied the intricacies of the DolbyDigital codec.

Okay, AC3 audio is not in the same league as the audio stream on an DTS CD or even an DTS DVD but as long as the frequency range is something like 20Hz to 18-20kHz and the dynamic range extends to a min of 90db, I reckon given the bitrate, AC3 should work perfectly well.

Can anybody else confirm though?


Cheers

[Morbo]

AC3 is like anything else....it's all about bitrate.

IMHO,a stereo 192k AC3 file sounds better than the same in mp3...

But,do the math.....448k/bits for 6 channels vs DTS @ Cd speed (lossless@ 1.4 megs).

No contest.

I'm glad with BRD and DVD-HD we get lossless formats.

Cheers!

[thewonderer]

I reckon that if the DVD audio is decoded into Wave files, re-enconded as a DTS Audio CD or even a DTS DVD with hi res (96khz) sampling at max datarate (about 1.3mbps) would blow away the any AC3 file...

I realise the quality isn't as good as DVD AUDIO, but it would be far better than Ac3 and easy to play on your home dvd player....

What do you guys think?

[Stereodude]

I reckon that if the DVD audio is decoded into Wave files, re-enconded as a DTS Audio CD or even a DTS DVD with hi res (96khz) sampling at max datarate (about 1.3mbps) would blow away the any AC3 file...

I realise the quality isn't as good as DVD AUDIO, but it would be far better than Ac3 and easy to play on your home dvd player....

What do you guys think?
There's lots of things you can do with higher quality versions of the disc. Multichannel FLAC seems like a neat idea to try.

[Nedfu]

DTS-CD is not lossless and it's still a relatively pawltry 16bit 44.1khz.

Also, AC3 @448kbit has full extension to 20khz whereas DTS DVD @768kbit is only flat to ~16khz and then trails off. Neither is even vaguely comparable to the lossless 24bit DVD-A/SACD formats.

Regarding ripping to a 6 channel lossless 24bit wav, how would you play it later and output the 6 channels to a receiver?

[calinb]

One of the help files made a specific point to use one of only three specific authoring apps (Gear Pro Mastering being the preferred one), and said to never try using Nero for burning a DVD-A.Tracertek.com also has a DVD-A authoring proggy. Given that Gear Pro is the only program recommended in the readme file and given that Gear Pro costs much more than the Tracertek software, perhaps we should look for cheaper alternatives! Has anyone had success with any less expensive software?

[Revgen]

May I remind you that some 6 years ago DVD ripping meant framegrabbing and recording using an audio recorder software? It wasn't much but it was a start.

<OFFTOPIC>

That reminds me of a time when there was software that attempted to read DVD's using CD drives. I think it would attempt to read how the CD-ROM drive's laser would bounce off the DVD disc and try to interpret it into real data.

This was back in the day when DVD drives cost about 300-400 dollars.

Wow, I'm starting to feel old. :eek:

[daphy]

Tracertek.com also has a DVD-A authoring proggy. Given that Gear Pro is the only program recommended in the readme file and given that Gear Pro costs much more than the Tracertek software, perhaps we should look for cheaper alternatives! Has anyone had success with any less expensive software?

maybe this project (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=90955) will reach the wanted point :rolleyes:

Edit:
Changelog looks promising
[27 Mar 2005] Added FLAC support to dvda-author
[26 Mar 2005] Added support for up to 24-bit audio
[19 Mar 2005] Added support for up to 9 groups of tracks (available in latest alpha release)
[14 Mar 2005] First working version of dvda-author committed to CVS (16-bit Stereo, one group only)
[01 Mar 2005] Website launched
[21 Feb 2005] Project registered at Sourceforge

Versions
dvda-author-20050703.zip Bugfixes - correctly deal with the case of 9 groups, and ignore extra non-PCM RIFF chunks at the end of a WAV file (fixes some "clicks between tracks" problems)

dvda-author-20050402.zip Bugfixes - fixed bug with 24-bit Stereo files and also improved command-line parsing and error reporting.

dvda-author-20050328.zip Fixed support for 24-bit mono files.

dvda-author-20050327.zip Incorporated FLAC decoder to enable authoring directly from FLAC files

dvda-author-20050326.zip Support for 24-bit Stereo files (24-bit mono untested)

dvda-author-20050323c.zip Added support for mono files

dvda-author-20050323b.zip Bugfix - fixed bug that caused the ATSI to overflow when authoring a disc more than about 50-60 tracks in a single group. The ATSI is now either 2 or 3 sectors, depending on the number of tracks.

dvda-author-20050319.zip Add support for up to 9 groups of tracks. Added -pp option to correctly locate the AUDIO_PP.IFO file

dvda-author-20050315.zip Initial release - supports 16-bit Stereo audio at any DVD-Audio samplerate.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Regarding ripping to a 6 channel lossless 24bit wav, how would you play it later and output the 6 channels to a receiver?In much the same way most of us hook-up our DVD-A players to our surround-sound amps now.... via 6Ch analogue connection!


Cheers

[Stereodude]

Someone needs to write and firewire audio driver for the PC. That way the PC can output audio via "ilink" to compatible recievers.

[ron spencer]

the audio world is a-buzz!!!!

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=14550899

[rjamorim]

...and it's gone :)

I got a phone call from a big local lawyer office (no fake, I checked the caller ID and the phone number really belongs to a lawyer office). They have been hired to make me stop distributing the DVD-A tools. It was a reasonably big talk, but I can summarize it with

They: we are giving you two choices, either you remove all references to those tools from your site now, or we'll have to take you to court.

Me: I'm already removing!

They: Thank-you for your cooperation.


Oh, well. It's been fun. I'm amazed at how well it spread in these two days (!), and I'm sure from now on you'll be able to find those tools in countless mirrors, p2p and the like.

Shine on!

R.

[plonk420]

To be honest I would not know about this, as I have not studied the intricacies of the DolbyDigital codec.

Okay, AC3 audio is not in the same league as the audio stream on an DTS CD or even an DTS DVD but as long as the frequency range is something like 20Hz to 18-20kHz and the dynamic range extends to a min of 90db, I reckon given the bitrate, AC3 should work perfectly well.

Can anybody else confirm though?


not entirely sure about the dynamic range, but the "stereo coupling" frequency varies by bitrate (Joint Stereo-like feature, i'm guessing?)

[Andrey]

not entirely sure about the dynamic range, but the "stereo coupling" frequency varies by bitrate (Joint Stereo-like feature, i'm guessing?)
Dolby is rather secretive on the ac3 specs. :(
Something with dynamic compression is used by encoder to make movie sound more "natural", something related to "holman expiriment", I think.
But this operation may be(?) optional...
Stereo couling, As far as I know, works different from joint stereo. While js uses only another representation of stereo signal (converting from L/R to M/S) stereo coupling means that above some frequensy (10Khz usually) only one channel (as sum) is encoded.

[rubycon]

"as High Fidelity Review does not condone the theft of intellectual property or music piracy, we will not be posting a link to the Rarewares download site at this time. Readers who are looking for further information are advised to check one of the popular search engines or a high-resolution discussion forum for applicable URLs."

Piracy is an issue, but what happens with ligitimate uses?

What happens when the industry rip off our right to make copies? What happens with our right to make a copy to a friend, including your girl-( or boy-) friend ?( maybe not in the US, but in some countries this is a legal use according to the local copyright law)

what will happen when the copyright time has ended ? will verance and other cppm measures stop acting? ( they, for sure, will try to get a forever copyright time, such as the 100 year that is currently lobbying to get legislated in Eurpe)

This world is too weighted toward the rights of content publishers and now this ideology is so deep inside people that everything that defends peoples rights is consider piracy tools. But wait!, we, at H.Fidelity, are not condining it!. Just look yourelf for "Rarewares" in your favourite seach engine!!!.

meanwhile I've moved back to the exciting rediscovery of vinyl. But that's another story.


Rub

[mpucoder]

Dolby is rather secretive on the ac3 specs. :(
Not at all, the specs have been available for a long time as part of the ATSC suite of specs. You can download it here (http://www.atsc.org/standards.html) Look for A/52A "Digital Audio Compression (AC-3) Standard, Rev. A"

[SeeMoreDigital]

...and it's gone :) And just when it was starting to get interesting :eek:

The idea of converting multi-channel DVD-A to a multi-channel lossless format, such as FLAC, was definitely flagging my attention!


Cheers

[Andrey]

mpucoder
Big thanks for the link !
Some times ago I searched for such a specs on dolby site and failed...

[rubycon]

http://www.wise-intern.org/journal02/maxvilimpoc.pdf

Rub

[rubycon]

http://serg.us/paper/dmca_thesis.htm

Interesting how the DMCA is intruding into free speech rights, and how it is actually used to cesor thought and stop free publishing in the internet.



Rub

PD: This thesis states that DMCA complies with US constitution, as oposed to the view of my previous post, that is the document in wich it's author states his doubts regarding its use against free speech and, also, in an international context.

[Nedfu]

I tried burning with Gear Pro but it still hangs when selecting the dvd-a 5.1 or 2 channel mixes. I have to press stop and then restart the disc to access the menu again. The only thing that works is the menu and the dolby digital/video rubbish on the disc.

[rubycon]

Although I'm happy about that FLAC initiative, I think DVD forum is weighted toward MLP lossless.

It would be fantastic to have some free tools to do MLP compliant wave files to be used in DVD-A, but I think MLP doesn't allow free tools. I don't know if the DMCA allows reverse engineering on MLP to allow program interoperability. At least in practice this is being heavyly prosecuted by the lawyers of the media companies, so that DMCA provision is practically useless.

It really socks that the DVD-A standard is not 100% open.

Rub

[calinb]

Piracy is an issue, but what happens with ligitimate uses?

What happens when the industry rip off our right to make copies?

Rub
What happens to me is I stop buying!!! (I hope the pilgolopolists are monitoring this forum!) I bought a couple of DVD-As once, but stopped as soon as I realized the fomat was completely unfair. Ditto for iTunes! If the pigos won't play fair and if the pigos, with their big legal budgets, can shut down the 3rd party tools that enable fair options for the consumer, I won't open my wallet. (Thanks for hosting, however briefly, rjamorim! :thanks: )

Okay, I know a rant is getting a bit off thread, but this is the thread the pigos will be monitoring and they need to hear how they are killing a major consumer base. Face it, mp3 file sharers don't care about audio quality! Who is buying your DVD-As, you stupid pigos! (DVD-As are not exactly flying off the shelves!) It's not the mp3 file sharers. Get a clue!

[drmih]

I had a play with the tools and found them partially successful, but obviously in need of more development - maybe this will never happen.

Using dvdaripper you can create the file structure again on your HDD, and assuming that the AUDIO_TS and if you want it VIDEO_TS directories are under 4.38 Gb (I'm too mean to waste dual layers on this) you can burn a compliant disc using GEAR Pro Mastering. This disc will play fine on a pc, or if you mount the files as an iso image on your HDD, without burning the disc. However, when played in a standalone dvd-A player, because of the watermarks, all the functionality is there but when you play a track it either 'mutes' or stops as soon as a watermark is reached.

If you look at the programme dvdaexplorer, this looks at the structure of the disc and allows each mlp track to be seperated out - I'm assuming that the watermarks are still in place. There is an option to convert to a wav file, but this is always greyed out - perhaps a future enhancement. Technically there are programmes, such as Sonic DVD-Audio Creator, which will process mlp files. It has a function that takes each track and creates a RAW and xms? file for each mlp track, but I haven't got a clue how to use this and so have stopped there - I don't know if after this processing that the watermarks are cleaned out.

ppcmripper extracts wav files from the original dvd-audio disc. This seems to work okay but only extracts 2 channel wav files. The documentation says that if the disc is first ripped (I'm assuming using dvdaripper) that the multichannels can also be converted to wav. However, the programme does not have the option to select an input directory (it defaults to the disc drive), so you have to either convert the ripped files to an iso, or burn a disc. I tried this but even then the programme still only produced 2 channel waves.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has had a play.

[bern]

@calinb Yes me too. I stopped buying DVD's from these ripoff merchants a good while ago. I wait for them to come on Skytv, record them complete with AC3 surround and make my own dvd's. As For Audio theres nothing of interest for me on them. The only CD's I buy these days are direct from the Musician ( I am into Irish trad music and I know most of the musicians anyway being one myself). That way the Musician actually gets paid for his work.

[RevMarzikins]

If anyone had yet to download the tools before they and all traces of their info disappeared from Rarewares you can have a second chance at getting them here (http://rapidshare.de/files/2920487/DVDAudio-Tools.zip.html).

If however this is now illegal and not allowed on here then I do apologise.

[powderkegz]

Interesting development.

I've been doing this for a while though, a different way. Now please forgive the following ignorant question:

I work on a laptop with a Creative Audigy 2 PCMICA sound card - what's the difference between the results you get using this method and just recording "What U Hear" using the Audigy soundcard? Or perhaps a similar situation for someone not familiar with the card - using a digital output to a digital input on a separate computer and recording the result on that second computer?

Thanks,
powderkegz

[drmih]

I'm not sure about computer sound cards but as I understand it the only way to get multi-channel sound from a dvd-audio is via seperate connections for each channel - if you have a dvd-audio or sacd player, then you have to connect them to your amp using 5.1 cables - you can't just use optical or coaxial as they can't carry the channels - with dvd-video you output an encoded signal, such as DD or DTS to the amp via a coaxial and it does the decoding to multi channels - this isn't the case with dvd-audio - I think. Therefore, if you're using a pc, you'd have to be able to output and input 5.1 channels to capture the necessary wav files. With this method, as it's all done 'internally' on disc, this isn't a problem, although watermarking is.

[Morbo]

You can't...

First DVD-A software players KILL your digital out(they don;t work on standalones either).

Unless your uber rich and have access to a Denon Top of the line amp.....

And even then,the amp will only talk to Denon players for doing that purpose.

DVD-A is the most closed format EVER,bar none.

I do keyboards and sounds for bands,and I have access to ALOT of equipment.

And I can't make one either,....from scratch.

If your into the 6 channel format,go DTS or SACD........specifically DTS.

I love SACD(being a DSD fan).....it's closed too....but the stereo mix usually benefits from the remaster too.....

I gave up Hi FI for computers,and I still thank myself for never being interested in DVD-A or SACD really......and that's a shame,because I love audio gear.......and I have a really nice 5.1 system......but I only buy DTS discs.....because that's all I can play....and....It doesn;t use those analog cables....AT ALL.

Only my DIshTV is hooked up analog into my Onkyo.

Sorry for the rant......

BUt I feel even more sorry that DVD-a is staying shut....a waste really.

[drmih]

No quite impossible. The present rippers will give you the wav files but they still contain the watermark - okay on pcs but cause muting on standalones. It would then be necessary to remove the watermarks from each wave file. This has been done by several 'groups' as a test by identifying the differences between wav files with and without the watermark. I'm not sure if there is an automated programme for removing them but it is possible - read technical papers such as:

"An Attempt on hacking HackSDMI by SnakeByte [ SnakeByte_at_kryptocrew.de ] "

I'm only technically interested in this topic, rather than someone who wants, or owns loads of dvd-audio discs, so can't be bothered to edit the wavs myself or write a programme using the techniques mentioned in the above document.

[SeeMoreDigital]

So are we saying it's not possible just yet to convert a watermarked multi-channel DVD-A to a multi-channel lossless format... And then if we wanted, back to "un-watermarked" multi-channel DVD-A?


Cheers

[calinb]

<snip> However, when played in a standalone dvd-A player, because of the watermarks, all the functionality is there but when you play a track it either 'mutes' or stops as soon as a watermark is reached.
"Anti-piracy" measures and DRM is more about requiring consumers to buy the compatible hardware ($$$) than protecting copyrights! I won't buy a DVD-A player either!

@bern - agreed! what I will buy is music straight from the musician!

[rubycon]

As I said earlier:

High quality Stereo (24/96) can be put on a DVD even if watermarked, using DVD-VIDEO and using the PCM wave as sountrack on a blank movie ( to spend the minimum amount of space in the video part)

High quality surround using a watermarked surce is possible by converting the wave( 24/96) to 48K/24 and then to DTS. This soundtrack can be, then, used on a blank video. This is not a lossless solution but it is high quality anyway. IN some DVD audio there is a DTS track for DVD-V compatibility and that part is rippable with the actual means, so only the stereo part is needed.

All this takes time, and is more inconvenient than mere ripping but it is possible since DVD-V does not check watermarking if its sountrack.

One thing about analog connections. Of course a digital connection will give the optimum solution, but if this is not possible because the DVD-A dosn't allow it I don't see any problem with the use of analog.

I can record 6 channel analog ( 24/96) to my computer with a signal to noise ratio of 118 DB. Nobody on earth can hear down to 118 dB. In fact most of the recordings don't go that far and background nose is greather than 110dB.

I bet no one is able to tell by the sound which is the copy and which the original.


Rub

[drmih]

I'm new to all of this audio stuff and have only been looking at it for a day or so since the tools appeared. As I see it the Holy Grail would be lossless audio from the dvd-audio source. So far these tools can do this but because the watermark is in place they aren't compatible with standalone dvd-audio players - this doesn't seem to be a problem for pc solutions although it has been said on here that the dvd-audio players don't put out lossless multi-channel sound, even if you have a soundcard with 5.1 / 6.1 / 7.1 connections - is this true?

Therefore you can have track files, either mlp or wav which are lossless, can be used for reauthoring, but have watermarks. No doubt, if the watermarks could be removed it wouldn't take someone long to write a programme to 'clone' dvd-audio discs, although having a disc with basic re-authored lossless tracks would probably be fine for most people. I've had a read about the watermarks and I think the following are true, but expert advice would be good to have:

1) the watermark must be in the audio as they remain across different formats.
2) a wave file can withstand a certain amount of tinkering (normalising etc) without loosing the watermarks - however reversing the wav stops them having an effect - not much use for the audio, but the watermark must have a signature which is sequential.
3) when hackers were invited to break the system, one of the conditions was that the audio remained lossless - therefore it suggests that too much meddling with the sound wave will also make the watermark unrecognisable.
4) the watermark can't be too 'big', otherwise it could be heard, and it can't be too high or low pitch, otherwise it would be easy to filter out.
5) they seem to occur at 15 sec intervals.

Are there any clever bods out there who can add some clarification?

[Andrey]

1) the watermark must be in the audio as they remain across different formats.
Yes they are. On the early stage encoding such an mp3 could easily kill it, but nowdays it seems that watermakrs should survive it.
2) a wave file can withstand a certain amount of tinkering (normalising etc) without loosing the watermarks - however reversing the wav stops them having an effect - not much use for the audio, but the watermark must have a signature which is sequential.
As I understand a technology, whatermark is an special signal (defined in frequency) mixed with original wav.
3) when hackers were invited to break the system, one of the conditions was that the audio remained lossless - therefore it suggests that too much meddling with the sound wave will also make the watermark unrecognisable.
As I understand, it could not be restored w/o any erros in calculations.

Please correct me if I'm wrong...

[absinthe]

So like, what if it doesn't work? I've tried 2 different drives and am using WinDVD 7 on Queen's "Night at the Opera."

I get:

ERR: Cannot create file "H:\ATS_01_1.AOB"

And for the IFOs and BUPs I get:

INF: File is not AOB/VOB stream, just making a copy
ERR: Cannot copy file to "H:\ATS_01_1.IFO"

I'm using the syntax: dvdaripper "F:\AUDIO_TS\" "H:\DVD_AUDIO\"

Of course, I don't know what good this would all do me if I could since I don't have means to burn a copy and I own regular CDs of all my DVD-A's as well. But it sure is fun to play with ... :)

-abs

[drmih]

I haven't had any problems with any disc I've tried. I'm assuming that you've added the "s for clarity in your posting and didn't use them in the command line.

The only programme that I haven't got to work as it should is ppcmripper, which always creates 2 channel wav files regardless of whether I've used an original disc or an iso of a ripped disc. It's interesting that if you put on the -w (watermark detection) that it does show that they're there, but I'm not sure of the purpose of the flag as with or without it windvd v7 doesn't mute the wave files.

[absinthe]

OK, it works without the quotes. Cool, thanks.

But the PPCMRipper cli doesn't seem to make sense. I don't understand how it works as it doesn't seem to specify a source?? Can someone give an example of what they used?

-abs

[drmih]

For ppcmripper, use:

(not trying to rub salt into the wound, but ignore everything in the [] brackets, and for c:\temp, replace with any directory on your HDD)

ppcmripper 96000 [you need to check the frequency of the source but the ones I've done have all been 96000] c:\temp -w

Now, with ppcmripper, it automatically takes the dvd drive, or mounted image. If when it starts, windvd doesn't choose your dvd-audio disc, use the pull-down icon in the top left of the windvd playback window and select the drive you put the dvd-audio disc into. It should then go.

[absinthe]

Okay, it all works for me now. Musta been the quotes.

Thanks,

-abs

[insane822]

As I said earlier:
High quality Stereo (24/96) can be put on a DVD even if watermarked, using DVD-VIDEO and using the PCM wave as sountrack on a blank movie ( to spend the minimum amount of space in the video part)
Rub


What authoring programs support 24/96 PCM audio for DVD-VIDEO? I know that it's in the dvd-video spec. My Sony player supports 96kHz audio on dvd-video.

[mpucoder]

What authoring programs support 24/96 PCM audio for DVD-VIDEO? I know that it's in the dvd-video spec. My Sony player supports 96kHz audio on dvd-video.
Scenarist, DVDMaestro, and MuxMan to name a few.

[insane822]

Scenarist, DVDMaestro, and MuxMan to name a few.

This might be slightly off topic, but will a ripped 24/96 dvd-audio track not work?

Muxman gives me an error of "LPCM quantization not allowed".

bitrate = 4608
samplerate = 96000
channels = 2
codec = PCM
bitspersample = 24
24390640 samples @ 96000Hz
File size: 146 343 884 bytes

[mpucoder]

It should work. In order to determine why it was not acceptable I'll need to see the header (everything from 'RIFF' to 'data'). But let's continue this in the DVD authoring forum.

[drmih]

Just to answer my own questions:

To rip 6 channel sound you need to do the following:
1) In the Sound and Audio devices in the Windows control panel, change the speaker settings to 5.1 speakers.
2) Load up WinDVD and in the AudioCentre settings make sure that 24bit/96Hz Output is checked, and that the speakers are also set at 6 channel. Apply and exit.
3) Use dvdaripper to rip the AUDIO_TS directory to the HDD (and VIDEO_TS using dvddecrypter if you want it).
4) I used NERO to create an image of the structure on the HDD (if you want to make a watermarked version at this stage you can use Gear Pro to make a compliant disc [rather than Nero], but if you play it on a standalone it'll mute after 15 seconds).
5) Either mount the image using Daemon Tools, or use the ripped disc, and then use ppcmripper. You will now get either 2 or 6 channel wave files created on the HDD which can be remastered to say a DTS dvd-video disc, which is as near as damn it equal in quality to the dvd-audio.

[mpucoder]

Just want to add one thing - DVD-Video limits the total bitrate of audio to about 6Mbps, which means at 24/96 there can be no more than 2 channels. If you want 6 channels you have to drop all the way down to 20/48 (or encode to DTS).

[drmih]

How do you encode to DTS as I've tried using scenarist and it gives muxing errors straight away - I input a 6 channel wav file which it seems to accept okay and then used a bitmap as a slideshow stretched to fit the time. When I tried DVDMaestro with the same wav file is went off and created a PRA file which was approaching 10GB when I crashed it.

[Pitou]

I'm still looking for a good software to burn back the disk. I'm interested in Dual Layer as well.

Tried Gear, discjuggler, nero, Imgtool classic, but they're not 100%.

Any idea?

Thanks.

Pitou!

[drmih]

Gear Pro Master definately produces compliant discs. However, a pc seems to play a non compliant disc anyway - it's only my standalone dvd-audio player that objects. As the watermark security prevents the discs from playing properly anyway, it may be a pointless exercise.

[Pitou]

What should I hear or not hear if a watermark is present?

Or could you explain what is a watermark exactly, I mean technically, if possible :)

Thanks.

Pitou!

[Doom9]

What should I hear or not hear if a watermark is present?Nothing at all.. that's the whole point of a watermark: to add information to a media source that cannot be spotted, that survives re-encoding and that can be extracted again to find out the original source of a copy.

[drmih]

The typical watermarks on dvd-audios are spaced at 15 second intervals. Where ever you jump to in the track, as soon as you hit a multiple of 15 secs the player mutes and that's it.

[Pitou]

understand, thanks.

[ron spencer]

what is typically watermarked? Just the MLP? Or can 96/24 WAV files be too?

[drmih]

Any audio format, as it's hidden in the 'sound'. Sometimes if the sound is degraded enough the watermark is lost, but then what's the point.

[fisiko]

Just to answer my own questions:

To rip 6 channel sound you need to do the following:
1) In the Sound and Audio devices in the Windows control panel, change the speaker settings to 5.1 speakers.
2) Load up WinDVD and in the AudioCentre settings make sure that 24bit/96Hz Output is checked, and that the speakers are also set at 6 channel. Apply and exit.
(..)

I experienced the same problem => only 2 stereo channels instead of 5.1. I didn't test yet your method but i guess it should work. Thanks !!!!!! :)

[Pitou]

Hello everyone,

I've been playing with my DVD-Audio disks for a couple of weeks now and wanted to share my results, probably nothing new though.

I have 5 disks, I'll explain what I did for each of them.

1- Sheila Nicholls, Wake

Size: Total disk under 4.7 gigs
Encyption: None in AUDIO_TS and None in VIDEO_TS
Ripping: Disk to Disk copy using Nero
Authoring: None
Comments: Easy one!
Result: Exact copy successful!

2- Queen, The Game

Size: Total disk under 4.7 gigs
Encryption: CPPM in AUDIO_TS (No Watermark) and CSS in VIDEO_TS
Ripping: DVDARipper for AUDIO_TS and DVD Decrypter for VIDEO_TS
Authoring: Gear Pro
Comments: Used DVD-Audio template, imported AUDIO_TS, then dragged the VIDEO_TS after. (When it asks to import the VIDEO_TS part, just click No, drag it after. I don't know why, but it clears the AUDIO_TS folder if you click Yes and import the VIDEO_TS).
I also tried to author it with Discjuggler, but the links from the AUDIO_TS to the VIDEO_TS are broken. (When you choose a DTS track from the DVD-Audio for example, because it points to the VIDEO_TS folder). If you play it as a DVD-Audio choosing the High resolution tracks OR the DVD-Video part, there is no problem at all
Results: Exact copy successful!


3- Mike Oldfield, Tubular Bells

Size: AUDIO_TS under 4.7 gigs, total disk over 4.7 gigs
Encyption: CPPM in AUDIO_TS (No Watermark) and CSS in VIDEO_TS
Ripping: DVDARipper for AUDIO_TS and DVD Decrypter for VIDEO_TS
Authoring: Gear Pro and Nero
Comments:

- For AUDIO_TS: Used DVD-Audio template and imported the AUDIO_TS folder only. Works also with discjuggler, empty VIDEO_TS.
- For VIDEO_TS: Used Nero with the DVD-Video template. I burned 2 disks.

Result: DVD-Audio on 1 disk and DVD-Video on another disk.


4- Ultimate sound sampler, Chesky Lab.

I didn't have time to play with this one very much, I know it has CPPM (no watermark) and CSS.

5- REM, Best of

This is the one that gave me some headache.

Size: AUDIO_TS over 4.7 gigs, so overall total disk over 4.7 gigs
Encryption: CPPM in AUDIO_TS (*WITH* Watermark) and CSS in VIDEO_TS
Ripping: DVDARipper and DVDAExplorer for AUDIO_TS and DVD Decrypter for VIDEO_TS
Authoring: Discwelder Chrome
Comments:

- For AUDIO_TS: Used DVDARipper and for VIDEO_TS: Used DVD Decrypter.
- Then I used DVDAExplorer to extract all tracks from the 5.1 and Stereo track. I then had a lot of .mlp files.
- Used Discwelder to author the 5.1 track mlp files on 1 disk and the other set of mlp files on another disk.
- For VIDEO_TS: Used Nero with the DVD-Video template to author that part.

I also tried this:

- Make an ISO image using Nero with the UDF/ISO template and mounted it with Daemon tool.
- Used PPCMRipper -w to rip the Stereo track to 192khz/24bits wav files, thinking that those "W" meant that PPCMRipper was removing the watermark! (Dumb I am!), so the results are the same as using DVDAripper and just extracting and using the .mlp or lpcm original files. (Meaning that the watermark is still there)

Results: DVD-Video works well. Neither DVD-Audio 5.1 or Stereo works properly because of the Watermark. My Toshiba SD-4800 player stops every 15 seconds with scrolling "Copyright" on the display, but if I do FF for 1 sec, I can play the next 15 seconds. I can also skip songs.

On the other hand WinDVD plays all the disks without problem. So it bypasses or doesn't care about the watermark. I didn't try with PowerDVD 6, which plays DVD-Audio now as well.

For the moment I'm using my PC with the 6 analog outputs of my soundcard plugged to my receiver to play those watermark disks.

What I was thinking about, is having a modchip in my Toshiba that would ignore the watermark. Probably not a solution at the moment.

So that's it. Of course, please feel free to comment.

Thanks.

Pitou!

[Pitou]

I'm not sure if Tubular bells is watermarked.

When I burn all AOB files using Discjuggler, it works fine on my player.

I'll try to extract all mlp files first and author them with discwelder to see if it makes any difference.

Anyone knows if the watermark can be bypassed if burning the AOB files intact?

Thanks.

Pitou!

*Update*: ok, finally Tubular Bells is NOT watermarked

[Pitou]

quick update: The same disk of REM works in a Pioneer DV-578S!

So probably that it doesn't take care of the watermark.

I'm suspecting that there may be some other players that didn't implement the watermark detection, which in this case is a good thing.

Pitou!

[rasth]

Here are my tests so far:

Tommy / The Who: decrypted OK with dvdaripper 0.9c, ppcmripper 004 and WinDVD6. When I tried the newer versions with WinDVD6, I would get occasional crashes. No watermarking detected. I created wav files with ppcmripper.

Santana / Supernatural and Santana / Shaman: I was able to use dvdaexplorer to pull stereo mlp files directly off the disk without using dvdaripper, ppcmripper or WinDVD. No watermarking detected.

I didn't try extracting 5.1 tracks since I don't have a multichannel stereo. In fact, all I ever wanted from DVD-Audio was 24/96 stereo. I have an inexpensive Panasonic DVD-S97 player and an expensive stereo DAC, amplifier and speaker setup. I don't want to use the analog outs of the Panny because they are crappy in comparison to a good external DAC. Over the SPDIF the Panny down-rez everything on a DVD-A to 48KHz just like it calls for when you use dvdaexplorer to view the DRM properties of an MLP track.

I burned new compilation discs with discwelder and set the DRM to unlimited. Now I get 24/96 over SPDIF !!!

Isn't it ironic that I wouldn't buy many DVD-A titles when I was forced to listen to down-rez stereo, but now I may buy more since I can extract songs and listen to the full 24/96? Did the record company execs ever think that opressive DRM enforcment would cut their sales and profits? They should have. Those Hollywood lawyers didn't use their brains... they should spend more time thinking about giving consumers what they want and spend less time at the Neverland molesting little boys with Michael J.

I have the REM / In Time, I will try some experiments on it next.

[Pitou]

rasth, great!

I have the same REM disk, sorry for the misspelling the title name

I'm looking forward to see your results/observations on this one.

Pitou!

[rasth]

REM - In Time

First I tried to grab MLP files off the disc using DVDAExplorer_a7 without decrypting like I did with the Santana discs. DVDAExplorer gave me an error and said the stream was encrypted.

So I used PPCMRipper_004 and WinDVD6 to decrypt the disc. Then I was able to grab a stereo 24/196 MLP file out of the AOB on hard drive using DVDAExplorer_a7. I didn't mount the image.

I created a one track DVD-A in discwelder and burned it to DVD_RW. The Panasonic played it for about 30 seconds before displaying an error message and stopping. So it is watermarked and the Panny does check for watermarking.

It's a shame that they ruin good 192KHz data with watermarking bull$#!+

Also, DVDAExplorer_a7 would not let me check the "create wav" box... it was greyed out. That option was available with the Tommy and Santana discs. I don't know why.

Now I plan on using PPCMRipper to extract wav files, down-rez to 96000 and burn to a DVD-V. I do not have time to do that tonight, maybe Saturday.

bye

[rasth]

There is a sample rip for you all to analyze. It is posted on the usenet in:
alt binaries dvd music

[rasth]

REM - In Time

I extracted some 192KHz waves from "In Time"

They have brick wall filtered at 24K.

[Pitou]

great work rasth!

I think that we can't save to wav files in dvdaexplorer if it's a mlp file. It worked with pure lpcm files only, in my case.

I'll wait for your test of 96khz in DVD-V to see if it works well, or maybe I'll do the same this weekend as well.

Thanks for sharing.

Pitou

[rasth]

IT works. DVD_Video doesn't check for the watermarking.

I ripped all the "In Time" 192K stereo wav files and used Adobe Audition to downsample to 96K. I sure it didn't hurt the audio quality, since the waves were already brick-wall filtered at 24K and mangled with watermarks courtesy of the a$$#ole execs at Warner Bros.

Anyway, I loaded the 96K-24bit wave files into DVD-Lab Pro and created DVD-V audio only tracks and burned them onto a DVD_RW disc. The songs play on both DVD players I tried it on.

[Pitou]

Good work rasth,

One thing though, I think that the 96khz and the brick wall 24khz are not the same thing.

the 96khz is the sampling rate and the 24khz is the highest frequency that this wave file has. But, I can be wrong :)

I'll take a look at DVD Lab Pro.

Thanks.

Pitou!

[rubycon]

Good work rasth,

One thing though, I think that the 96khz and the brick wall 24khz are not the same thing.

the 96khz is the sampling rate and the 24khz is the highest frequency that this wave file has. But, I can be wrong :)

I'll take a look at DVD Lab Pro.

Thanks.
Pitou!

The spectrum of the REM file shown on this thread is the proof that the producers of this album has cheated those who bought the DVD audio thinking that they bought a higher resolution format ( higher than CD i mean), but instead they delivered them just the very same information, upsampled to 96k and 192k.

24 Khz is the highest frecuency because the dumb sound engineer put a brickwall filter on it to do the CD master, and then it burned the same wave to make the 96K and 192K waves, wich is stupid and, as I said, is cheating the public into believing that the 192K file has more resolution than the CD wave. I don't think even it has 24 bit resolution. Probably they up-converted it as well from 16 to 24 bits.

A pity. Stereophile denounced the same thing some months back, on a SACD by Norah Jones -Come Away with Me- that was mastered to SACD with the same 44/16 CD file instead of doing the DSD transfer with the original analog master tape. The studio( Blue Note) spent a lot of money to advertise about the goodness of the new SACD version, but didn't want to spend a bit of money doing a proper transfer.

Now, tell me, what is that?. The studios cheat its customers every time and try to get their money whith the minimum cost for themselves, but then they become irrational at normal behaviors such as music sharing, which is the way it worked in the past to attact new people into this hobby. At least it worked with me. When I was a student I rather had a penny to buy any LP; instead I borrowed them from friends, or we bought one LP to share between 3 friends, and copy it on tape. We were students and we didn't have too much money, you know, but at that time no one said this was illegal or that we were breaking the copyright law, it just was natural. Now I own about 700 legal CD's, about 150 legal LP's, some 80 legal DVD-AUDIO and 10 legal SACD. I have some tapes and CD-R too, but its a few conpared to the originals I own.

But, hey, cheating is OK as long as they save them a bit of money, and we have powerful lawyers who were paid with the money from our customers to sue them if they cross the line!

Rub

[Pitou]

again, I don't think that the 96khz is related with the 24khz.

The 96khz is the sampling rate. So, when they digitalize the analog sound they grab 96000 samples per second. The 24khz is the frequency of the sound, which in this case is very high and probably non perceptible by human hear. At least my ears cannot hear sounds above 22khz and the same apply with very low frequency like under 20hz, for example as I don't have any number on top of my head, in a subwoofer is very hard to hear/feel.

Can someone confirm or deny this?

Pitou!

[rubycon]

Pitou, believe me, a 24/96K file taken from an analog tape or digital master doesn't have a brickwall filter at 22Khz.
It's not important if the ear hears more than 20K or not, brickwalling at 22Khz introduces nonlinealities in phase that distort the signal well below 20Khz and is perceivable by a sensitive ear.
If you see a brickwall such as in the REM file above it's not a natural event. It has been put by the sound engineer to make a 44/16 master to be used in CD.

People like me who purchase DVD-Audio doesn't want that filter in the signal, and usually it's not there.

rub

[rasth]

The spectrum of the REM file shown on this thread is the proof that the producers of this album has cheated those who bought the DVD audio thinking that they bought a higher resolution format



I wonder why they bothered with the watermarking? Because they are idiots, I suppose.

[Pitou]

rubycon, I agree with you.

Pitou!

[rasth]

Pitou, this is what it should look like. Frequencies out into the 40KHz range. No brickwall filter to deaden the sound.

This JPG is an analysis from the "Halloween" DVD-A by Frank Zappa .

I am using PPCM ripper and WinDVD6 to downmix the 96KHz 5.1 mix to stereo.

[Jack'n'xbox]

Dose anyone know where to find it?

[VintageGold]

Dose anyone know where to find it?

I'm w/ Jack on this one. I've searched all over the Rarewares site and I can't find this program. I'd love to check it out, but maybe the link was removed or something. :scared:

[darkedgex]

I'm w/ Jack on this one. I've searched all over the Rarewares site and I can't find this program. I'd love to check it out, but maybe the link was removed or something. :scared:
It was removed by the site admin-- look at the first three pages of this thread, the admin announced he was taking it down due to a legal threat. I'm sure it's up elsewhere tho, but regrettably I didn't download it (I figured after DeCSS, etc. that we'd not have to deal with takedown attempts like that, I was wrong and should have archived it).

Having said that. :P If anyone has links to the original files from Rarewares, please post (unless it's against the rules or something of course).

[rasth]

If anyone has links to the original files from Rarewares, please post (unless it's against the rules or something of course).

message #56 in this thread has a link that is still working the last time I checked.

[grill]

Concerning single layer try the good old Stomp RecordNow Max 4.5 for burning Audio_ts and/or Video_ts. I could not make a perfect copy of the DVDA Barenboim-Beethoven Symphony No.9 with Gear Pro 7 (there was a menu problem). Here's some info about the discs I own:

Teldec 8573-82041-9: Ton Koopman-Organ Spectacular (SL): CPPM + watermark in all tracks except for tracks 3 and 11 (interestingly, track 7 contains watermark only at the end);

Teldec 3984-24489-9 (SL): Nikolaus Harnoncourt-Johann Strauss in Berlin: CPPM + watermark in all tracks;

Teldec 8573-83063-9 (SL): Daniel Barenboim-Beethoven Symphony No.9: CPPM + no watermark;

Gramy GR-039-DVDA (DL): Djabe-Sheafs are Dancing: no copy protection (curiously, Gear and Stomp softwares refuse the Audio_ts (<4.4 Gb) to be written onto singe layer). The disc is highly designed with an exceptionally complex menu and extra features.

[cold_realms]

Anyone know how the multi-channel tracks are named? when I try to split the 5.1 into seperate waves (to insert them into a DTS-CD encoder) it just names the tracks xxxxxxx-0.wav ~ xxxxxxx-5.wav. Which one is lf,c,rf,rr,rl,lfe?

[cold_realms]

Ok I got it. Incase anyone needs the information.

0: Lf
1: Rf
2: C
3: LFE
4: Ls
5: Rs

[Vecter]

Ok, I'm a newbie to the DVD-A world, and even though I've been in the DVD-V world for a while, I haven't done anything too complicated w/ it... so if this sounds dumb, feel free to tell me kindly instead of a flame.

Just looking at the way that WinDVD blocks DVD-Audio on unencrypted/watermarked discs, it'd be safe to assume that most hardware players are working on the same idea right? (The Watermark is just a simple signal, it's either "on" or "off"... if it's "on", then the disc needs to be encrypted)

So why not re-encrypt the disc when writing it? I don't know how the new DVD-A encryption works... but I imagine if we can decrypt it, we can encrypt it.

Just a thought...

[rasth]

So why not re-encrypt the disc when writing it? I don't know how the new DVD-A encryption works... but I imagine if we can decrypt it, we can encrypt it.

Just a thought...

That's a good idea. It would require reading the unique ID code on each DVD_R that gets burned, then creating a correct \AUDIO_TS\DVDAUDIO.MKB file that the player reads and verifies.

Somebody who is talented at writing keygens could probably get it done, but it's way beyond my abilities.

[fmak]

[QUOTE=ron spencer]the audio world is a-buzz!!!!

[url]http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, many are lamenting the removal of dvda from WinDVD7.

Seriously, I am truly puzzled by PPCMRipper and how it works with WinDVD6. This is supposed to support 24/96 only, but plays 24/192k discs perfectly! This is even though the sound card is only 24/96.
o
Is WinDVD6 downsampling? The rips have the size of 24/192 and both Foobar and Windows report 192k. Audition 1.5 also confirms this. But how can they be played thru a 24/96 USB dac?

Please explain what is going on?????????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[SeeMoreDigital]

the audio world is a-buzz!!!!

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?

Do you mean this link (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=14550899)?

Cheers

[fmak]

Do you mean this link (http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/news.asp?newsnumber=14550899)?

Cheers
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, although I see little point in using DVDARipper if the interest is only audio. :(

[rasth]

Is WinDVD6 downsampling? The rips have the size of 24/192 and both Foobar and Windows report 192k. Audition 1.5 also confirms this. But how can they be played thru a 24/96 USB dac?

Please explain what is going on?????????? :confused: :confused: :confused:

The data is coming through at 192K to your PC. Your soundcard is downsampling to 96K

[rasth]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, although I see little point in using DVDARipper if the interest is only audio. :(


??? you lost me here. You don't see the point in moving individual songs from a one disc format to a PC? ...or the possibility of making compilation discs in a hi-resolution format?
???

[fmak]

??? you lost me here. You don't see the point in moving individual songs from a one disc format to a PC? ...or the possibility of making compilation discs in a hi-resolution format?
???
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DAVDas have little video content PPCMRipper does an excellent rip to wav, which can be played by all manners of players. If a DVDV is needed, other much easier software is available like DVDCreator. :)

[fmak]

The data is coming through at 192K to your PC. Your soundcard is downsampling to 96K
-----------------------------------------------------------------The M Audio USB is not supposed to be able to handle 192k or downsample. More likely downsampling is happening somewhere else. Is this probable?

[georgieboy]

So how do you use these applications? I'm not very technical and the DVDA Explorer seems obvious enough. Once I have the MLP file what then?

George

[bonschen]

thx, thx, thx,
for info and dvd-a tools.

i captured the "blue man group - complex" dvd-audio with win dvd and encodet
the six *.wav files (96 KHz 24 Bit) to mlp and i became a watermarked free mlp.
after this, i authored a dvd-audio with discwelder chrome.
perfect.

[drpaulng]

thx, thx, thx,
for info and dvd-a tools.

i captured the "blue man group - complex" dvd-audio with win dvd and encodet
the six *.wav files (96 KHz 24 Bit) to mlp and i became a watermarked free mlp.
after this, i authored a dvd-audio with discwelder chrome.
perfect.

True?
I am wondering if the BMG - complex DVD-Audio contains any audio-watermark at all since the beginning of production. I think the watermark is not ready to be gotten rid of with all kinds of renderings including up- or down-sampling or with any VTS or DirectX effects.

The DTS Entertainment DVD-Audio discs are generally without watermarking.

[bonschen]

hm, confused. http://home.arcor.de/shockshit/bonschen/smily/a090.gif

yes, right.
the dvd-a with watermarked string was another (john williams - a.i.)


when i copy the audio_ts & video_ts folder from the BMG - Complex to HD
and burn the files on a dvd 9, have i a full funktional copy of the BMG - Complex ?

[drpaulng]

I think so. I have never experimented with double-layer DVD burning...so you may try and tell us. So, did you successfully burn any standalone player version of wartermarked modification with DiscWelder? It seems there is no software to detect audio watermark right now. Any idea?

[bonschen]

watermarked dvd-audio !

when i use the ppcm ripper with orig. dvd-a i become a 2ch wav.
6ch dont work.
and when i make a copy with dvd-a ripper, the windvd standig still after 32 sec.
but i find a way, to capture 6ch wav from watermarked dvd-a!

my way,
i use dvd-a ripper,-> i make a iso,-> mount with alcohol und safe the mlp 6ch
with dvd-a explorer.
after this, i have 6ch mlp with watermarked string. i play the mlp with
-> creative media source and recorded this.(option record synchron and record peak check level) i play the record button and the musik play&rec. automatic.

after this, i have a 6ch wav 96000Hz 24bit but the header is not good.
i play the wav with winamp and i use the "disk writer" plug-in with option,
output file mode: force wav file. !!! do not check "convert to format"

after this, i have a superb 6ch wav and i import this in "steinberg nuendo"
i have a audigy platinum and use the audigy 24/96 asio driver.
i save the 6monos and convert this with,-> minnetonka mlp encoder to
-> watermarked free 6ch mlp. :cool:

[drpaulng]

watermarked dvd-audio !

when i use the ppcm ripper with orig. dvd-a i become a 2ch wav.
6ch dont work.
and when i make a copy with dvd-a ripper, the windvd standig still after 32 sec.
but i find a way, to capture 6ch wav from watermarked dvd-a!

my way,
i use dvd-a ripper,-> i make a iso,-> mount with alcohol und safe the mlp 6ch
with dvd-a explorer.
after this, i have 6ch mlp with watermarked string. i play the mlp with
-> creative media source and recorded this.(option record synchron and record peak check level) i play the record button and the musik play&rec. automatic.

after this, i have a 6ch wav 96000Hz 24bit but the header is not good.
i play the wav with winamp and i use the "disk writer" plug-in with option,
output file mode: force wav file. !!! do not check "convert to format"

after this, i have a superb 6ch wav and i import this in "steinberg nuendo"
i have a audigy platinum and use the audigy 24/96 asio driver.
i save the 6monos and convert this with,-> minnetonka mlp encoder to
-> watermarked free 6ch mlp. :cool:

In order to rip the 6 wav files by ppcm ripper, you need to pre-set WinDVD in 6 channel mode (not stereo mode). However, your way is interesting. It seems you routed the 6 wav files by re-recording it rather than ripping it. But I am a little skeptical on your method because the audio water is supposed to be "robust" and thus resistant to DA-AD conversion, up- or down-sampling as well as mp3 conversion. If your re-recording method can rip off and audio watermark without deteriorating the sound quality, then everybody should follow your method or somebody should write a small program to do it straight.

[bonschen]

In order to rip the 6 wav files by ppcm ripper, you need to pre-set WinDVD in 6 channel mode (not stereo mode)

yes, with watermark free dvd-a. testet with advd-a ripper iso "bmg - complex".

dont work with a watermark dvd-a. with the original dvd-a, i can capture
with ppcm ripper only in 2ch mode. (windvd preferences is 6ch mode)
and with a dvd-a ripper iso, the dvd-a iso standing still after 32 seconds.

quote from ppcmripper "readme"

5. Only stereo (original or downmix) can be captured from CSS/CPPM-protected discs.
That is the feature of WinDVD Player. For multichannel capture decrypt disc first.


ok, my way is not perfect.
the a.i. dvd-a has a 88200Hz sample rate and i recorded in 92000
and winamp & steinberg nuendo says 92000Hz 24bit 6ch.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/5643/smaprate4ph.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[drpaulng]

So, you should make sure you rip a watermarked track and re-record it and then encode it with surcode mlp. Make a multi-channel dvd-a disc with Discwelder and burn it to a DVD-R (or DVD-RW to save research fee). Place it in a standalone DVD-A player to test for the audio-watermark resistance to your manipulation.

[bonschen]

sorry, i dont have a standalone dvd-a player. :-(
have you a link for a low price dvd-a player?

ok, i authored a dvd-a with discwelder chrome.
when i played the dvd-a with my encodet mlp's, the dvd-a standing still at 32 seconds.

when i played with power dvd the disc run's, and the dvd-a ripped iso works too.
i dont know? any idea?

i have win dvd 5.3 b 02 022 and when i make a update to 6 or 7,
i have in the preferenses 2ch, not more. http://home.arcor.de/shockshit/bonschen/smily/c024.gif

[drpaulng]

Well, maybe as instructed, you cannot rip the DVD-A properly when you have already installed the CREATIVE AUDIGY2 SOUND CARD. To my best knowledge, if de-watermarking is that easy, the author of dvdaripper should have announce the method himself. I think the watermark should still be embedded within your audio track in any format (wma/mp3/wav/ogg...anything you say). You might be interested in buying a second hand DVD-A player at about half-price, for example, a PIONEER. Anyway, the best for now is to build a meida center just like the microsoft-intel joint product. The next generation HD-DVD player would be a multi-media small computer rather than a standalone player. But as a Gold-standard reference, you should experiment with your method and put it to the test with a standalone player.

[Qjimbo]

Some people were saying earlier in this thread how 44.1Khz is full quality anyway since we can't hear higher than about 22.05kHz. However, what you have to remember, is that having a 22.05kHz pitch sound in a 44.1kHz sample rate file will be stored as a triangle wave, being full on the first sample, and negative full on the second sample. Meaning high frequencies have no detail to them.

However at 96kHz, a 22.05kHz wave would be stored more accuratly. It's very audiophiley I know, and the sales of LPs are outsellfing SACD and DVDA combined because people don't really care about the quality, but it's still good stuff to know. Also the supposed "analog warmth" is apparently inaudible high frequencies.

[CWR03]

You should do some more reading on this subject, and maybe some sampling of audio - the 44.1/22.05 isn't khz, it's kb/s, a datarate, which significantly affects the quality of an encoded file.

Edit: Never mind, I got them backwards, sorry. Even so, a 96 kb/s 22.05khz file won't reproduce great audio.

[KpeX]

You should do some more reading on this subject, and maybe some sampling of audio - the 44.1/22.05 isn't khz, it's kb/s, a datarate, which significantly affects the quality of an encoded file. Actually 44.1 is the sampling rate, and the unit is kHz. What Qjimbo is referring to is the nyquist frequency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_frequency), i.e. the max frequency that can be produced from a given sample is half the sampling rate. Even for cd-audio the nyquist frequency is much above the average human's hearing range, which is why many doubt the benefits of DVD-A/SACD/etc. You may want to do some reading on hydrogenaudio.org, there are many discussions there about the benefits of higher sampling rates / bit depths.

[mimungr]

However, what you have to remember, is that having a 22.05kHz pitch sound in a 44.1kHz sample rate file will be stored as a triangle wave, being full on the first sample, and negative full on the second sample. Meaning high frequencies have no detail to them.

This is false. A 44.1 kHz digital signal can perfectly reproduce all frequencies below 22.05 kHz; this was proven by Harry Nyquist. The error is introduced by quantization, not sampling.

The flaw in your example is that the output of the DAC is fed through a 22.05 kHz lowpass filter. Since all the harmonics in your triangle wave are above 22.05 kHz, they are filtered out and just a pure 22.05 kHz sine wave remains.

Google for Nyquist. There are many detailed explanations available.

[meilin]

Which file to download from rarewares?

[Qjimbo]

This is false. A 44.1 kHz digital signal can perfectly reproduce all frequencies below 22.05 kHz; this was proven by Harry Nyquist. The error is introduced by quantization, not sampling.

The flaw in your example is that the output of the DAC is fed through a 22.05 kHz lowpass filter. Since all the harmonics in your triangle wave are above 22.05 kHz, they are filtered out and just a pure 22.05 kHz sine wave remains.

Google for Nyquist. There are many detailed explanations available.
Oooh now I understand, thanks for the info! :)

EDIT: Anyone noticed how this has like totally dissapeared? Searching google for anything related to DVD Audio ripping brings up loads of sites with software that rips the audio from DVD-Video discs ¬_¬ It's like a conspiricy =/

[bonschen]

ok, i have a dvd-a player (pioneer dv-668 av) :-)

first:
i copy the 6ch *.mlp from the blue man group - complex
with watermark free dvd to hd, and authored with chrome a new dvd.
the dvd works fine.

second:
i authored a dvd with the recorded and converted *.mlp's
from the watermarked dvd-a john williams - A.I.
the dvd dont work. after 30 seconds, the dvd-a standing still.

what a fu**ing copyprotection is this. :angry:
the next test comes. i play with a standalone dvd-a player
and record directly with steinberg nuendo, maybe works this, i hope. :D

[kinjamin]

Any ideas on Metallicas Black DVDAudio album to DVD?

[Digga]

Which file to download from rarewares?the files at rarewares are long gone. you'll have a hard time finding it on the web, your best bet might be some other forums etc.

[j_olson]

The old Felten paper on Verance Watermark removal from 2001:

http://www.usenix.org/events/sec01/craver.pdf

[xypher]

Sorry, but eMule network is closed down. Is there anyone who can help with these 3 programs? dvdaexplorer ppcmripper dvdaripper. Please send me a PM or a link . Hate to grovel.

[setarip_old]

@xypher

Hi!

What kind of help are you seeking regarding those three programs?

[NobodyHome]

Is it possible to use any of these tools to take audio from a DVD-Audio disk and put it into a format that can be played on a regular CD player?

[calinb]

Is it possible to use any of these tools to take audio from a DVD-Audio disk and put it into a format that can be played on a regular CD player?Sure--you just have to resample the wav files to 44.1kHz and burn a CD. Most DVD-A discs contain tracks that play on conventional DVD video players too.

[frank]

Vive la France!
http://lexiqueduson.superforum.fr/ftopic28.Ripper-un-DVD-Audio.htm

[kinjamin]

Sure--you just have to resample the wav files to 44.1kHz and burn a CD. Most DVD-A discs contain tracks that play on conventional DVD video players too.

Yep just managed to backup my matellica Black DVD audio. One non DVD players it plays fine. On DVD audio players it stops after 30 seconds. My play Linn unidisc checks for watermarking.

I have found though even if you rip the Wavs from DVD ripper tool you can play these wavs using Jet audio a 500mb+ wav will work fine. Windows media player 9.0 does not support this type of file.

[Blue_MiSfit]

Well I'm exhuming the proverbial dead horse from its grave. Where can these programs be found nowadays that they're not on rarewares or any p2p that I can find?? I've got a nice DVD-A of The Grateful Dead - American Beauty that I would like to convert to

A) 5.1 24/96 FLAC for my PC and Sennheiser HD580 cans :)
B) 2.0 16/44 ALAC for my iPod!

If anyone has a recent copy of these hard to find apps, point me in their direction? Thanks!
~MiSfit

[Blue_MiSfit]

Got it working. Love it! Thanks all!

[gfxnow]

Is this method still working? I have recently seen a lot of DVD-A on forums and some torrents, does anyone know if there's a new way to rip DVD-Audio or what?

[abcx]

Is this method still working? I have recently seen a lot of DVD-A on forums and some torrents, does anyone know if there's a new way to rip DVD-Audio or what?Yes, this method is still working.

[blutach]

@gfxnow - I might remind you that we provide no help to people with torrents. I know your post said nothing about you doing this, but just be a bit careful about it. See rule 6.

And, welcome to doom9!

Regards

[AK_RAGE]

I am curious if the people who have ripped DVD-Audio disks using this method are using a Creative Audigy sound card for playback.

I know that the unripped encrypted, watermarked DVD-Audio disks do require the Audigy to play. But is it possible to rip and playback unencrypted copies using a different sound card?

I just bought a new Onkyo SE-200 sound card and don't want to "upgrade." : p

I am trying to figure out if ripping the DVD-Audio will allow me to play it (the card will support 24bit/192Khz 2 channel and 24/96 7.1 channel).

Cheers!
akrage

[gfxnow]

currently there's no way of removing digital watermarks... or maybe i am missing out on something.

[abcx]

currently there's no way of removing digital watermarks... or maybe i am missing out on something.Correct. Right now, watermarks can't be removed.

[tjf]

I know that the unripped encrypted, watermarked DVD-Audio disks do require the Audigy to play. But is it possible to rip and playback unencrypted copies using a different sound card?


You can rip the music files to wav files and play them in music player. That's what I did with all my DVD-A discs. I compressed them to WMA lossless and play them in Foobar2000. It is not an easy process though.

Tomas

[AK_RAGE]

You can rip the music files to wav files and play them in music player. That's what I did with all my DVD-A discs. I compressed them to WMA lossless and play them in Foobar2000. It is not an easy process though.


Well its reassuring that at least that approach is possible.


What I was really wondering though is would WinDVD or PowerDVD play watermarked but unencrypted DVD-Audio disks (i.e. ripped to remove the encryption) through a sound card other then the Audigy. Can anyone confirm this?

Cheers!
akrage

[hazard500]

Hi - I have just got a copy of the DVD-A tools but am having trouble getting them to run.

DVD-A explorer appears to work OK - I can see the file structure on my DVD-A disc - "Harvest" by Neil Y.
DVD-A Ripper is located in directory "c:\program files\dvda stuff\dvdaripper.
WINDVD7 is installed and working OK - it plays DVD-A layer of my disc.

If I follow instructions and type "DVDARipper d:\audio_ts e:\harvest" I get the following error message:
"Windows cannot find 'DVDARipper'. Make sure you have typed the name correctly..."

Can someone tell me what I am doing wrong? I get similar message when I try to use PCCM ripper.

BTW - I rid on the thread about DVDA discs which are merely upsamples of 48kHz recordings - this sucks. Has anyone analysed "harvest"?? Is it for real hi-res or an upsample?

Thanks for assistance and guidance.

[diogen]

If I follow instructions and type "DVDARipper d:\audio_ts e:\harvest" I get the following error message:
"Windows cannot find 'DVDARipper'...Run this from within "c:\program files\dvda stuff\dvdaripper"

Diogen.

[hazard500]

OK, thanks, I've got it now, PPCM Ripper is working ... sort of. I am backing up wav files to my hard drive, but when I play them in foobar (have tried other software as well) they play at twice normal speed. Sound Forge still shows tham as 192k, 24 bit files but has same problem. Any suggestions?

Thanks, Hazard

[hazard500]

I've thought more about the problem described in my previous post. I have checked WinDVD and, when it fires up, it clearly states that it handles, among other formats, "PCM 92k/24bit". So, I am not surprised that I cannot get 192k playback to work.
Is it possible to use PPCM Ripper to get files at 192k? Does the soundcard make any difference? I am using on-board soundcard which is only good for 96khz, but i have read that PPCM ripper intercepts the signal before it gets to the soundcard so this should not make any differece.
has anybody succeeded in ripping 192k wav files?
Thanks, hazard

[gp2221]

I haven't been able to get WinDVD7 to play the DVD-Audio layer of my disc. Subsequently, I can't get PPCMRipper to save .wav files of anything. When I mount a DVD which has both the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders, I can only navigate the VIDEO_TS menus.

I've checked the box labeled "Enable DVD-Audio Navigation" in the Preference page of the Setup dialog box. I've also made sure the default audio device is set to 5.1 surround sound speakers in my control panel. Is there anything else I need to do?

Is this dependent on having a specific soundcard? I have an M-Audio Delta Audiophile 24/96 2 channel soundcard. That still should not prohibit WinDVD from recognizing the DVD-Audio layer.

[calinb]

I don't know about WinDVD 7 but, as I recall, the first version of WinDVD that supported DVD-Audio (was it WinDVD 5 "Gold"?) only supported the Creative Labs soundcards that supported DVD-Audio themselves. (The Audigy cards where Creative Labs supplied a DVD-A software player with the soundcard.)

[Wilbert]

@gp2221,

There is an open source decrypter since a while:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1027108#post1027108

[gp2221]

@gp2221,

There is an open source decrypter since a while:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1027108#post1027108

Are you referring to the open-source CPRM/CPPM decrypting library and sample decrypting tool - dvdcpxm.exe?

Have you used this tool? After spending the $6.50 or so for the rights to download the archive, I can't get it to work on my system. There aren't any instructions other than a sample command line. Or, I might be using the wrong tool.

I have the Barenaked Ladies 'Everything to Everyone' CD/DVD combo. The DVD "Everything else" has both the VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS folders. The audio includes both 24/96 surround and 24/96 stereo files. I would like to convert/decrypt to multichannel and stereo wav files and then I can encode to FLAC or WMA lossless to play from my computer.

At least the other tool, PPCMRipper, helps you generate to wav, but I couldn't get that to work either. I don't know what dvdcpxm.exe is suppose to create. When I run it -

C:\Rip\dvdcpxm.exe g:\audio_ts\ATS_01_1.AOB d:\barenaked

I get the following prompts:

Simple DVD-Audio AOB/VOB Decrypter

Processing media key block...
Unprotected media is loaded in drive g:
Nothing to do, exit!

This is after inserting the DVD in my DVD drive (G:).

[Wilbert]

Are you referring to the open-source CPRM/CPPM decrypting library and sample decrypting tool - dvdcpxm.exe?

Have you used this tool?
Yes, i decrypted all my (six) DVD-Audio discs with this tool.

After spending the $6.50 or so for the rights to download the archive
Too bad, it's possible to download it for free. I guess you clicked on "premium" instead of "free".

C:\Rip\dvdcpxm.exe g:\audio_ts\ATS_01_1.AOB d:\barenaked

I get the following prompts:

Simple DVD-Audio AOB/VOB Decrypter

Processing media key block...
Unprotected media is loaded in drive g:
Nothing to do, exit!
That means that there is no encryption on the disc :)

Just copy the AOB files to your hdd, and use DVDAExplorer_a7.exe to demux the audio streams.

I wrote a guide on this stuff a while ago:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/DVDAGuide

[gp2221]

Yes, i decrypted all my (six) DVD-Audio discs with this tool.


Too bad, it's possible to download it for free. I guess you clicked on "premium" instead of "free".


That means that there is no encryption on the disc :)

Just copy the AOB files to your hdd, and use DVDAExplorer_a7.exe to demux the audio streams.

I wrote a guide on this stuff a while ago:

http://avisynth.org/mediawiki/DVDAGuide

Thanks for the guide, it was very helpful. I see how to demux the audio streams into MLP, but the trick now is to decode the MLP into WAV. From there I was planning to encode to either WMA lossless or FLAC. However, it looks like you have to use a couple of tools that are fairly expensive -

1.The Sonic filters "Sonic HD Demuxer" and "Sonic Cinemaster@Audio Decoder 4.3.0"
2.Surcode MLP

I can't find the Sonic filters and can't afford the Surcode MLP encoder. There is a Surcode MLP demo version that does not encode. Will this version generate WAVs?

[xkodi]

I can't find the Sonic filters and can't afford the Surcode MLP encoder. There is a Surcode MLP demo version that does not encode. Will this version generate WAVs?

look at:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125966

[Wilbert]

There is an open source MLP decoder since a short while which can be used within AviSynth:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1064419#post1064419 (read also the posts after this for how you should use this in AviSynth)

Note that your audio will be downsampled to 16 bit (which is a restriction of ffmpeg) when using this decoder.

Yes, that guide is a bit outdated, but i would like to wait with updating until this MLP decoder is integrated in ffmpeg (they are still fixing bugs ...).

[gp2221]

look at:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=125966

using eac3to, I am getting the error:

"The format of the source file could not be detected."

This is when I try using an mlp file that was created by an extraction from DVD-Audio Explorer. It might have something to do with the channel order. It looks like my mlp file is using this channel order:

ID 20: Group 1 (Lf, Rf, Ls, Rs), Group 2 (C, LFE)

and I'm not sure if eac3to can work with this.

I also don't know if I need to install a bunch of new decoders or if they are included with the zip file. Anyhow, it looks like I've got a lot of reading to do. Thanks for the link. Any advice for making this work is much appreciated.

[gp2221]

There is an open source MLP decoder since a short while which can be used within AviSynth:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1064419#post1064419 (read also the posts after this for how you should use this in AviSynth)

Note that your audio will be downsampled to 16 bit (which is a restriction of ffmpeg) when using this decoder.

Yes, that guide is a bit outdated, but i would like to wait with updating until this MLP decoder is integrated in ffmpeg (they are still fixing bugs ...).

I was hoping to maintain the bitdepth of 24 bit. Do you know if they are working on a version of ffmpeg that will not alter the bitdepth?

[Wilbert]

Do you know if they are working on a version of ffmpeg that will not alter the bitdepth?
It should be possible to wrap it into 32 bit using some settings, but we were unlucky getting this to work. Perhaps it will work when they have added the MLP decoder to ffmpeg (which can happen any moment).

[PeteV]

Wilbert
I used your guide "DVDAGuide" for a dvd-audio with watermarked.
I got 3 wavfiles now.
test_clfe.wav
test_lfrf.wav
test_lsrs.wav
Is it possible to extract those 3 files, so that
I get in the end 5 high quality mono wav files?

[Wilbert]

I used your guide "DVDAGuide" for a dvd-audio with watermarked.
I got 3 wavfiles now.
test_clfe.wav
test_lfrf.wav
test_lsrs.wav
Is it possible to extract those 3 files, so that
I get in the end 5 high quality mono wav files?
Sure. Use Wavewizard, AviSynth, etc ... (Besweet doesn't support 24 bit output). Using AviSynth:

v = Blankclip()
a = WavSource("D:\test_clfe.wav")
AudioDub(v,a).GetChannel(1) # first channel (c)

Open the script in VDub and extract the WAV (File -> Save WAV).

[PeteV]

Thanks.
Got now 6 mono waves.
Made from that a mlp with surcode, and again with disk welder
a dvd-audio.
But on a standaloneplayer again after 10 sec finished.

I don't understand that powerdvd is playing the dvd-audio
without any problem. Even the HQ part.
Is there perhaps a way to stream the output from powerdvd?

[Wilbert]

Thanks.
Got now 6 mono waves.
Made from that a mlp with surcode, and again with disk welder
a dvd-audio.
But on a standaloneplayer again after 10 sec finished.

That's the watermark doing it's job :( It's not possible yet to remove it.

Is there perhaps a way to stream the output from powerdvd?
No idea.

[PeteV]

Thanks.

[mommyman]

I don't understand that powerdvd is playing the dvd-audio
without any problem. Even the HQ part.

Not any version of PowerDVD has watermark detector. Check "C:\Program Files\CyberLink\PowerDVD\AudioFilter" folder. If it does contain CLAud_w.ax file then detector is here, if it's just CLAud.ax then no detector.

[PeteV]

I check it.
It has just CLAud.ax so no detector.
Good to know. Thanks.

[frenchglen]

I have CLAud_w.ax. Does that mean I need to downgrade PowerDVD to an earlier version in order to play burned watermarked DVD-As?

(which wouldn't bother me in the slightest)

[mommyman]

No, that doesn't. Detector was included in some rather old versions of PowerDVD (like 7.0.2602), then disappeared. I'm not sure about the latest one, but you can try to upgrade as well.

[Gotchaa]

Can someone please PM me where I can find dvd-a explorer

[Wilbert]

http://rapidshare.com/files/90993336/DVDAExplorer_a7.exe.html

[mommyman]

http://rapidshare.com/files/91175672/DVDAExplorer.2008.02.07.zip.html

[ron spencer]

when was this updated? Who is going it? Is there a site to look for new DVD-A Explorer updates?

[ron spencer]

it is an update....check the about...says 2008.

last one was 2005

[frenchglen]

There are some VERY interesting new options in alpha8. I highly reccomend anyone interested in DVD-Audio to try it. A new thread should be made, really.

[oelewapper]

There are some VERY interesting new options in alpha8. I highly reccomend anyone interested in DVD-Audio to try it. A new thread should be made, really.

Tried it on Graham Nash - Song for Survivors : doesn't save the wavs........ only a small part and then comes back with an errormessage......

[abcx]

Hmm...assuming this post (http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1102608&postcount=88) is true, we're still in the same situation as we were with DVDFab's DVD-A decryption - we need to get rid of the watermarking. Wish I could help but I'm way too uneducated to do something like this...

[mommyman]

Open source (Alpha 9): http://www.sendspace.com/file/bbuuny

[ron spencer]

you cannot get rid of water mark....this has been discussed all over, including hydrogen audio forums. However, only on DVD-A zone (i.e. assets in AUDIO_TS folder) look for watermark. You can reauthor 96/24 into DVD Video zone (VIDEO_TS) and all players will playback

[ron spencer]

thanks for update mommyman!!!

[Wilbert]

Thank you very much! I can't wait to try it out!

[elshagon]

I've used the Alpha 8 (nice bit of software) and had it rip mlp to 6 wav files. I'm new to this and have a question: does the watermark remain when ripped to individual wav files? If so, it's still nice to use those wav's on discs which only use dolby digital vs. dts, as you can now use them to make a better sounding track. I've also seen some list of players that don't look for the watermark, any info on these players? It would mean you can remove the protection and copy/play on the player despite the watermark still being present.

[mommyman]

Thanks to xkodi some bugs were fixed and a couple of changes were made (it's all about converting to wave format).
http://www.sendspace.com/file/xstonq (Alpha 10). Feel sorry of bothering you with neverending flow of alphas, but DVD-Audio format is at the stage of extinction now and we at least should have some workable tool to transfer audio content to other media.

[ron spencer]

thanks for the updates!!!!

too bad DVD-A never caught on....I have a bunch...

again thanks!!!

-rs

[frenchglen]

thanks mommyman, you KNOW it doesn't bother me. how about a beta? just joking. :D actually, since I don't know anyone else who would probably do it in the near future, do you think flac could be put in? I think most people agree flac is the best format for archiving and playing.

cheers

[ron spencer]

can you save 9624 to flac?

[elshagon]

when I ripped a file to 6 .wav's using alpha 10 the wav's wouldn't load into surcode dvd to encode to dts. When I ripped the same song using alpha 8 it worked. I will try it again tomorrow with another file to see if I simply made a mistake. Also of note the file was 88200 Hz, 24 bit if that matters.
edit: I did convert to 48 Hz prior to loading into surcode both times.

[mommyman]

when I ripped a file to 6 .wav's using alpha 10 the wav's wouldn't load into surcode dvd to encode to dts. When I ripped the same song using alpha 8 it worked.
That is because wave format has been changed. Try to check "Use old format" option.

P.S. There is another bug when ripping to mlp / raw pcm: file doesn't truncate when opened. So it is better to delete the old files manually.

[mommyman]

thanks mommyman, you KNOW it doesn't bother me. how about a beta? just joking. :D actually, since I don't know anyone else who would probably do it in the near future, do you think flac could be put in?
Hmm... That depends on all of you:) It is not tested enough yet to get the beta status. For to get in FLAC has to satisfy some requirements:
1. Be able to encode with bitrate up to 192000 and bitdepth 16, 20 and 24.
2. Be able to encode multichannel with various channel assignments.
3. Be able to encode channels with different bitrates and bitdepths.
Otherwise additional bitrate converter is needed and this is another story:(

[ron spencer]

to be honest...WAV perfectly is probably best then

[jolson]

Nice with some on-going work on this, especially when I have many DVD-A's and more and more manufacturers have dropped DVD-Audio on their latest models, including Meridian (who invented MLP, the basis for DVD-Audio). Would be interesting, in a not-too-distant-future, to be able to rip DVD-Audio and author those tracks on Blu-ray disks and play in a set-top player. But I guess Blu-ray players would barf the same on the watermark, or isn't their checks some form of a super-set of the old copy protection?

[mommyman]

Ability to run external program (flac, etc.) has been added to Alpha 11: http://www.sendspace.com/file/lfm39n

[ron spencer]

thanks!!!

[nevragain]

wow thanks

[mommyman]

Ok, tried, and to expose my low level of knowledge here, how do you use Run program feature?
Thanks man.

Iti s in ReadMe.txt now. Print "flac -f %filepath%" in this box (flac must be added to search path before). This way you can use almost any of command line encoders, not the only one.
Dialogs are to be replaced on natives in Alpha 12. Wondering, how will they look on Mac:).

[nevragain]

oh quick q does this still need windvd?

[Wilbert]

It never did need it (provided the AOBs were decrypted).

[nevragain]

I'm not quite following does the program need windvd to decrypt the AOB or does it work standalone.

[Wilbert]

Since alpha7 (from the readme): "Extraction from protected media with libdvdcpxm library." This library decrypts the encrypted media, so you don't need WinDVD anymore. (Btw, you can also find a standalone version (dvdcpxm.exe) of the libdvdcpcm in this thread.)

[nevragain]

ok thanks I don't have the money for windvd so I am greatfull thank you for your patience in explaining this

[ron spencer]

are there issues with decoding?

see:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61928

[mommyman]

Very likely so... Could somebody give a sample (suppose mlp track) of that?

[mommyman]

I've got the sample of such track, glitches confirmed.

[ron spencer]

can it be fixed?

what versions are affected?


thanks!!!!

[mommyman]

Yes, I hope... Affected versions: 9, 10 and 11

[gfxnow]

How do the latest versions of DVDAExplorer convert MLP to Wave? just curious.
Before i had to go through a tedious process of tricking the surcode MLP encoder.

[mommyman]

It uses mlpdec.c module (written by Ian Caulfield) from FFmpeg project. You can use eac3to in DVDAExplorer for the same purpose without tricks: "eac3to %filepath% c:/dump/eac3to/%filebase%.wav"

[bigpapa4u]

thanks guy!

[mommyman]

Alpha 12: http://www.sendspace.com/file/21sd5j

The problem was in mlpdec.c itself, which was replaced to the newer one. Cannot say that "issue is fixed", you should check log file for "[24] Lossless check failed - expected XX, calculated YY" message. It's about glitches coming...

[gfxnow]

Thanks mommyman, DVDAExplorer is turning into an all-in-one solution for DVD-A backups. Before it was a really lengthy and tedious process.

[ron spencer]

seems to be working ok:

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61928&st=25

[DeadlyFoez]

Hey all, I've been following the dvd-a extracting scene for quite some time now, and recently I have seen the best improvements.

Well, because I dont have my actual hard copies available right now, I started over with online backups I had of the Dark Side of the Moon and Linkin Park's Reanimation.

With dvda explorer, I am having 2 issues, First with the Dark Side..., it will extract all but the 10th track. It will lock up there and I have to End Task with it. It will work fine if I dont have it output to a wav.

Second issue, Reanimation, it will not extract anythign from it, it just gives an error of not being able to open up the mlp converter. If I have it go straight to mlp, the files will be unplayable in the Creative Media Player which normally can play mlps.

My issue might just be that i had to download them from my online backups, and their big files so there is a slight chance for corrupted data, but I doubt it.


Oh, and one more issue is trying to straight encode into flac. I have the the flac binaries into the folder with dvdaexplorer and I have also used the flac codec installer and I still can't get the command line to work.

It would be cool to incorporate CDDB into this if possible, but I'm sure there'd be some smal obsticles, but nothign like ripping dvd-a's.

sweet ass program otherwise. Great job

[frenchglen]

DeadlyFoez: please read forum rules. Especially rule no. 6

[DeadlyFoez]

ummm, I haven't post any links, I have not talked about illegally sharing or downloaded media since it is linking park is somethign I do own, but just in storage because we are moving, and the 4.1 pink floyd was a freely distributed copy, and I didn't mention any names of any sites.

So given those circumstances, if you still feel my post was out of line in any ways then I'll change it, but I did think before I typed out my first post. Thank you for your concern

[DeadlyFoez]

ok, Thanx for the info. Now I have tried exactly that, only exception is that i have all the binary files in that folder, but that should not make a difference because they aren't being referenced.

I'll try it now.

Nope, still not working. I tried both with deleting the files and without. I have everything checked properly. No reason of why it shouldn't work.

And I'm not a newbie to computers bc I am a tech, so no dummy mistakes on this end. weird.

[mommyman]

Guys, is it legal to share and put links to inconvertible mlps to PM box?:) It won't be used for any other puposes except debugging.

DeadlyFoez
Have you tried to check "Log messages" and see what is put in DVDAExplorerEnc.log file?
You can try to use full path to flac.exe in "Run program" like: "c:\flac\flac.exe" "%filepath%"

[Wilbert]

Guys, is it legal to share and put links to inconvertible mlps to PM box?
Of course.

[elshagon]

Tried Alpha 12, and it was much improved....very impressive.

[ron spencer]

@mommyman

this looks good!!!

hydrogen audio testing seems great as well!!!

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=61928&pid=554597&st=48&#entry554597

THANKS!!!

you know what post 48 means?

I think it is from:

http://www.multimediadirector.com/help/technology/dvdaudio/dvdaud_audio.htm

[mommyman]

It seems to be about extracting stereo downmix from multichannel mlp stream. Standard (licensed) decoder does this by decoding substream 0 only. Downmixing coefficients would be needed if you were going to re-encode multichannel.

[ArgonIO]

The problem with indexed mlp tracks still exists -- some tracks displayed without audio stream info. In my case of Alan Parsons -- I Robot, beta 7 showed info only for 1st track info, beta 8 and next -- for all tracks except last.

MLP without audio info can be extracted, but can't be decoded... There is suggestion to combine mlp without info with previous track WITH info solves problem. Yes, combined mlp CAN be decoded, BUT an audible CLICK emerges in place of append of file without info.

Sorry for my english, i'm hope you will understand my problem.

[Wilbert]

The problem with indexed mlp tracks still exists -- some tracks displayed without audio stream info.
Just curious. How do you recognize "indexed mlp" tracks?

[ron spencer]

indexed tracks are tracks that have "sub-tracks" in them

for example, the DVD-A could have 5 tracks

1
2
3
4
5

but you can have tracks within tracks....for example, say in track 3 you make 3 sub tracks, so when you get to track 3 and hit next, you will get sub-track 3 in track 3 as opposed to jumping to track 4....you see this alot in sympohony music.

see more at surcode webiste for discwelder....download Chrome manual here for better than my writing LOL!!!!

http://masi.hosting4less.com/PDFs/CHROME.pdf

[mommyman]

The problem with indexed mlp tracks still exists -- some tracks displayed without audio stream info.
That sounds like mlp major sync doesn't fit in the first block of such track. Or the last track can de dummy one (length one second). What's play time?

[ArgonIO]

The last track is wonderful "Genesis", a masterpiece of The Alan Parsons Project... Length is near 2,5 min.

While playing DVD-A throught PowedDVD there's no click on track change. Is there any way to extract all dvd a in single wav or mlp file, then make cue manually?

[mommyman]

While playing DVD-A throught PowedDVD there's no click on track change. Is there any way to extract all dvd a in single wav or mlp file, then make cue manually?
Definitely this occurs when major sync offset is closer to 2000 and it will be fixed. It's not possible to extract all disc as single wav or mlp because different tracks might have differnt formats. Nevertheless, you can gather number of mlps in the single one by command like this: "copy /b 1.mlp + 2.mlp + 3.mlp all.mlp".

[gfxnow]

For some of my discs DVDAExplorer does not display any info about the MLP track and is unable to convert it to wav (although it does rip the MLP*). This is especially weird because not all tracks of the album are like that, some are fine while others are arbitrarily like this. I am using the latest version, Alpha12.
Interesting Caveat: With Alpha7 I was having the same problem with one of my discs (Porcupine Tree - Stupid Dream) but the newer versions fixed it and i was able to backup that disc.

* = The ripped MLP seems to be garbage as reversing the Surcode MLP encoder on it doesn't extract it into wav files (like normal MLP files).

[mommyman]

Although there are some issues with mlp decoding (see ReadMe.txt) the final Alpha is out: http://www.sendspace.com/file/000tbq

--- ReadMe.txt ----------------------------------------------------------------

Changes:

Alpha 12 => Alpha "Final":

1. Major sync search fixed.
2. "Output directory" file dialog changed.
3. Drag & Drop support for "Open DVD-Audio zone" action.

Alpha 11 => Alpha 12:

1. Various UI improvements.
2. "Wait threshold" option added.
3. MLP decoding module (mlpdec.c) replaced.

Alpha 10 => Alpha 11:

1. "Run program" option added.

Alpha 9 => Alpha 10:

1. Bug in extraction of 16 bit MLP tracks fixed.
2. New wave format added.
3. Channel remapping when "Mergre groups" option checked.

Alpha 8 => Alpha 9:

1. Multiplatform, open source project.
2. MLP decoder has been moved into the main code.

since Alpha 7:

1. Indexed tracks supported.
2. Multiple tracks extraction.
3. Extraction from protected media with libdvdcpxm library.
4. MLP stream decoding with mlpdec module (part of FFmpeg project).

How To:

To run external program on extracted files enter command line in "Run program" edit box.
Select appropriate value for "Wait threshold". Extraction process will wait until difference
in sizes between extracted and processed files drops below threshold. Use smaller values when
short of free space.
Check "Delete files" to remove extracted files after exit from external program.
Command line substitution:
%path% - file path without file name
%filepath% - file name with path
%filename% - file name without file path
%filebase% - file name without extensions
%ext% - file extension
%channels% - total number of channels in file
%samplerate% - sample rate for group 1
%bits% - bits in sample for group 1

Examples:

1. To encode files with flac: flac -f %filepath%
2. To encode files with ffmpeg: ffmpeg -i %filepath% -y %path%/%filebase%.flac

Caveats:

1. When converting MLP tracks check DVDAExplorer.log file for messages from mlpdec.
If there is something like "[24] Lossless check failed - expected XX, calculated YY"
then extracted track should contain glitches.

Known Issues:

1. Track 09 on The Alan Parsons Project "The Turn of a Friendly Card" disc cannot
be extracted due to MLP decoder error: "FIR and IIR filters must use same precision".
2. Track 10 on The Alan Parsons Project "The Turn of a Friendly Card" disc is one block shorter
than declared in ATS_01_0.IFO.

[ron spencer]

can you post the readme as a post here so all can see?

thanks

[73ChargerFan]

From readme.txt....


Caveats:

1. When converting MLP tracks check DVDAExplorer.log file for messages from mlpdec.
If there is something like "[24] Lossless check failed - expected XX, calculated YY"
then extracted track should contain glitches.

Known Issues:

1. Track 09 on The Alan Parsons Project "The Turn of a Friendly Card" disc cannot
be extracted due to MLP decoder error: "FIR and IIR filters must use same precision".
2. Track 10 on The Alan Parsons Project "The Turn of a Friendly Card" disc is one block shorter
than declared in ATS_01_0.IFO.

[mommyman]

Flac is stuck after launch. Then DVDAExplorer extracts 1000MB of data and waits for flac. Try to check "Log messages" and see what is put into DVDAExplorerEnc.log file (must be flac log).

[jolson]

There appears to be a bug when ripping multiple tracks to flac at once. After a few tracks the status bar stays on "waiting..." and nothing happens. I look at the few tracks that are ripped, and they are all still in wav and not flac.
When I cancel and re-rip them again, each track (all the way, no problems) is converted to flac right after it is ripped....like it should be, I'm assuming. But when you first try to rip them, all at once, it must have a bug with using flac.

This has consistently occurred on several discs.
I have the latest flac 1.2.1

I appreciate your inclusion of this excellent feature!

Edit: whoops, it must be that 1000MB wait threshold thing...how does it work? lol

Will this happen only once if you rip several disc after another, or once for each disc?

[frenchglen]

Will this happen only once if you rip several disc after another, or once for each disc?
Bit of a mixed bag really...
But I have word that in the next release this is fixed ;)

[staygroovy]

Guys, I don't know who to thank for this program, but it is absolutely incredible, a godsend for people
like me who are interested in hearing and analyzing the separate components of a surround mix,
and I am blown away by how easy it has become to do this, even for a 'DVD-A n00b' like myself....

sg.

[ron spencer]

a new version???


Yum...can't wait!!!!

[mommyman]

We've got into problems with decoding Grateful Dead "American Beauty" and I don't have this disc for testing. What improvements would you like to find in the new one?

P.S. Multichannel downmix option will be introduced in the new version:)

[frenchglen]

welcome staygroovy! the poster above is da man. It's also open-source, for any coder who wants to come along and collaborate (I wish I was a coder :))

----
Alright mommyman, since you've asked for it,

DVD-AUDIO PLAYBACK! :) (preview what tracks you want to rip, or simply play the disc back like a menu-less CD!)
I would be patient to wait for that at any time in the future

[mommyman]

DVD-AUDIO PLAYBACK! :) (preview what tracks you want to rip, or simply play the disc back like a menu-less CD!)

Kidna tough stuff, huh? The current version of Qt4 library (which is used in DVDAE as frontend) has only rudimentary capabilities of playing sounds and it was promised to be improved in the next incarnation. Let's wait for a while
and see what can be done.
I'm thinking of developing Winamp plugin for MLP/TrueHD playback in case if someone else is not doing the same thing at the moment. Could be more useful...

[mommyman]

Beta 1: http://www.sendspace.com/file/ezrzeo
Changes:
1. Stereo downmix extraction supported.
2. "Recover from stream errors" option added.
3. Threads syncronization bug fixed.

[ron spencer]

good news!!!!

thanks

[mommyman]

If someone is interested this is very raw prototype of Winamp MLP/TrueHD decoder plugin: http://www.sendspace.com/file/f5jrux

[frenchglen]

If someone is interested this is very raw prototype of Winamp MLP/TrueHD decoder plugin: http://www.sendspace.com/file/f5jrux
Wonderful! Excellent.

I have tried many MLP tracks of almost every bitdepth, resolution and channel configuration, and they all work. Also tried very large MLP files (whole albums I joined up and long pink floyd tracks) and they are fine too, seeking is just as fast! + I really like the downmix info you've added in file info dialog! :)

And lastly, gapless playback - I tried out the beatles love album. There appears to be a little click in between the tracks (at the beginning of each track I think), track 3 into track 4 is a good example to try and hear it. I've tried flacs of the same tracks and joining the MLPs, which don't have the click.

[dizziness]

Beta 1: http://www.sendspace.com/file/ezrzeo
Changes:
1. Stereo downmix extraction supported.
2. "Recover from stream errors" option added.
3. Threads syncronization bug fixed.

Great work! Finally I am ripping the 2-ch hi-res from my LOTR discs.

As far as multichannel, how about encoding with tsremuxer and a dummy video channel onto a mini BluRay disc (DVD-5)? I haven't given it a go as I'm ripping discs like mad here. This would appear the ideal way to back up our DVD-A to BD for posterity and multichannel playback without a HTPC.

Ideas?

[mommyman]

This would appear the ideal way to back up our DVD-A to BD for posterity and multichannel playback without a HTPC.
At the first glimpse this looks like pretty smart ass idea of backing up watermarked content:) Untll BD players don't care about watermarking... But seems that the multichannel PCM is the only option for BD because TrueHD is not exactly the same as MLP and MLP to TrueHD conversion cannot be done by patching the stream.

[dizziness]

Great work! Finally I am ripping the 2-ch hi-res from my LOTR discs.?

Has anyone had success ripping SideA from The Lord of the Rings Return of the King? I must have a bad piece of media (which is bad news as its OOP.) I scavenged the web with no luck to replace the media.

At first I thought it was DVDAExplorer but I can't even rip an image without errors. It has problems at the layer flip which is in the 2-ch group. Harumpf.

[dizziness]

At the first glimpse this looks like pretty smart ass idea of backing up watermarked content:) Untll BD players don't care about watermarking... But seems that the multichannel PCM is the only option for BD because TrueHD is not exactly the same as MLP and MLP to TrueHD conversion cannot be done by patching the stream.

I used TSRemuxer 1.7 to make a BDMV folder for burning successfully with a 6-ch WAV ripped from LOTR:ROTK DVD-A, all burnt to a DVD-9.

Here we are, ripping DVD-A>BD losslessly! Now I just need a decent BD player with multichannel decoding to test the disc. My first choice was a PS3 40GB (for SACD playback) but I don't have a surround receiver with HDMI (for multichannel PCM.) Here's hoping that Oppo gets their universal BD/DVD player built ASAP.

I am concerned about channel mapping from WAV>BD but this can be fixed with eac3to if need be.

[jolson]

BTW, wasn't SACD playback removed from the 40GB version?

[DragonQ]

Hi all,

Firstly, great job on the beta! :) I do have a question though - why is it that when using the stereo downmix option the resulting file is so quiet? The loudest song on the album I am ripping barely hits -6db meaning there's wasted resolution there (and I have to turn my speakers up more than should be necessary).

I could do the downmix myself but it would take a long time using Adobe Audition or something. Is there a reason the downmix is so quiet or is it a mistake?

[Hancoque]

To avoid clipping you have to lower the amplitude of the resulting signal by how many input channels you mix into one output channel.

This is the normal 5.1 to stereo downmixing matrix:
|Lf|Rf|C |LFE|Ls |Rs
-+--+--+------+---+------+------
L|1 | |0.7071|0 |0.7071|0
R| |1 |0.7071|0 |0 |0.7071
Thus, the sum for each output channel is 2.4142 (1 + 0.7071 + 0.7071) or +7.655 dB. To compensate for this you have to divide the amplitude of the output channels by this sum. Then the highest possible amplitude would be 1 (0 dB). This is about making the process clipping-proof. But in reality 0 dB is rarely reached because to achieve that every input channel has to have an amplitude of 0 dB at the same sample location. Therefore it's absolutely normal to have peaks much below 0 dB.

I don't know how the program does the downmixing as I don't use it, but it would be ideal to do it in 32-bit floating point and also save the output in this format to avoid quantization errors. If this is not already the case, regard it as a feature suggestion.

By the way: I use foobar2000 with the Matrix Mixer DSP plugin to do the downmixing (in 32-bit floating point). Afterwards I normalize the material with a small command line tool, I wrote myself (also in 32-bit floating point). It is able to normalize multiple files while keeping their relative volume to each other (album normalization). Quality-wise there is no room for improvement. :)

[bertox]

mommyman:

Please upload both files to Mediafire or Rapidshare...

....SendSpace don't works!!!!! He allways ever says: 'Sorry, the free service is at full capacity.'

Please, thank you.

[mommyman]

:
....SendSpace don't works!!!!! He allways ever says: 'Sorry, the free service is at full capacity.'
SendSpace seems to be ok by now. Maybe, that was temporarily.
DragonQ
Downmixes are so silent because they were produced in that way. The default downmix Lf/Rf coefficients for SurCode MLP Encoder are -6dB. This is the point, probably...

[bertox]

SendSpace seems to be ok by now. Maybe, that was temporarily.

Days and days without work....this is not temporal...

Please...:confused:

[mommyman]

DVDAE: http://rapidshare.com/files/111192252/DVDAExplorer2008.04.16.zip.html
Winamp MLP/TrueHD Decoder: http://www.winamp.com/plugins/search/?q=TrueHD
Норе these sites will be ok...

[bertox]

Yeeeaaahhh!!!! ;)

[Hancoque]

@mommyman: I've studied the MLP documentation (http://ecmc.rochester.edu/ecmc/docs/mlp.pdf) a bit and now see that a 6 channel stream might also provide dedicated information for a stereo downmix. I wasn't aware of that before. Does DVD-Audio Explorer fully adhere to that specification? And would it be possible to show the downmix coefficients in the program or at least if default or custom settings have been used?

Edit: I just tested the downmix feature with the seven DVD-Audio discs I own. Only two of them featured a downmix substream and one of them had audible artefacts in the downmix (crackling noise).

[DragonQ]

Crackling in the downmix is usually due to clipping. I also wonder if there's a way to see if there's an included downmix coefficient table on the disc, or even to customise the table manually within the table - that would be a great feature for Beta 2 (hint hint :P)!

The other problem with downmixes is some tracks might have out-of-phase elements (usually vocals) but there's nothing you can do about that. On the DVD-A I ripped there's about 3 of 26 tracks that feature a noticable out of phase vocal.

[Hancoque]

It's not related to clipping as the highest peak of the affected tracks doesn't even reach 60%. The crackling noise only appears at the beginning and end of these tracks (3 out of 14). On one track it vanishes exactly when the drums start playing. Might it be that some channels start later than others and therefore have no information (random data) until a certain point in time?

[DragonQ]

Unlikely...it might just be a bad rip. Have you tried ripping it to 5.1 and trying your own downmixes or just listening to each of the channels around the point where there is crackling to see if it exists on the main 5.1 mix?

[Hancoque]

I have also done a full 5.1 rip. It doesn't show those problems. So, it's definitely related to the downmixing process of DVD-A Explorer.

[DragonQ]

Can you open one of the the downmixed files in Adobe Audition or Audacity or something similar and post a screenshot?

[Hancoque]

http://www.devir.de/temp/dvdae-downmix1.png

http://www.devir.de/temp/dvdae-downmix2.png

http://www.devir.de/temp/dvdae-downmix3.png

[DragonQ]

Hmm. That is very strange, it must be a bug in the program's downmixing code. Hopefully the guy who wrote it will try to help you. :)

[Wraul]

First I want to thank mommyman for the continued development of this wonderful application. The additions has made the process to rip my DVD-A discs so much more enjoyable.

I was also very happy to see that the source code was included.
This enabled me to compile a version for Mac OS X.

The Beta 1 binary can be found here (Mac OS X Universal) http://www.sendspace.com/file/r9520u

I never worked with Qt before and have very little experience with Mac development. Hopefully I've done everything correct. The files I've tested produced identical result as the windows version.

[mommyman]

I have also done a full 5.1 rip. It doesn't show those problems. So, it's definitely related to the downmixing process of DVD-A Explorer.

Amazingly, surcode encoder gives the same crackling sound in downmixed output:() Some of the tracks are a bit shorter when decoded by surcode, but don't differ (except length) from their DVDAE partners. Still haven't found an explatation of these facts. Seems that problem must be in mlp track itself...

[frenchglen]

First I want to thank mommyman for the continued development of this wonderful application. The additions has made the process to rip my DVD-A discs so much more enjoyable.

I was also very happy to see that the source code was included.
This enabled me to compile a version for Mac OS X.

The Beta 1 binary can be found here (Mac OS X Universal) http://www.sendspace.com/file/r9520u

I never worked with Qt before and have very little experience with Mac development. Hopefully I've done everything correct. The files I've tested produced identical result as the windows version.
I'm not a mac user (at the moment) so cannot test it, but I'm very very happy to see this compiled, thank you! and welcome to doom9!

"DVD-Audio, say Hi to FLAC"...Now possible on Mac. :)

[DragonQ]

I converted the stereo downmix to WMA Lossless for storage but I've kept the 5.1 mixes in WAV so I can make remixes from them :D.

[mommyman]

And would it be possible to show the downmix coefficients in the program or at least if default or custom settings have been used?
I've been playing a bit with matrixing stage of mlp decoder and can say that the answer is rather negative.

[borndevil]

First I want to thank mommyman for the continued development of this wonderful application. The additions has made the process to rip my DVD-A discs so much more enjoyable.

I was also very happy to see that the source code was included.
This enabled me to compile a version for Mac OS X.

The Beta 1 binary can be found here (Mac OS X Universal) http://www.sendspace.com/file/r9520u

I never worked with Qt before and have very little experience with Mac development. Hopefully I've done everything correct. The files I've tested produced identical result as the windows version.

thank you, thank you, thank you!
it worked perfectly on leopard, and many many thanks to all those will contribute to this awesome project!
:thanks:

[Wraul]

thank you, thank you, thank you!
it worked perfectly on leopard, and many many thanks to all those will contribute to this awesome project!
:thanks:

I know what a pain in the but it can be with these kind of specialist programs only being writen for windows. It is so boring to reboot into Windows every time you want to rip a DVD-A (Well ok it dosen't happen that often with the minimal number of DVD-A releases). Anyway when I saw that the source was released I thought I should make my part and make DVD-A one of the few exceptions.

I just wish I could run EAC in OS X and I no more reboots to Windows for me.

Glad someone more than me appreciate to run DVD-A native in OS X.

You should direct most of your thanks towards mommyman that made this possible by open the source and using qt when programing.

[Ohrnator]

Hey,

first of all thank you for this great program, simple and effective!:thanks:

So far I ripped several of my discs and it worked great, only Metallica's Black Album doesn't work. I just want the 2-channel tracks and the log says

[32] ### MLP Stream (channels: 2, sample_rate: 96000, bits_per_sample: 24) ###
[16] Substream 0 parity check failed
[16] Substream 0 checksum failed
[16] Substream 0 data indicated length goes off end of packet.
[16] IIR filter order 12 is greater than maximum 8

Is there a workaround for that or should I wait for a new version?

Thanks again

[Ohrnator]

Didn't do, created a wav file with only 8 kb. Now the log's very big and mostly with this info

[32] ### Looking for major sync (length: 2013) ###
[16] ### Recovering from stream error (bytes skipped: 22032) ###
[16] Major sync info header checksum error
[16] Major sync info header checksum error
[32] ### Looking for major sync (length: 3935) ###

It wrote to send a bug report to the ffmpeg site.

[frenchglen]

Hopefully this issue will be resolved sooner of later. One disc that I have, "American Beauty" by Grateful Dead, also has troubles with track 2 (I wonder if anyone else has this disc and has that problem).
An alternative for now would be to just extract the MLP without decoding, and play it in Winamp using mommyman's plugin (http://www.winamp.com/plugins/details/221516).

---------
Hey mommyman, because I'm not too savvy with the command-line switch syntax, what would you reccomend for someone who wanted to downconvert the tracks to WMA/MP3/AAC etc?
It might be good to write a list of recommended free encoders, and their respective command lines. Also can it be done with dBPoweramp?

[mommyman]

Hey mommyman, because I'm not too savvy with the command-line switch syntax, what would you reccomend for someone who wanted to downconvert the tracks to WMA/MP3/AAC etc?
It might be good to write a list of recommended free encoders, and their respective command lines. Also can it be done with dBPoweramp?
Frankly, I'm not very experienced with these encoders too. As I know dBPoweramp has command-line interface CoreConverter.exe which can be used with DVDAE.

[jolson]

Foobar2000 (with plugins) is good for converting between most formats, but I guess you would need to save as WAV/FLAC first. Are you thinking of downsampling multi-channel to stereo at the same time?

[Ohrnator]

Will there be a plugin to play mlp in foobar, too? Because I'm done with Winamp and don't want to install it again just to hear one of my discs.

[Hancoque]

Why don't you just convert the files to FLAC? You will even get smaller files.

[Ohrnator]

You should read my earlier posts: I can't convert the mlp to another format, at least not with the latest version and also not with discwelder chrome...

[mommyman]

Beta 2: http://www.sendspace.com/file/b0vv8b

Changes: Beta 1 => Beta 2:

1. Build with Qt v4.4 library.
2. "Select All" tracks option added.
3. Audio watermark detection utility added.

[Fireye]

Amazing job, I was hoping that DVD-A ripping would eventually be this easy!

[rasth]

Has anyone cracked a SACD yet?

[xkodi]

Has anyone cracked a SACD yet?

from the wikipedia article about SACD:

https://www.dvdupgrades.ch/product/Modification/SPDIF/Output/Six_channel_S_P_DIF_output_board/24308.html

[gfxnow]

I've heard sony was going to release vaio computers capable of decoding DSD and playing SACDs.
They have this software called Sony DSD Direct Player (scroll down a little):
http://vaio-online.sony.com/prod_info/vgn-fz15g/software.html
It also lets you burn DVDs to create "DSD discs" (basically SACD format on a dvd disc) which can be played on the Playstation 3 and possibly on some combo players.

[mommyman]

Then SONY should have developed some special DVD/SACD combo drive for this model. That would cost SONY a fortune... Now there is an affordable DVD player Pioneer DV-600AV which can output DSD through HDMI. In tandem with HDMI input capable audio card it probably could be used to capture DSD.

[frenchglen]

Then SONY should have developed some special DVD/SACD combo drive for this model. That would cost SONY a fortune... Now there is an affordable DVD player Pioneer DV-600AV which can output DSD through HDMI. In tandem with HDMI input capable audio card it probably could be used to capture DSD.
I guess they should have. They've just been so worried about piracy, but instead thy should be allowing their users to have a bit more usability with the format and play on PC. And enjoy DSD for what it is.

You have said that someone who has the time and motivation just needs to create a special "DSD" protocol stack on the iLink/firewire connection, and use a receiver's certificate from firmware to authenticate and allow the DSD stream. I'm not sure how this could work with HDMI, but I know the Asus HDAV1.3 coming out next month, has one HDMI input jack (although only officially meant for video signal input).
Does this help? I'm assuming one would need to create modded driver/firmware for the card, write some sort of DSD implementation (source filter?) so that you can allow input and playback back to the receiver over HDMI bitstream...because DSD is so rare in the PC market, they're not going to support it in official drivers yet, I can almost guarantee.

[jolson]

Hehe. mommyman, shall I say what is actually possible on the horizon (but that someone needs to just do the work needed ;))?

To give a hint, rasth:
If someone manages to rip an "SACD image" from an SACD, you can't possibly burn it back to an "SACD DVD-R" - at least if you want it to play back on your SACD player (which is kinda the whole point).
Well, there are several different possible points... :)
My DVD-Audio player is so much better than my SACD-capable DVD player, that my SACD almost never get played. I would like my SACD's converted to either DVD-Audio discs, "mini-Blu-rays" (Blu-ray structured discs on DVD9's, readable on standalone Blu-ray players) or highres, multichannel FLAC.

The old Denon 2800 universal players were said to be easy to rebuild to get digital audio out, so some newer Pioneer players. But especially the Pioneer players are a bit too low quality...

[jolson]

Then SONY should have developed some special DVD/SACD combo drive for this model. That would cost SONY a fortune...
Didn't the earlier PS3's have such a drive?

[mommyman]

because DSD is so rare in the PC market, they're not going to support it in official drivers yet, I can almost guarantee.
Even worse. If they don't use DSD capable HDMI receiver chip then this game is over.

2 jolson
I don't know about PS3 drive. But what DVD drives SONY's DSD aware VAIOs use?

2 gfxnow
Didn't find any mention of SACD in VGN-FZ15G specs.

[frenchglen]

Even worse. If they don't use DSD capable HDMI receiver chip then this game is over.
I suppose so. The fact the the Auzentech prelude card supports stereo DSD may offer some hope. I wonder how or when we can find out what chips they use...

[ron spencer]

@frenchglen

thanks for the manuals!!!!

[gfxnow]

@mommyman
sorry my post was a bit confusing, i said i've heard sony is going to release a SACD capable VAIO computer.
The VGN-FZ15G link was only about the DSD direct player, which shows that there is software support for DSD on their laptops, so perhaps a model might come out with a DVD/SACD/etc combo drive (like the one in the earlier Playstation 3s).

On a side note i wonder if it is possible to hack/take-out the older SACD-supporting PS3 drive and get it to work with a PC, like what people did with the xbox hddvd drive.

[Foul]

Firstly Hi to everyone, long time lurker, short term member :)

Secondly @ Mommyman, fantastic job on DVDA explorer, since I moved to a HTPC I have had very limited success with getting various software players to play my DVDA's. I have now ripped all but two discs to WAV then to Flac high quality multi channel and am now enjoying them on a regular basis. I use Winamp in 24bit mode with my Auzentech Prelude in Audio (bitmatched 96khz) mode and the results are spectacular!

The two discs I haven't ripped seem to have two audio groups on the disc within each track and when I try to rip them I get the message 'encrypted stream'. The two discs are The blueman group - The complex and Foo Fighters - One by One. (before anyone asks, i do own these original disc's and simply want to back them up to format I can actually use)

I have tried ticking and unticking all options. If I ignore stream encryption I get files that around 105k in size, is there a fix or enhancement for this coming soon do you think? Has anyone else had success with discs like these please?

Cheers

Nick

[mommyman]

Does someone experience the same problem with these discs? Might be very interesting case...

[Hancoque]

I didn't have any problems ripping The Complex.

[gfxnow]

I was able to rip The Complex with the very first alpha

[mommyman]

And what about Foo Fighters - One by One? It's still under question...

[jolson]

On a side note i wonder if it is possible to hack/take-out the older SACD-supporting PS3 drive and get it to work with a PC, like what people did with the xbox hddvd drive.
Possibly better to install Linux on the PS3...?

[Chrisssssssss]

One big thanks to all that have worked on this tool. Simply awesome. Kudos to all of you that are much smarter and have more patience than I to code programs.

However, on my Mac, I am having a problem using beta2. It recognizes the .exe file as a text file. I cannot get it to run as an executable in the mac os. I used it in my windows bootcamp partition with no problems and it worked great. All of my DVD-A's are now as wav files on my HD so that I can use my computer as the media source.

If you could repost the beta 2 or maybe try and recompile it, I will test it for functionality on my mac. Like I said, beta 1 works as an executable, beta 2, not so much... Or is it possibly I am doing something incorrectly?

Thanks again and I look forward to trying the ripping process on the mac side (although all of my Current DVD-A's are already done) I would like to still be able to do so on the mac side.

Cheers
Chris

[Wraul]

One big thanks to all that have worked on this tool. Simply awesome. Kudos to all of you that are much smarter and have more patience than I to code programs.

However, on my Mac, I am having a problem using beta2. It recognizes the .exe file as a text file. I cannot get it to run as an executable in the mac os. I used it in my windows bootcamp partition with no problems and it worked great. All of my DVD-A's are now as wav files on my HD so that I can use my computer as the media source.

If you could repost the beta 2 or maybe try and recompile it, I will test it for functionality on my mac. Like I said, beta 1 works as an executable, beta 2, not so much... Or is it possibly I am doing something incorrectly?

Thanks again and I look forward to trying the ripping process on the mac side (although all of my Current DVD-A's are already done) I would like to still be able to do so on the mac side.

Cheers
Chris

You are not doing anything wrong. The reason the .exe file won't run in OS X is the fact that it's a windows program which OS X don't know how to execute. The same principle that other windows programs wont run in OS X.

You could run beta 1 in OS X because:
1. mommyman provided the source code for the application.
2. mommyman used the Qt framework when developing the program, this makes the program sort of platform independent.
3. I used the source provided by mommyman and compiled it into a OS X application.

Now to the good news. mommyman released the source code for beta 2 too. This made it possible to compile a version for OS X which you can download here OS X Binary (Universal) of Beta 2 (http://www.sendspace.com/file/78fuxa)

Now you can continue to happily rip your DVD-A in OS X.

[Chrisssssssss]

Hey there,

OK, so I got the program to run on the Mac side, however I am getting an "Encrypted Stream" error message when I try and extract the same disc that worked just fine on the PC side. Just thought that I would give a heads up on that issue. Any thoughts?

Thanks again for all the hard work
Chris

[mommyman]

Decryption library (libdvdcpxm) is not ported to Linux & MacOS. You can't rip protected discs on Mac.

[Chrisssssssss]

I guess that explains it then... :)

[jolson]

Oh, *when* do I get the time to try these things out more thoroughly...

[Jens S]

Has anyone cracked a SACD yet?

No, though PS3 probably provides the best platform so far for this.

I've heard sony was going to release vaio computers capable of decoding DSD and playing SACDs.
Didn't the earlier PS3's have such a drive?

The 20GB, 60GB and initial 80GB model have a CD/SACD/DVD/BD drive. The 40GB and new 80GB model announced this week just have a CD/DVD/BD drive. Probably all can play DSD Discs though.

There's a guide about how to make DSD Disc at http://www.ps3sacd.com/dsddiscguide.html

@mommyman
sorry my post was a bit confusing, i said i've heard sony is going to release a SACD capable VAIO computer.
The VGN-FZ15G link was only about the DSD direct player, which shows that there is software support for DSD on their laptops, so perhaps a model might come out with a DVD/SACD/etc combo drive (like the one in the earlier Playstation 3s).

It must be technically possible but I doubt Sony will do that. SACD was specifically designed such that it can't be read by PC DVD-ROM drives.

On a side note i wonder if it is possible to hack/take-out the older SACD-supporting PS3 drive and get it to work with a PC, like what people did with the xbox hddvd drive.
Possibly better to install Linux on the PS3...?

There's a discussion about the idea of playing SACDs under Linux on PS3 here (http://www.ps3sacd.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=73).

Carrying a little further and probably more interesting (because the PS3's UI doesn’t support it) is the idea of playing DVD-Audio discs on PS3 under Linux. It's discussed in here (http://www.ps3-hacks.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6002).

The idea is that DVD-Audio is basically just a DVD-ROM (which PS3 can read) with some specific audio files (such as multichannel, high-resolution PCM, which the PS3 can decode) so if someone were to port a DVD-Audio player like DVDAE to Linux for PS3 it might make a yet greater multi-format player.

Sounds like an interesting idea?

[ron spencer]

thanks again for this proggy....such a big help.


I am curious though....are there any other development ideas?

thanks again!!!

[mommyman]

Beta 3: http://www.sendspace.com/file/4muyhm
Changes:
1. Build with the "official" mlpdec.c module (revision 14206).
2. User manual added.

[Balwyn]

Nice job Mommyman ! really really nice job, thanks a bunch

[ron spencer]

love it!!!

[rrkradio]

WRAUL ..... Please update to BETA 3 the OSX version :thanks:

[musicmanseattle]

Hello!

First off, thanks so much to Mommyman and anyone else who's worked on this project - it great to be able to back up my DVD-A discs.

Had a question, though - I've got one DVD-A - Naxos 5.110102-03 - Bach's Mass in B minor conducted by Helmut Muller-Bruhl, that when I attempt to convert on particular track (Disc 2, Track 4) of the MLP disc data data to WAV, it crashes DVDAExplorer - access violation. Also, if I just grab the MLP directly off the disc (which works) and attempt to play it through the TrueHD/MLP decoder plugin for WinAmp, it doesn't play there either. However, the disc plays just fine through my 2 DVD-A disc players.

If I turn on logging in DVDAExplorer when attempting to convert to WAV, I see this:
[32] ### MLP Stream (channels: 6, sample_rate: 96000, bits_per_sample: 24) ###
[24] Stream parameters not seen; skipping frame.
There are lots of lines like the second one, then the app crashes with an access violation.

Can I provide more information about this error somehow for debugging purposes?


Thanks!

[Wraul]

WRAUL ..... Please update to BETA 3 the OSX version :thanks:

Here you go.

OS X Binary (Universal) of Beta 3 (http://www.sendspace.com/file/y2vmcr)

I haven't had time to test rip a DVD-A with it yet, hope it works without problems anyway.

[rrkradio]

Here you go.

OS X Binary (Universal) of Beta 3 (http://www.sendspace.com/file/y2vmcr)

I haven't had time to test rip a DVD-A with it yet, hope it works without problems anyway.

Hello Wraul, i tried "on the fly" with 2 DVD-A (one with PCM stereo 2ch and another with downmixing enabled) .... PERFECT under OSX 10.5.4

Tnx again

[Pumpa]

Suggestion for beta4 ?
a) Possible to get one wave file for all selected tracks (good for whole album in one file)
b) Generate CUEsheet for "split" tracks in one file

a) is high important for me, b) not :)

[gfxnow]

a) Possible to get one wave file for all selected tracks (good for whole album in one file)

That's quite barbaric :p

[Pumpa]

I did not found application for proper joining WAV files with WAVE_FORMAT_EXTENSIBLE. Foobar2000 makes standard wavs...
Anyone could help ?

[73ChargerFan]

Me neither...

Try opening 2 files in separate Audacity sessions, then copy/paste one channel at time, then save.

[73ChargerFan]

eac3to source1.wav+source2.wav result.wav
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1133627#post1133627

[Pumpa]

eac3to result:

WAV, 5.1 channels, 0:04:23, 24 bits, 88.2khz
Source file joining currently doesn't work for WAV files.

[audio_cf]

Are there any stand alone DVD-A players that doesn't check for the water mark?
Are there any firmware modified players that doesn't look for the water mark ?

I would like to play my backupss in a player that can send the audio over HDMI.

[rrkradio]

Hello audio_cf,
look at this thread

http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?p=1113750&postcount=50

roby

[mommyman]

This is my last post here. I quit DVDAE project. Thanks for everyone who participated.

[ron spencer]

sorry you are leaving......

[73ChargerFan]

same here, best wishes mommyman

[jolson]

Yes, many thanks :)

[gfxnow]

I wish you best of luck in all your future endeavors mommyman. You've been an invaluable resource to the DVD-A community.

[tteich]

This is my last post here. I quit DVDAE project. Thanks for everyone who participated.
Thanks mommyman! Best wished for your future projects.

[nevragain]

I wish you the best of luck mommyman.

[DragonQ]

Hi guys I have a problem related to this program. When I chose to make downmixes it saved them as 24-Bit 96kHz Stereo WAV files that play fine in all media players. However, when I open them in Adobe Audition 3.0 (to make some edits etc.) and save them as "Microsoft PCM WAV" (24-Bit, 96kHz, Stereo), they do not play in any of my media players. The file appears to be playing but there is no sound. The only differences I can see in the file attributes are that there is a new "Audio Format" attribute whose value is "PCM" - this attribute does not exist on the original (working) files. However, if I save the file as a "32-Bit float" Microsoft PCM WAV in Audition, they play fine! Here is an image to explain:

http://www.aotplaza.com/Files/Audio Problem.PNG

I don't think that WAV requires any codecs so it can't be a codec problem, right? Any ideas?

[DragonQ]

Yeah I was pretty sure it was a problem with Audition but thought that someone who knew more about how DVD-A Explorer saved its WAV files might be able to help me. I fixed the problem by setting ffdshow to handle all WAV files. According to some websites I have visited, high resolution and/or surround sound WAV files can only be played back natively if they are in WAVE EXTENSIBLE format and the files I was saving were in PCM format, which cannot be played back natively (due to Microsoft not implementing backwards compatibility properly, sigh). Thanks anyway :).

[rrkradio]

Tnx for your beautiful soft

[MooCan]

Hi,

Thanks for this amazing great tools for DVD-A lovers.
I'm using the last beta 3 and I have an "MLP decoder Error" on QUEEN A Night At The Opera Track 07 as I have with a previous version of DVDAExplorer with MIKE OLDFIELD Tubular Bells 2003 which does not exist for this DVD-A since Beta 1.

Kind Regards

[frenchglen]

Just to keep the links alive, here's rapidshare mirrors for DVDAExplorer:

Windows version, beta 3: http://rapidshare.com/files/143230493/DVDAExplorer2008.07.21.zip
Mac version beta 3: http://rapidshare.com/files/143238083/DVDAExplorerBeta3OSX.zip

MooCan: I had no problem with Queen Night at Opera.

[ron spencer]

were there any outstanding issues with this proggy? Seems to work well 4 most

[plonk420]

thanks. worked with Beck's album... haven't EVER been able to play it before... :)

edit: oh man, LOVE the merge option too. HUGE thanks to everyone who contributed to the project :D i'm ordering my 3rd DVD-Audio disc because of this project... (i hope it's better than the CDDA mix of the disc (Nightwish's Dark Passion Play))

[El_Barto]

excuse me i still cannot decrypt Black Album - Metallica. Always having a screen that advise me that stream is encrypted. So cannot make even one copy?
Tomorrow ill try also with Dance of Death from iron maiden.
Thanks a lot anyway!

[chairlgmc]

Thank you for doing this - am now loving all 12 of my discs in the glory they were meant to be heard.

now if i could only afford those steely dan discs...........

Anthony

[dizziness]

excuse me i still cannot decrypt Black Album - Metallica. Always having a screen that advise me that stream is encrypted. So cannot make even one copy?
Tomorrow ill try also with Dance of Death from iron maiden.
Thanks a lot anyway!

I have problems with the Mac version. The PC version rips the Warner discs fine.

[Pitou]

Hello,

I've tried 4x DVD-A and all of them give me the "media stream is encrypted" erroe message. I'm using XP and the beta 3 version.

Tried with Mike oldfield - Tubular bell, Queen - The Game, Chesky Dvd sampler, and REM - Best of

Any idea?

Thanks.

Pitou!

[Pitou]

ok I found the problem. I was using windows in a VirtualBox. It works fine in a real windows.

[gubbah]

And what about Foo Fighters - One by One? It's still under question...

I'm having the same trouble...

Using DVD-Audio Explorer (Beta 3) it returns "encrypted stream" error.

OK...so I try dvdcpxm, which returns...

" Processing media key block...
Unprotected media is loaded in drive G:
Nothing to do, exit! "

OK...straight copy to HDD...re-run DVD-Audio Explorer...same "encrypted stream" error.

Is this disc using some obscure protection that other discs aren't using?

[gubbah]

Sorry guys...sorted it out...

I ignored stream encryption (duh!)

Wonder why it says it's encrypted when it's not?

[ggking7]

Has anyone been able to get this working on Linux via wine? I get:

"mingwm10.dll" failed to initialize

[ggking7]

Nevermind, got it going via wine.

[odin24]

I'm getting the error MLP decoder failed during extraction. I tried to convert to WAVE. I'm using the latest version a few post's ago.

Am I supposed to have other decoders installed while running DVD-A Explorer?

I'm getting the same error as Gubbah (post #381 & 382), I try the ignore error feature and that is when I get the MLP decoder failed during extraction problem.

[ggking7]

odin24, are you using wine? If so, try unmounting and mounting the DVD-A again. I was having the same problem as you.

[odin24]

Windows Vista.

[Mark_A_W]

Has anybody managed to convert Remain in Light to WAV?

I get a MLP decoder error. If I set it to ignore errors, I get a 45KB wav file :(

It will spit out the MLP files.

(Vista32).

Ta

Mark

[Mark_A_W]

Ok, I got it working on my old PC running XP, as opposed to my new PC with Vista32.

Of course, it was fun fun fun as the old PC's drive wouldn't read the DualDisc, so I had to go back and forth across the network.


Anyway, it's all done and converted to FLAC (so I can listen with Digital Room Correction in the filter path)...sweet.

[TommyV22]

OK I am just trying to get up to speed here.

Using this latest DVDA Explorer prog, is it possible to make a 1:1 copy of a DVD-Audio disc without converting it to any other format like WAV? Basically can they be ripped to the HDD unchanged and then burned so they will play in my DVD-A player exactly like the original? Is there any prog that does this?

[frenchglen]

OK I am just trying to get up to speed here.

Using this latest DVDA Explorer prog, is it possible to make a 1:1 copy of a DVD-Audio disc without converting it to any other format like WAV? Basically can they be ripped to the HDD unchanged and then burned so they will play in my DVD-A player exactly like the original? Is there any prog that does this?

DVDFab Platinum is what you need to use. Use the "clone" function to make a perfect disc copy.

But if the disc is watermarked you need a dvd-a player that ignores watermarks. what model do you have?

[Ghitulescu]

But if the disc is watermarked you need a dvd-a player that ignores watermarks. what model do you have?

Is there any list of them?

[rica]

OK I am just trying to get up to speed here.

Using this latest DVDA Explorer prog, is it possible to make a 1:1 copy of a DVD-Audio disc without converting it to any other format like WAV? Basically can they be ripped to the HDD unchanged and then burned so they will play in my DVD-A player exactly like the original? Is there any prog that does this?

Hi,

I don't think it's a good idea to copy DVD-A disc since you will never achieve to play it on any standalone player.
(BTW you can give it a go with ImgBurn as well.)

Here is the DVD_A structure. Do you see any mlps? They are hidden under the sub-folders.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6703/dvdastructure.th.png (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/dvdastructure.png/)

And you see a dvdaudio.mkb file; lets have a look at what mkb is:

Decryption process
To view the movie, the player must first decrypt the content on the disc. The decryption process is somewhat convoluted. The disc contains 4 items—the Media Key Block (MKB), the Volume ID, the Encrypted Title Keys, and the Encrypted Content. The MKB is encrypted in a subset difference tree approach. Essentially, a set of keys are arranged in a tree such that any given key can be used to find every other key except its parent keys. This way, to revoke a given device key, the MKB needs only be encrypted with that device key's parent key.

Once the MKB is decrypted, it provides the Media Key, or the km. The km is combined with the Volume ID (which the program can only get by presenting a cryptographic certificate to the drive, as described above) in a one-way encryption scheme (AES-G) to produce the Volume Unique Key (Kvu). The Kvu is used to decrypt the encrypted title keys, and that is used to decrypt the encrypted content.[4][6]

(from Wiki)

So, afaik you have two options:

First: Decrypt mlps and leave them as they are:

Follow the steps one to four here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1254323#post1254323

Put mlp(s) into an mka container via mkvmerge gui.

Open this mka via graphstudio/graphedit or MPC-HC:

Register matroskasplitter.ax under standalone MPC-HC filters.
And here is the chain:

mpc matroska Source > ffdshow > Default Direct sound device

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1273595#post1273595

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1274039#post1274039

Second: Convert them to flac:

Follow the steps five to six here:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1254323#post1254323

_ _ _ __ _

[raquete]

Just to keep the links alive, here's rapidshare mirrors for DVDAExplorer:

Windows version, beta 3: http://rapidshare.com/files/143230493/DVDAExplorer2008.07.21.zip
Mac version beta 3: http://rapidshare.com/files/143238083/DVDAExplorerBeta3OSX.zip

MooCan: I had no problem with Queen Night at Opera.

link to Windows version, beta 3 was removed by uploader, then i upload (same windows version) : http://rapidshare.com/files/269191887/DVDAExplorer2008.07.21.zip

[ron spencer]

@rica

backups do play...only time they doe not is if watermarked and you burn as dvd-a

[rica]

@rica

backups do play...only time they does not is if watermarked and you burn as dvd-a

Ron,
Even un-watermarked DVD-A copies didn't play on my standalone Pioneer.
Anyway, i think the best way is to use DVD-Audio ripper and DVD Audio solo together.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1315849#post1315849

[Music Fan]

Hi,
I'm new here and this is my first post (and my mother tongue is not english, as you will see :D ).
I have already created a dvd-audio, burnt it and listened to it without problem, but I don't understand everything about dvd-a copy. Thus, I have some questions.

-I know how to see if there's a CPPM-protection (DVDAUDIO.MKB in the AUDIO_TS directory), but how do we see if it's watermarked or not (if it's possible) ?
I read several times that it was impossible to remove watermarking, but I found this ;
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/209714
When you has passed the files with DVDARipper into Hard Drive, because don't you try to make something like this?:
"ppcmripper 96000 F:\AUDIO_TS D:\TEMP -w -s" (THIS IS A EXPERIMENTAL *.BAT).
Probably you was able to capture the surround music.
Note:
F:\AUDIO_TS is the directory where you store the ripped DVD-AUDIO with DVDARipper.
D:\TEMP is the directory where ppcmripper send the ripped music.
The -w (cut the watermarks) an -s (capture the surround).
Be sure the frequency is 96000 or another (WinDVD indicates in Information dialog).

Is it a joke or it does really work ?

-Watermarking doesn't look important for people who convert dvd-a to Flac or other formats. So, is it only problematic when whe make an exact copy ?
Hopefully, even in this case, it's not a problem when the player is insensitive to Watermarking. I have the Pioneer dv-585, but I don't know if he accepts watermarked dvd-a copies, as the 575 does. I didn't see the 585 in the list of working players with watermarked copies, so I hope this list is incomplete.

-What's the last version of dvdaripper ? I believe it's 099f but I'm not sure.

-How do we use exactly dvdaripper ?
I read the readme.txt but I mean, in the command line, do we have to specify the exact place of the program ? For example ;
C:\program files\dvdaripper.exe <D:\dvd-a\AUDIO_TS> <F:\copy folder>
The readme is not very clear on this point and I'm not regular with command lines.:o

-I guess that we have to put the WinDVD.dll (given with dvdaripper) in the same directory than dvdaripper and that it doesn't replace Windvd (the whole program) that we also have to install, am I right ?

-I read that some guys have problems to copy dvd-audio with some versions of Windvd. What are the versions really working ? Or the non-working, if it's shorter.

-If the AUDIO_TS part is higher than 4,38 GB (dvd-5) and that we wanna burn a dvd-9 (actually no choice), do we have to choose a place for layer-break (with GEAR PRO Mastering), as with dvd-video (easy with Imgburn), or it's not important with dvd-audio ?
Because I'm afraid to here a break in the middle of a song.

Sorry for all these questions :o, but the answers are not easy to find.
Thanks a lot for your help ! ;)

[Midzuki]

@ Music Fan:

Just in case... you haven't noticed it yet:

the year is 2009, not 2005. :D

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22dvdaexplorer%22&btnG=Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=shaplay+shadson&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=foobar2000+dvd-audio+plugin&btnG=Google+Search

HTH!

[Music Fan]

:(
A more detailed response would be ... nice.;)

[raquete]

Music Fan, get DVD-A Explorer.
is very easy to use.
just unrar somewhere and look "DVD-Audio Explorer User Manual.html" inside.
have lots of options to extract the files.

http://rapidshare.com/files/269191887/DVDAExplorer2008.07.21.zip

cheers!

[Music Fan]

Thank you raquete ;), but I have it !
I tried it yesterday but I don't find the way to copy the entire AUDIO_TS folder.:o
Is it possible with this program or it's only done for people who wanna extract the tracks ?

Anyway, I found this interesting topic on another forum ;
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/751985
The guy (stephano1) says that DvdFab can copy dvd-audio. It's maybe what I need because I wanna make an exact copy (to keep the menus).
He also speaks about watermarking problems and he can read watermarked copies on a player which reads watermarks ! But anther guy cannot with his Denon player.


Another question : is the watermarking problematic even when the tracks are converted into another format or only when we make dvd-audio copies ?
I ask it because I have an idea for people who cannot read copies or compilation (made from several dvd-audio) because of watermarking and who don't want to :
-compress the sound in a lossy format
-read the sound from their pc
=> AVCHD could be a solution ! But you need a Blu-ray player or a PS3.
As you surely know, it supports the same audio formats than Blu-ray (I'm not 100 % sure about that but nearly), so you can put 3 lossless codecs ; LPCM, Dolby True HD and DTS MA.
The simplest format is of course the LPCM, because you don't need to compress the sound in True HD or DTS MA, but as these 2 formats are compressed, they allow you to put more music in the same quality than LPCM.
But I believe that we cannot put only music on AVCHD, so we have to add video. And I guess that the chapters need to be on Keyframes.
A mpeg-2 video in 480i/p (or 576i/p) at 2Mps is enough and compatible with AVCHD (useful for not losing too much space for sound).

I have read a little bit more than the half of this topic, so excuse me if this idea has already been evoked in the few pages I have not read. :o ;)

[rica]

@Music fan,
Have you ever taken a look at these:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1310090#post1310090

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1316893#post1316893


_ _ _ _

[dizziness]

Can someone recompile Beta 3 for Mac 10.6?

[Music Fan]

@ rica :yes, I had seen this page, thanks.
But I find my solution (AVCHD) easier to achieve.
As I said, AVCHD is for people who prefer to avoid pc, and we can't read Flac with a standalone player.

Nobody answered me about exact copy of AUDIO_TS folder. Nobody here is interested by that ?
So, I tried Dvd Fab and it looks great. I haven't burnt the dvd yet, but I guess it will work on my Pioneer dv-585 (Mediatek chipset).
I tried the two ways to copy a dvd-audio with this program, and the clone mode (iso image) keeps everything, even the CPPM protection !
The full disc mode remove it but keeps everything else (menus).
This choice is cool and could be very useful for people who have watermarking problems.
Unless no one of these two solutions works. That's where AVCHD takes place. Except if watermarking don't allow that, but it would be astonishing.
That's why I would like to know in wich cases watermarking is recognized. I mean, wich formats (codecs) and supports (cd, Dvd-video, AVCHD ...) keep a trace of it and block the player.
Another way to ask it ;
Does watermarking need a player made to recognize it (dvd-audio player) to be efficient ?
If yes, AVCHD (or dvd-video in DTS for example) should work (if the Blu-ray player cannot read dvd-audio and is not made to be sensitive to watermarking).
If no, how is it possible ?

[Music Fan]

Not a lot of answers here.:confused:

I continued my tests, and I can burn and read on my Pioneer dv-585 a clone copy made by Dvd fab and burnt by Imgburn, but this dvd was not protected by CPPM. AUDIO-TS and VIDEO_TS folders of this dvd hold together on a dvd-5.
My protected dvd-audio don't hold on dvd-5, and I don't want to burn them on dvd-9 if I'm not sure that it will work (because of the price of dvd-9), and there's another big problem.
As I said a few posts before, it's possible to extract the AUDIO_TS of the iso image and open it with Gear Pro to burn only the AUDIO_TS part when it holds on a dvd-5, but GEAR PRO cannot open the copies of protected (clone with MKB file) or even decrypted (MKB removed) dvd-audio (by Dvd Fab in both cases) !:eek:
Actually, he can (sometimes), but he says that there's a problem with ifo (he can't open the folder in this case) or the size of sectors of AOB files, and he suggest to increase the size of these sectors (the size of AOB don't change :confused: ), but it doesn't hold anymore on a dvd-5.:(
If I refuse, he doesn't open the concerned AOB and I can't burn the project with a missing AOB.:(
Another very strange fact is that Gear Pro could open without problem the AUDIO_TS folder of my non-protected dvd-audio.
Does it mean that Gear Pro cannot burn a protected dvd-audio ? And if I had created it myself with a dvd-audio authoring tool, why couldn't I burn it with Gear Pro Mastering Edition ?
And Disc Welder can't import AUDIO_TS, he only creates that from wav or mlp files.
In this situation, if I want to do exact copies, I see 2 solutions ;
-burn the iso clone (containing exact copies of protected VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS) on a dvd-9
-extract the AUDIO_TS of the iso (if it holds on a dvd-5) and recreate an Iso with Imgburn, to avoid Gear Pro that can't open it.
But I guess that normally, Imgburn could not create a dvd-audio project. The burning of an iso image created by Imgburn from an AUDIO_TS folder looks too simple.
On the link I gave 3 days ago (afterdawn forum), stephano1 says that it works, but I find it weird because if only a few programs can burn dvd-audio, i guess that they create a special structure and not only an AUDIO_TS burnt in UDF 1.02 mode.
Is there another program that can burn dvd-audio ?
I saw on a forum that DiscJuggler and DigiOnAudio could but were not recommended.

Finally, I would like to know how tu use 4C12bit. I found that example in the help file of DVDAexplorer ;
4C12bit -i %filepath% -l %path%/%filebase%.log
but I don't understand how to use it.:o
I tried with complete filepath but it doesn't work.
In wich directory do I have to put 4C12bit ?
What means this sign => %
Do I have to keep it or replace by > (or <) or anything else ?
So, what is the exact command line ? Not a simplified or shorter example, the real one.
Thanks a lot. ;)

[raquete]

Not a lot of answers here.:confused:

...In this situation, if I want to do exact copies, I see 2 solutions ;
-burn the iso clone (containing exact copies of protected VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS) on a dvd-9
-extract the AUDIO_TS of the iso (if it holds on a dvd-5) and recreate an Iso with Imgburn, to avoid Gear Pro that can't open it.
But I guess that normally, Imgburn could not create a dvd-audio project.
i never could copy Audio-ts folder that works on DVD-A player, only works in pc.

i'm not expert and i used DVDAExplorer 2 times only and a few days ago(see my posts here, are news).

after extract as waves with DVDAExplorer i re-author the Audio-ts folder(MLP from surcode)) and import the video-ts folder with CHROME.
if you do like that will works in your DVD-A player.

if you want another solution just wait for any advanced user, i'm newby in the process too.

[Music Fan]

Thanks for your help raquete ! ;)

But I won't have to do that because I have VERY good news : the trick of the "re-build" ISO by Imgburn works perfectly on my Pioneer dv-585 ! :eek: :) :cool:
I don't understand how it's possible but it works.
But you absolutely need a VIDEO_TS directory unless Imgburn won't be able to do an ISO with only the AUDIO_TS directory. So for him it's a dvd-video with an AUDIO_TS "bonus".
If there's not enough place to add the original VIDEO_TS directory because the original disc was a dvd-9 and the AUDIO_TS alone holds on a dvd-5, cut the VIDEO_TS with dvd-shrink in re-author mode or put what you want in it (a video of a few seconds will do the job), but Imgburn needs a VIDEO_TS directory.

And the whole process has been achieved with free programs : Dvd Fab, Winrar (to extract the Iso), and Imgburn. Isn't that beautiful ? :cool:

I did it with a protected dvd-audio (at least by CPPM, I don't know if it's watermarked) and I kept the CPPM protection (clone mode with Dvd Fab).
But it could work even if you copy in full disc mode (it removes CPPM protection). In this case, you need only two programs : Dvd Fab and Imgburn.
It will perhaps depends on the player and it could maybe not work at all with some players.

TRY THIS ! ;)


Don't forget to explain me how works 4C12bit if you can.:thanks:

[raquete]

cool,
first you was asking, now is teaching.
i will read about 4C12bit and if i find good answers i post.

[Music Fan]

first you was asking, now is teaching.
:D :cool:

i will read about 4C12bit and if i find good answers i post.
Thanks.
I searched with Google but 4C12bit doesn't look very known.

[raquete]

from DVD-Audio Explorer User Manual.html
"Use 4C12bit utility to check presence of audio watermark. This software contains part of CyberLink PowerDVD v7, you should have licence to run.
For more detailed information about 4C 12 Bit watermark see ..."
have a link to .pdf file that don't work(page not found) but you can start here:
http://www.4centity.com/
"4C Entity has developed a solution: Content Protection for Recordable Media (CPRM) and Content Protection for Pre-recorded Media (CPPM). The CPRM/CPPM specification defines a renewable cryptographic method for protecting entertainment content when recorded on removable and portable physical media including, but not limited to, DVD media and Flash memory."

i wish that help.

cheers.

[Music Fan]

Thanks but I had found it.
I have the program and the pdf but it just explains the principle of watermarking, not command lines.
Here is the link of the pdf ;
http://www.4centity.com/docs/4C_Spec.pdf

[Music Fan]

Someone explained me how should work this command line, here is an example ;
4C12bit -i G:\file.wav -l H:\dvda.log

I believe the path has to be as short as possible unless it won't work.

4C12bit has to be in Windows/system32 or you can put it in another directory but in this case you have to write te complete path, for example ;
F:\program\4C12bit.exe -i G:\file.wav -l H:\dvda.log

But I can't make it work yet although I have Power dvd 7 !:confused:
I get this message in the DOS window ;
"This software contains part of CyberLink PowerDVD v7, you should have licence to run."

But I have it ! It's the 7.2 BE Edition.
What do I misunderstand ?

[Music Fan]

Actually it works !:)
I believed that no log had been created because of this message in the Dos window but it was created !
Now I have to elucidate what means exactly this log.
If there are some "1" and not only "x", does it mean that the wav is wartermarked ?

[ToadMazter]

Hey all, thought you'd like to know there is another tool that we now can use for ripping DVD-A's! I was browsing the AVS Forum yesterday here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1160148) , and there is a new project at sourceforge for a Foobar2000 plugin that can play and rip/convert. Its called simply dvdadecoder (http://dvdadecoder.sourceforge.net/). I've been using it for a few hours, and it is really slick. Allows me to rip to a multichannel wav/flac/etc with one step.

Now, I just need to find a method do a CDDB lookup so I can automate the Artist/Album/Track info into the file names and metadata.

Enjoy!

[Midzuki]

Hey all, thought you'd like to know there is another tool that we now can use for ripping DVD-A's! I was browsing the AVS Forum yesterday here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1160148) , and there is a new project at sourceforge for a Foobar2000 plugin that can play and rip/convert. Its called simply dvdadecoder (http://dvdadecoder.sourceforge.net/). I've been using it for a few hours, and it is really slick. Allows me to rip to a multichannel wav/flac/etc with one step.

That's old news. :) Take a look at:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1302992#post1302992

Enjoy! :D

P.S.: Speaking of "old news", ...

is ShaPLAY (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=145660) "dead and buried" already? :confused:

[DragonQ]

If I have extracted some .wav files from a DVD-Audio (96kHz, 24-bit, 5.1) that will fit on a dual layered DVD, what software (preferably free) can I use to make a DVD-Video using these WAV files and a simple menu so that I can play them on any player? It will have to playback without gaps too.

[Music Fan]

You will have to compress the wav in Dolby Digital or Dts. BeSweet can do that for Dolby Digital. For Dts, there is Surcode Dts but it's not free ;
http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/products/surcode06.html
To make a simple authoring, there's Muxman, one of the versions is free ;
http://www.mpucoder.com/Muxman/versions.shtml

[DragonQ]

Well I already have the original DVD-A with a DTS track, I was hoping I could leave it uncompressed. Does DVD-Video not support 24-bit, 96kHz, 5.1 channel PCM?

[Midzuki]

DVD-lab PRO has a 30-day trial period --- it can easily create a disc containing "audio titles" only. dvdauthor is 100%-freeware, but I don't know whether any of its various GUIs supports all features available in the command-line environment.

[Music Fan]

Does DVD-Video not support 24-bit, 96kHz, 5.1 channel PCM?
No.
With that quality, you have to do a dvd-audio or an AVCHD, as I said here a few weeks ago. But you need a Blu-ray player to play it.

[Midzuki]

Does DVD-Video not support 24-bit, 96kHz, 5.1 channel PCM?

No.
With that quality, you have to do a dvd-audio or an AVCHD, as I said here a few weeks ago. But you need a Blu-ray player to play it.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD-Video#Audio_data says:

The official allowed formats for the audio tracks on a DVD Video are:

* PCM: 48 kHz or 96 kHz sampling rate, 16 bit or 24 bit L-PCM, 2 to 6 channels, up to 6144 kbit/s. N.B. 16-bit 48 kHz 8 channel PCM is allowed by the DVD-Video specification but is not well-supported by authoring applications or players.
* AC-3: 48 kHz sampling rate, 1 to 5.1 (6) channels, up to 448 kbit/s
* DTS: 48 kHz or 96 kHz sampling rate, 2 to 6.1 channels, Half Rate (768 kbit/s) or Full Rate (1536 kbit/s)
* MP2: 48 kHz sampling rate, 1 to 7.1 channels, up to 912 kbit/s

[Music Fan]

Yes, i have seen it several times, but i don't know any authoring program that accept LPCM 5.1 for dvd-video.
And even if you find one, no player will play that for a simple reason : most of dvd-video players have only 2 cinch output and you need 6 (for 5.1). And the SPDIF can't send LPCM in 5.1.
And to respect a norm, a format has to be played by all players compatible with this norm, so it's not really dvd-video compliant.

[Midzuki]

Yes, i have seen it several times, but i don't know any authoring program that accept LPCM 5.1 for dvd-video.
And even if you find one, no player will play that for a simple reason : most of dvd-video players have only 2 cinch output and you need 6 (for 5.1). And the SPDIF can't send LPCM in 5.1.
And to respect a norm, a format has to be played by all players compatible with this norm, so it's not really dvd-video compliant.

In general terms, I have to agree with you ---
notwithstanding, I really couldn't help noticing some blatant
contradictions in the paragraph above. :)

[Music Fan]

English is not my mother tongue, so it's not easy to explain a problem as I would do in my language.
Anyway, i belive that there is no contradiction. Because when I say that "most of dvd-video players have only 2 cinch output", it means that some dvd-video players (that only read dvd-video and neither dvd-audio nor Sacd) have 6 cinch output (for players with Dolby Digital and Dts decoder).
And as we need 6 cinch output on a player to hear the LPCM 5.1 (if there is no Hdmi and because we can't send it on SPDIF), we can consider that LPCM 5.1 is not dvd-video compliant, because most of players have not 6 cinch output but only 2.
And a dvd-video has to be played on all dvd-video players, even the old models with only 2 cinch output and without Hdmi.
In this situation, I really believe that this "official" characteristic should be considered as an error and should have been erased of the definitive documentation.

[jolson]

Simply stated: All DVD players that have a way to output uncompressed, multi-channel audio (usually 6 analogue, but Denon / Pioneer / Meridian have Denonlink / iLink / MHR for encrypted digital) are DVD-Audio players. The players that only play DVD-Video don't have these outputs.

[Music Fan]

Yes, but we have to specify to avoid confusion that even dvd-video players that have 6 channel output can't play uncompressed audio.
And to end my argument : let's imagine that we can author a dvd-video with Multichannel PCM : what happens if we play it on a dvd-video player only equipped with 2 cinch and a SPDIF output ? Do we lose 4 channels ? Is there a downmix ?
Actually, I believe the disc will be refused by the player because it's not conceived to manage multichannel PCM.
And in my opinion, the same problem will happen with a player equipped with multichannel output, because this 5.1 output is reserved for Dolby Digital and Dts.
Thus, a dvd player will only play uncompressed multichannel audio if it isn't only a dvd-video player but also a dvd-audio player, with the dvd-audio logo !
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/pio/pe/images/portal/cit_3430/309501365DVD%20Audio%20Video%20logo%20120.jpg

[jolson]

Well, that was a way to say about the same as me in three times the amount of words... :-)

[DragonQ]

Simply stated: All DVD players that have a way to output uncompressed, multi-channel audio (usually 6 analogue, but Denon / Pioneer / Meridian have Denonlink / iLink / MHR for encrypted digital) are DVD-Audio players. The players that only play DVD-Video don't have these outputs.

My parents' really old player from ~1998 has 6 channel analogue output and it definitely doesn't play DVD-Audio.

The actual LPCM 24-bit, 96kHz, 5.1 is in the DVD-Video specification so I don't know why it's such a crazy idea that some might be able to play it.

[Music Fan]

Well, that was a way to say about the same as me in three times the amount of words... :-)
:D
Yes, but i like to be complete.:p

[Music Fan]

The actual LPCM 24-bit, 96kHz, 5.1 is in the DVD-Video specification
Actually, I believe it was an idea evoked by the creators of the dvd-video format, but I have never seen any dvd-video player that can manage it, and I don't know any authoring program that can create it.
So I guess this idea was abandoned but leaved in the documentation, wich creates so much confusion for years on several forums.

[Music Fan]

And let's be logical : why would the dvd-audio have been invented if dvd-video could do the job ? Only to add the MLP compression ?
If someone managed to create and play a dvd-video with uncompressed 5.1 PCM, we would know that.

[Midzuki]

DragonQ wrote:

My parents' really old player from ~1998 has 6 channel analogue output and it definitely doesn't play DVD-Audio.

My 6-year-old LG has 6 analogue audio outputs (besides 2 analog outputs for plain/downmixed stereo, plus 2 SPDIF outputs), and definitely is not a DVD-Audio player either.

Music Fan asked:

And let's be logical : why would the dvd-audio have been invented if dvd-video could do the job ? Only to add the MLP compression ?

Yes. :)
And more importantly, the CPPM thing and the beloved watermarks as well. :D

[Music Fan]

Does it mean that you believe dvd-video can play PCM 5.1 if it's not protected by CPPM and Watermark ?

[Midzuki]

No, I mean you keep looking for "logic" where it does not exist.

[Music Fan]

I only try to explain the reasons why PCM 5.1 is not dvd-video compliant.
There are only two possibilities : it works or it does'nt.
I never found a topic where someone explained that he achieved that. It would be a well kept secret if it works, isn't it ?

[mpucoder]

You have to examine the DVD-Video spec carefully
48 kHz or 96 kHz sampling rate, 16 bit or 24 bit L-PCM, 2 to 6 channels, up to 6144 kbit
The problem is the bitrate, at 96K, 6 channel, 24-bit the bitrate is 13824Kbps, more than twice the upper limit for DVD-Video.
As for 6 channel LPCM, my old Sony supports it, and has 6 analog outputs. But newer players dropped the extra analog outputs. I used it to verify LPCM muxing in MuxMan.

Also, the spec allows up to 8 channels, and also supports 20-bit. While I was not able to confirm 7 or 8 channel (due to the lack of those outputs) all other allowable combinations were tested and work. Here is a table of allowable combinations (http://mpucoder.com/DVD/LimPcmAud.html)

[Music Fan]

Thanks, very interesting, but how many dvd-video player can read that ?
If they don't have 6 analog outputs, what happens ?
I'm astonished that we can put 8 channels because the receivers got only 6 channels when dvd was created.
And I've never seen dvd players with 8 analog output. Except some Blu-ray players (which also read dvd) like the Oppo BDP-83, but it arrived a long time after the dvd.

[Music Fan]

So, it was you ... the guy who kept well the secret ! :D
I'm happy to be wrong, it's rare. ;)

[mpucoder]

I've never seen a player with more than 6 analog outputs either. All audio can be transmitted to a receiver via Toslink (fiber optic) or SP/DIF provided it is either 48K sample rate or the disk is not CSS protected. DVD-Video also allows 7.1 mpeg, 6.1 DTS, and 7.1 SDDS, so 8 channels was definitely in the original design, although most receivers were limited to 5.1
If there are only 2 analog outputs they contain a downmix of the audio, this is true regardless of the encoding method.

[Music Fan]

Thanks, amazing news !
It's the first time that I see SDDS and dvd in the same sentence ! Does it mean that all dvd-video players can manage SDDS, even if they do a downmix ?
All audio can be transmitted to a receiver via Toslink (fiber optic) or SP/DIF provided it is either 48K sample rate or the disk is not CSS protected.
Even in 5.1 (if it's in 16/48) ?
I believe that we can send 24/96 PCM on SPDIF when it's in stereo. In some players, we can chose in the setup to let it in 96k or downsample it to 48k for the SPDIF output.

[mpucoder]

OK, here is where things can seem complicated. For LPCM audio the digital outputs contain the PCM audio unmodified, so if the player is in spec it should simply pass the data, be it 16, 20, or 24 bit, 48K or 96K.
For encoding methods where there is an onboard decoder (NTSC requires Dolby Digital, PAL requires Dolby Digital and MPEG, 2 channel minimum) players usually offer a choice of passing the data or passing decoded data as 48K PCM, possibly truncated to 20 or 16 bits, and usually only 2 channels (it all depends on the decoder).
For all other encoding methods (DTS and SDDS) the data is sent out unmodified.
Onboard DTS is rare, and SDDS non-existent. I don't know of any commercial DVD-Video disk that contains an SDDS track.

[Music Fan]

Thanks !
If we can send LPCM 5.1 in 16/48 (or even more) on SPDIF, it means that some receivers could recognize, decode and amplify it ?

[Midzuki]

OK, just for learning purposes, I've just created a 5.1 LPCM audio-only VIDEO_TS folder on a CD-RW with DVD-lab PRO, and tested it on my old LG DVD-player.
Sadly its firmware was designed to NOT SEE above 2 channels of uncompressed audio. :( Also, the 5.1 analog outputs work only for AC3 streams.

I'm afraid there are zero DVD-players that actually have the right to carry the «DVD-VIDEO logo». :eek:

[Music Fan]

That's why I was afraid that LPCM 5.1 was not dvd-video compliant. And also because we don't see anything in the setup and the manual of dvd-video players about that.
We can say that this format is not welcome by players.
But I have done a dvd-video with 5.1 48/16 LPCM and ... it works !
On my Pioneer dv-585, I have sound on all channels with the analog multichannel output (it has no Hdmi output).
On my Panasonic DMP-BD35 (which has no analog multichannel output), there is sound on the stereo cinch output, but I don't know if it's a downmix or only the front channels.
Same remark for SPDIF output on both players that send only stereo.
I have to continue my tests to know exactly if I lose some channels on stero output (cinch and SPDIF) or not. I will record my voice and will say different things in all channels to avoid doubt.
And no one of these players show the number of channels ; when I click on "display" or "audio", I see "PCM 48/16" but nor 2.0 neither 5.1, though I see it with ac3, Dts and Dvd-audio (LPCM and PPCM).
As my receiver doesn't have Hdmi input, I don't know what happens on Hdmi output (with my BD-35).

[Midzuki]

That's why I was afraid that LPCM 5.1 was not dvd-video compliant.

But multichannel LPCM does comply with the DVD-Video specs.
What determines the compliance is the DVD-Forum "booklet",
not the "statistic normality" of the standalone DVD-players available.

[Music Fan]

I know, I wrote "was". ;)
And I agree, but the situation would be so simpler if all players could read all formats included in the norm with which they are compatible.
Actually, I'm more disappointed by the lack of communication of the manufacturers than by some limitations.

[bassgoonist]

So maybe I missed something here, but how in the heck can I get PPCMRipper.

[Music Fan]

There is better than PPCMRipper now.
If you want to extract the tracks, you can use DVDAExplorer ;
http://rapidshare.com/files/269191887/DVDAExplorer2008.07.21.zip

If you want to make an exact copy, you can use DVDFab in clone mode ;
http://www.dvdfab.com/free.htm

And you can read the page 21 for some explanations about exact copies.;)

[Klagenberg]

Hi Music Fan

I have tried your exact copies, method.

I cant get it to work. How are you so sure that dvdFab keeps the CPPM encryption.
I made a copy of my DVD-Audio disc with clone mode, I checked the ISO and the disc with DVDdecrypter and it tells me that there is encrytion on the disc, but no encrytioen on the ISO.

Just to be sure, I burned the ISO, and played it on my DVD-Audio player, and as expected, it stopped playing after 30 sec. because of the watermarking.

[Music Fan]

Have you ticked "Copy original IFO files" ?
And the MKB file is still there ? If yes, I don't understand what does DvdFab in clone mode.
I guess that if you copy in full disc (which removes CPPM for sure), you have the same problem ?
I checked the ISO and the disc with DVDdecrypter
Are you sure that Dvddecrypter can read the AUDIO_TS part and that this message doesn't concern the VIDEO_TS part ?
Have you kept the VIDEO_TS part ?
Did you burn with IMGBurn ?

[Music Fan]

As evoked on this topic, there are maybe 3 kind of players ;
http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/751985
* Those who doesn't check watermarks at all, will play all clones and compilations. [Oppo]
* Players that always checks watermarks and refuses to play any watermarked copies. [Denon]
* Players that start checking for a .MKB file. If one exists, it doesn't check for watermarks and will play a clone. If there is no .MKB file, it checks for watermarks and will refuse to play that disc. [Samsung]

Also in this topic, an interesting trick that could work with some players ;
I copied and pasted a DVDAUDIO.MKB from a working copy of a different disc to the "Nightfly" AUDIO_TS folder, and created a new image. The modified "Nightfly" disc now passes watermark detection in my Samsung.

[Starmetter]

I am using dvd flick to burn a movie for me... I downloaded some flv 8min. movies and I got dvd flick to turn them into a dvd movie. The dvd is works good but no sound to them... what am I doing wrong? Is there a audio button I was to press....??? Help please

[Music Fan]

You are on the wrong topic ! We are talking about dvd-audio.

[Music Fan]

Hi Music Fan

I have tried your exact copies, method.

I cant get it to work. How are you so sure that dvdFab keeps the CPPM encryption.
I made a copy of my DVD-Audio disc with clone mode, I checked the ISO and the disc with DVDdecrypter and it tells me that there is encrytion on the disc, but no encrytioen on the ISO.

Just to be sure, I burned the ISO, and played it on my DVD-Audio player, and as expected, it stopped playing after 30 sec. because of the watermarking.
Did it finally work or not ?

Does anybody know how a player can make the difference between an original and a copy when it's copied in clone mode ?
Is it simply because he sees a burned dvd and not a pressed dvd ?

[Klagenberg]

No. It didn't work.
Burned the disc with Imgburn, ticked "Copy original IFO files", and yes MKB file was there too.
When I play the burned DVD-Audio, the player says copyright locked. That is because of the watermarking.
This means that DvdFab doesn't "copy" the CPPM copy protection, and it make perfectly sens, that you cant copy copy protection.

You are right about dvddecrypter, it only looks in the Video_TS folder.

[Music Fan]

This means that DvdFab doesn't "copy" the CPPM copy protection, and it make perfectly sens, that you cant copy copy protection.
You're wrong on that point, he can. And he also copies protection for the VIDEO_TS part in clone mode.
As I already said, there are probably 3 kind of players ;
* Those who doesn't check watermarks at all, will play all clones and compilations. [Oppo]
* Players that always checks watermarks and refuses to play any watermarked copies. [Denon]
* Players that start checking for a .MKB file. If one exists, it doesn't check for watermarks and will play a clone. If there is no .MKB file, it checks for watermarks and will refuse to play that disc. [Samsung]
... and yours doesn't accept copies, mine does (Pioneer dv-585 with a Mediatek MT1389 chipset).
What's your player ?

[Klagenberg]

* Players that always checks watermarks and refuses to play any watermarked copies. [Denon]


Yes I have a Denon, and the reason why it wont play my watermarked copies, is... because there is no copy protection.

If DVDFab copied CPPM for the VIDEO_TS folder, I should be able to see it with DVDDecrypter. But as i mentioned earlier, DVDDecrypter doesn't detect any protection on the clone image.

I have DVD-Audio discs without watermarking, and they play well on my Denon.


Does anybody know how a player can make the difference between an original and a copy when it's copied in clone mode ?
Is it simply because he sees a burned dvd and not a pressed dvd ?

The Player sees no difference, that's the whole point, with copy protection. The protection was supposed to prevent people from copying their DVDs, because the player cant see any difference.

[Ghitulescu]

The Player sees no difference, that's the whole point, with copy protection. The protection was supposed to prevent people from copying their DVDs, because the player cant see any difference.

That is plain false. Any drive knows what kind of disk is played (pressed or recorded). It's up to the firmware to decide on actions. The Philips optics even have different behaviours on this matter.

[Klagenberg]

OK, I rephrase my statement, when the player, starts playing the disc, it cant see any differences.

The reason why the optics behave different, is that the reflection from the recorded disc, is much worse then the pressed one.
The player increases the voltage to the laser, to be able to read it, it would do the same with a worn, scratched DVD.

But please correct me, if I am wrong.

[Music Fan]

If the MKB file is still in the copy made by DvdFab in clone mode, where is the CPPM protection on the original disc if you say that it's not on the copy ?
I believed that the MKB file was the CPPM protection.
Or there's maybe another explanation : the MKB file is the CPPM protection but DvdFab modify the MKB file and the protection is removed.
But it would be astonishing for a "clone mode", because in this case, what is the difference with the "Full Disc mode" which removes the MKB file ?

Anyway, as said above, some players don't care about the Watermark when there is a MKB file, so I guess that it means that the MKB file is not modified by DvdFab.
And it would mean that the only explanation for players like Denon is that they know they are reading a copy not because the MKB file is modified but because they see burned and not pressed dvd.
Or the CPPM is not in the MKB file.

[Music Fan]

If DVDFab copied CPPM for the VIDEO_TS folder, I should be able to see it with DVDDecrypter. But as i mentioned earlier, DVDDecrypter doesn't detect any protection on the clone image.
Forget DvdDecrypter for Dvd-audio, it's only done for dvd-video ! And the CPPM is not in the VIDEO_TS folder but in the AUDIO_TS folder.
These folders are not linked at all. The player sees one or the other depending of the configuration in the setup.

[evdberg]

Does anybody know whether the Oppo players (DV-981HD and BDP-83) check the watermark on DVD-Audio?

[Music Fan]

Yes !
I mean, yes I know. :D
At least for their dvd player, it's written above : the answer is no, they don't check the watermark, so you can read copies :)
For the BDP-83, I don't know.

[Ghitulescu]

OK, I rephrase my statement, when the player, starts playing the disc, it cant see any differences.

The reason why the optics behave different, is that the reflection from the recorded disc, is much worse then the pressed one.
The player increases the voltage to the laser, to be able to read it, it would do the same with a worn, scratched DVD.

But please correct me, if I am wrong.
I don't know about others, but Philips changes completely the reading modus on recordables and it's not due to lesser reflectance. I discovered this fact when I was surprised to see some old specifications of several players using the well known CDM-series optics. Reading recordables (at that time they were only CDRs) yielded about 3 dB less S/N ratio (I'll invent some numbers for academic purposes, CD-DA 92dB, CDR 88 dB). Newer specifications do not list CDRs anymore. Looking hard into this matter, since it makes no sense (once read, the digits are digits), I discovered that the Bitstream algorithm was changed for whatever reasons by Philips for recordables, to use less oversampling (it's a long explanation). I don't have that info at hand, it's somewhere archived at home.
Maybe it was so just in the past, and nowadays everything looks "identical".
I am absolutely sure (but of course that does not mean that it's also 100% true or valid in all cases) that the standalone drives know "more" a disk than their PC counterparts. It's up to their firmware if they passes this info to the system or not.

[Music Fan]

If the player knows that it's a copy only because it sees a burned and not a pressed dvd, I wonder if the firmware is hackable for that point.
Because I found that ;
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1113666#post1113666
the main part of MT1389 based players don't check watermarks, when Zoran & Panasonic do. Zoran's firmware is hackable about this.
I wonder what does exactly this hack, because I imagine 2 possibilities ;
-the player doesn't search the watermark anymore
-the player search the watermark, find it, but doesn't see difference between burned and pressed dvd anymore, so he believes that it's an original dvd and not a copy.

[evdberg]

@Music Fan,
I see multiple references that the Oppo DV-980H does not check the watermark, but is this also the case for the DV-981HD? Are you sure about this, for instance from your own experience?

[Ghitulescu]

If the player knows that it's a copy only because it sees a burned and not a pressed dvd,
There are original DVDs that are recorded and not pressed.
The first 2 generations of DVD-R were called "for authoring" and were used to check the project before sending it to replicators. Also there are legitimate users that burn their "memories" on DVDR/CDR (normal types). If the players would refuse to play them the whole story could become a nightmare.

[Klagenberg]

I understand what you say Ghitulescu, but must admit that I am somewhat surprised at what you write, but I have not set myself so thoroughly into how a player works, which you apparently have.

But for the matter of playing a copied DVD-Audio, with watermarking. The reason my Denon player stops playing the disc, is that there is no vaild Media ID on my copied disc.
The Media ID, is apparently used to decrypt the disc.

DVDFab cannon not make a copy of the Media ID, because it is located in the Burst Cutting Area.
I found this site http://www.geocities.com/columbiaisa/dvd_copy_protect.htm wich explains the CPRM and CPPM proction scheme. Scroll down to the bottom and read the subject on "CPRM technology"
CPRM is similar to CPPM in using a MKB. All media used with CPRM must include a BCA (Burst Cutting Area) which can be used to record a unique media ID as part of the manufacturing process. This will then prevent the data from being copied to another disc because it will not have the same unique media ID and therefore the data cannot be decrypted.

The easy solution for me would be. Buy a player that ignores the watermarking, if I want to play a copy with watermarking.

[Music Fan]

@Music Fan,
I see multiple references that the Oppo DV-980H does not check the watermark, but is this also the case for the DV-981HD? Are you sure about this, for instance from your own experience?
I can't certify it, but i never read that 981 couldn't do what the 980 does. I believe that they use the same (or a very similar) chipset, so I'm nearly sure that there is no problem with the 981.
If you want to buy one of these players and if you like to listen to Sacd, you have to know that the 980 allows to send Dsd on Hdmi (or Dsd converted in Pcm, you can choose) but the 981 doesn't (he always converts Dsd in Pcm).
http://www.oppodigital.com/dv980h/default.asp

The BDP-83 is very different and I'm not so sure that he can read copied Dvd-Audio.
As for the 980, the BDP-83 allows to send Dsd on Hdmi.
http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-83/

[Music Fan]

DVDFab cannon not make a copy of the Media ID, because it is located in the Burst Cutting Area.
Interesting discovery Klagenberg, I learnt something today.;)
Is it impossible to recreate a Media ID to dupe the player ?
As Ghitulescu said, some original Dvd are burned and not pressed, so I guess that we can burn (and not only press) a Media ID, isn't it ?

[Ghitulescu]

Interesting discovery Klagenberg, I learnt something today.;)
Is it impossible to recreate a Media ID to dupe the player ?
As Ghitulescu said, some original Dvd are burned and not pressed, so I guess that we can burn (and not only press) a Media ID, isn't it ?

Nope, you don't have access to that zone either.

[Music Fan]

You mean that the only way to have a Media ID is to press the disc ?
If yes, some people can forget their wish to read copied dvd-audio (depending of their player).

[gfxnow]

Is there a newer version of mlpdec.c than the one included in DVDAExplorer Beta3?

[deathlord]

Hi

About the linkin park "reanimation" dvd-audio: I had the same problem as reported by DeadlyFoez.
When trying to extract to wav using the "Merge groups" option only, it says the disc is encrypted. If I use the ignore option, it comes with the mlp error. Using the recover option, extraction starts but then hangs.

Now comes the surprinsing part:
When I do not use any options at all, the extraction immediately starts and finishes without error.
So the problems seems to be with the merge option!
Using the "Split groups" option also works, so this problem can be worked around easily: The resulting files can be merged e.g. in wavewizard.

With this info, maybe somebody can fix this little bug, though it is not a real issue anymore.

Many thanks to mommyman and everyone who contributed to this great program!

Cheers

[neil wilkes]

Hi all,

Firstly, great job on the beta! :) I do have a question though - why is it that when using the stereo downmix option the resulting file is so quiet? The loudest song on the album I am ripping barely hits -6db meaning there's wasted resolution there (and I have to turn my speakers up more than should be necessary).

I could do the downmix myself but it would take a long time using Adobe Audition or something. Is there a reason the downmix is so quiet or is it a mistake?

Sorry to take so long replying here, but only just saw this.
This will be because the downmix extraction will be using the built-in downmix - if available and encoded - or else creating it's own from presets. When we encode an MLP lossless file, adding a downmix is an optional thing. It increases the file size, and is a compromise between the surround mix & the necessity for stereo compatibility as not all DVDA players are surround capable or set up for surround so we cannot have a group with just pure 5.1 included.
The other solution is so-called "PGC Block" authoring, where there is a dedicated 5.1 stream imported followed by a dedicated stereo stream. The only other method is a downmix.
The main surround will probably be close to 0dBFS on L,R, possibly on C, and also possibly close on Ls/Rs.
Sum all these into 2 channels and you will clip, so attenuation is required. Recommended values are -6dB on L,R,Ls,Rs and -9dB on centre channels with LFE off.
The result will always sound quieter than the surround does.

[neil wilkes]

If the player knows that it's a copy only because it sees a burned and not a pressed dvd, I wonder if the firmware is hackable for that point.
Because I found that ;
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1113666#post1113666

I wonder what does exactly this hack, because I imagine 2 possibilities ;
-the player doesn't search the watermark anymore
-the player search the watermark, find it, but doesn't see difference between burned and pressed dvd anymore, so he believes that it's an original dvd and not a copy.

There is a HUGE issue with MT1389EE chipsets.
They tend to freeze solid on a 16:9 DVDA unless they are the later modded versions or firmware fixed versions.

[neil wilkes]

But multichannel LPCM does comply with the DVD-Video specs.
What determines the compliance is the DVD-Forum "booklet",
not the "statistic normality" of the standalone DVD-players available.

Only as an optional stream type, and it was never implemented in any players at all.
The DVD specs - like Blu Ray - have mandatory components and optional components. In DVD, DTS is optional, as is multichannel LPCM. One gets implemented, the other never did as DVDA was supposed to take over for pure audio discs.
The only mandatory LPCM stream on DVD-Video is 16/48 stereo - the rest is optional.

[Music Fan]

Only as an optional stream type, and it was never implemented in any players at all.
The DVD specs - like Blu Ray - have mandatory components and optional components. In DVD, DTS is optional, as is multichannel LPCM. One gets implemented, the other never did as DVDA was supposed to take over for pure audio discs.
The only mandatory LPCM stream on DVD-Video is 16/48 stereo - the rest is optional.
Yes, it's optional on discs, but you're wrong when you say that it was never implemented in any players at all, because it works on my Pioneer dv-610.
Muxman accept the multichannel waves (even 7.1). Here are (in purple) the accepted bitrates ;

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/7749/dvdvlpcmbitrate.jpg

To hear the multichannel LPCM on dvd-video, you need a player with analog multichannel output or Hdmi output. And of course a multichannel receiver (or several stereo receivers).
If the player has only a stereo analog output and a spdif output, I believe he will make a downmix, or maybe, he will keep only the 2 front channels and will ignore 4 channels on 6 (in 5.1).
The fact that we can't send multichannel LPCM on Spdif is probably more a restriction than a technical limitation, because we can send 2.0 LPCM in 96/24, which bitrate is 4608 kbps, the same than 5.1 LPCM in 16/48 !

[neil wilkes]

Hey, Music Fan

Sorry, but I think you will probably find your players analogue outputs are giving you either
1 - Internally (in the player) decoded Dolby Digital 5.1, or
2 - Internally generated 5.1 from an Lt/Rt Surround matrixed stream.
5.1 LPCM does not exist on any DVD-Video discs or players as a stream being decoded off the disc.

However, you are of course perfectly correct when you say that SP-DIF or TOSlink can carry the streams - of course it can.
TOSlink in ADAT mode can also carry - in D-MUX operation - 8 channels of 24/96 too (SP-DIF CoAxial cannot)

[Music Fan]

5.1 LPCM does not exist on any DVD-Video discs or players as a stream being decoded off the disc.
I believe you didn't read my message : it works, and I did it with Muxman !
Look again at the scheme above. I found it here ;
http://www.mpucoder.com/DVD/LimPcmAud.html

DVD-Video allows LPCM streams having 1 to 8 channels of 16, 20, or 24 bits per sample, 48K or 96K samples per second. However, due to the bitrate limitation of 6144Kbps not all combinations are possible

There was only a 5.1 LPCM track on the dvd I made ; I read it with my Pioneer dv-610 connected by HDMI to my receiver that recognized it as 5.1 LPCM in direct mode.
My Pioneer dv-610 sees the sound as LPCM when I click on display.
And I was not a downmix sent by my player and converted in 5.1 by my receiver, because it was in direct mode, and there was only 1 speaker playing at the same time.
Actually, I recorded my voice 6 times (in 6 mono waves) saying "front right", "center", "rear left", ...
To avoid to hear them all together, I simply chose 5 seconds for each channel in a 30 seconds wav, with 25 silent seconds. Then, with the 6 waves (30 seconds each) I made a single 5.1 wave with BeSweet (it also works with WaveWizard).
And I made a dvd-video with this single track with Muxman. And it was not a dvd-audio !
I can also read it with my Panasonic DMP-BD35 which doesn't play dvd-audio.
If you don't believe it, do it yourself !
The free version of Muxman is enough ;
http://www.mpucoder.com/Muxman/versions.shtml
But I guess other programs than Muxman are able to do that.

[raquete]

hi Music Fan.

i know others schemes like you posted above telling seamless possibilities.
for more that i tested, i never could get 5.1 LPCM from my 3 players, no one have HDMI or analog multichannel output, only 'Dolby digital 5.1 ch, decoder built in'.
i have 2 questions:
1- what player have 5.1 analog multichannel output? (i really don't know any)
2- what 'format' was chosed to burn the LPCM in the burning program? (ISO, DVD-VIDEO, UDF... ??? )

thanks.

[Midzuki]

raquete wrote:

1- what player have 5.1 analog multichannel output? (i really don't know any)
2- what 'format' was chosed to burn the LPCM in the burning program? (ISO, DVD-VIDEO, UDF... ??? )

1- LG 7352N, JVC XV-SA600BK && XV-SA602SL, etc etc etc

2- ISO 9660 ++ UDF 1.02, VIDEO_TS == "yes"

HTH.

[Music Fan]

i know others schemes like you posted above telling seamless possibilities.
This one has been done by mpucoder (I believe he is member on doom9, he is more able than me to answer some technical questions). Muxman is a good program and its website is not wacky.

for more that i tested, i never could get 5.1 LPCM from my 3 players, no one have HDMI or analog multichannel output, only 'Dolby digital 5.1 ch, decoder built in'.
If you have neither 5.1 analog output nor Hdmi, it's not a big surprise.
But a "5.1 built in decoder" generally means that there is a 5.1 analog output, it's weird.
Actually, all players have a built in 5.1 decoder, but they downmix the 5.1 to 2.0 for stereo output. But we usually don't call it a 5.1 built in decoder.

1- what player have 5.1 analog multichannel output? (i really don't know any)
A lot of players have 5.1 analog output. But Hdmi is easier (only 1 cable) if you have a receiver with Hdmi.
Blu-ray players are also good because they play dvd-video and they have Hdmi ouptut.

2- what 'format' was chosed to burn the LPCM in the burning program? (ISO, DVD-VIDEO, UDF... ??? )
You burn the dvd in dvd-video mode (with Nero for example, or with Imgburn, as Midzuki explained), it's a classical dvd-video architecture.
But you have to add at least an image (bmp) to accompany the sound. If you add a video, remember not to exceed 10 Mbps for the total bitrate (Tmpg Dvd Author advises 9848 kbps as a maximum), thus look at the scheme above to see the bitrate of the sound and to calculate the remaining bitrate for the video.
A video allows to do fast forward and rewind, which is not possible with a still image. I mean with dvd-video, because we can do fast forward and rewind on still image with dvd-audio.

[raquete]

clarifications about my 3 players:
all have 5.1 analogs outputs(RCA) and (more) stereo( RCA L&R) outputs, coaxial and toslink.
the 5.1 analogs only works only when playing AC3-5.1 because have 'Dolby digital 5.1 ch, decoder built in'.
if i play for example DTS-5.1, this 5.1 analogs don't work. is needed to use coaxial or toslink.
..no HDMI...i need a new player.

ah..a classical dvd-video architecture to burn?
ok then to burn dvd-video, first i need to author the multichannel wave ...
but what program can author 5.1 multichannel waves ?!? :confused:
muxman? (i know a long time and is cool but i never did multichannels waves to burn in dvd-video structure)

thanks.

edit: hey Mid,
thanks.
i only saw your post after my questions here.

[Music Fan]

the 5.1 analogs only works only when playing AC3-5.1 because have 'Dolby digital 5.1 ch, decoder built in'.
if i play for example DTS-5.1, this 5.1 analogs don't work.
This is normal, but it should work with 5.1 LPCM which doesn't need decoder.
Don't forget that ac3, Dts and all other compressed formats are decompressed in LPCM before the N/A conversion.
It means that all players handle 5.1 LPCM because they need it for the N/A conversion.
Actually, with 5.1 LPCM, there is even a step less compared to ac3 5.1 : no need to decompress ac3 in LPCM, it's already in LPCM.


but what program can author 5.1 multichannel waves ?!? :confused:
muxman?
Yes, you can try it with the free version.
If you don't have a 5.1 LPCM wave, you can test with ac3 or Dts 5.1 that you convert (decompress) in 16/48 5.1 LPCM (with BeSweet, Belight, eac3to, ...).
Then you import the multichannel wave in Muxman, but you have to add an image (bmp in 720.480 or 720.576) and enter its duration (the same than the wave). If he doesn't ask the duration, he asks the total number of frames (25 fps in PAL), I don't remember, you will see.

[Music Fan]

Anyway, I have to add that there is better than this way to put multichannel LPCM on dvd : AVCHD. But you need a Blu-ray player to play this.
AVCHD is better because it's easier to author (with MultiAVCHD) and you can put 96/24 5.1 LPCM ! It works on my Panasonic BD35.
I think we can even go up to 192/24 in 7.1 (not 100% certain).

[raquete]

This is normal, but it should work with 5.1 LPCM which doesn't need decoder.
Don't forget that ac3, Dts and all other compressed formats are decompressed in LPCM before the N/A conversion.
It means that all players handle 5.1 LPCM because they need it for the N/A conversion.
Actually, with 5.1 LPCM, there is even a step less compared to ac3 5.1 : no need to decompress ac3 in LPCM, it's already in LPCM. all right but think with me: seems redundance but follow...
this outputs works sending 5.1 LPCM only when have AC3 because the 'built in' AC3 decoder 'decode' the AC3 and send the LPCM to this analogs outputs. When another 'format' is in the AC3 'built in' decoder, the ouput of this decoder mess the signal because only decode AC3, not others formats.
it's a AC3 decoder buitl in only, not for others formats.(a pity).
others users had told me seamless like you some months ago but i got messeds results...
if i good remember seems that i have all channels summeds in the left channel only, i'm not sure now. but in the 3 players happens exactly the same.

Yes, you can try it with the free version.
If you don't have a 5.1 LPCM wave, you can test with ac3 or Dts 5.1 that you convert (decompress) in 16/48 5.1 LPCM (with BeSweet, Belight, eac3to, ...).
Then you import the multichannel wave in Muxman, but you have to add an image (bmp in 720.480 or 720.576) and enter its duration (the same than the wave). If he doesn't ask the duration, he asks the total number of frames (25 fps in PAL), I don't remember, you will see. ok, i know and use muxman in 'guifordvdauthor', cool program for stereo LPCM and AC3 musics videos and used in the past encoding video, muxman is very nice.
i can do 'my own' 5.1 upmix for tests.

Anyway, I have to add that there is better than this way to put multichannel LPCM on dvd : AVCHD. But you need a Blu-ray player to play this.
AVCHD is better because it's easier to author (with MultiAVCHD) and you can put 96/24 5.1 LPCM ! It works on my Panasonic BD35.
I think we can even go up to 192/24 in 7.1 (not 100% certain). seems cool but no Blu-Ray around. :-(
i need to work inside my boreds limitations.

thank you Music Fan!

[Music Fan]

this outputs works sending 5.1 LPCM only when have AC3 because the 'built in' AC3 decoder 'decode' the AC3 and send the LPCM to this analogs outputs. When another 'format' is in the AC3 'built in' decoder, the ouput of this decoder mess the signal because only decode AC3, not others formats.
How can you be sure of that if you didn't test it ?
And why do my player accept it ? Its manual doesn't mention it, but it works anyway.

[raquete]

How can you be sure of that if you didn't test it ?
And why do my player accept it ? Its manual doesn't mention it, but it works anyway.
i'm not completely sure if works, see my old post here: others users had told me seamless like you some months ago but i got messeds results...
if i good remember seems that i have all channels summeds in the left channel only, i'm not sure now. but in the 3 players happens exactly the same.
but i don't remember in what format was burned the multichannels...maybe as ISO, i'm not sure. :confused:
i need to try with muxman and burn as you told to hear what happens.
your player is capable because is new and mine 3 are olders, more than 3 to 5 years old.
features between players change from label to label and model to model.
the manual of each of my players tell about this 5.1 analogs outputs working with AC3 only, how to use and plug, no deep details and nothing about other format.
i will do a new test using muxman and maybe i have better luck.

cheers!

[spacekiller]

Hi guys, I studied these very long discussion along the last days, because I got some DVD-Audios last. I own an ONKYO DV-S757 player for about 10 years, but never had a DVD-A to tryout these function (lol).
At first I want to say sorry, if my english is not correct and fully understandable, because I'm a German.
Now to my experiences with these DVD-A's.
I have four DVD-A's for my experiements: LA Women - Doors; A Night At The Opera - Queen; Greendale - Neil Young; Shaman - Santana - every disc seems to be very different from the other.
I ripped them with DVDFab 7 - burned the Doors and put it in the ONKYO - it plays but watermark hits back after 30s and the player stops (as well known here). I tried to rip with clone-mode, with and without original IFO - no difference. All DVD's played in a DVD-Video-only player (HDD-recorder), but only the DVD-Section of course.
Because I read about different players in this thread, that don't care about watermarks, my ONKYO is about 10 years old and a BluRay-player also would be a nice thing, I decided to buy a new one. Now I own an OPPO BDP 83 - and so I have good news for all DVD-A fans - the player has NO watermark dedection!!! And it is a fine DVD- and BluRay-player too.
The Doors-DVD-A copies work very well. Now i did the same with the GREENDALE - clone-mode - and nothing happens! ROOT MENU appears in the display but no picture or sound. Now i tried out the rips with ShaPLAY, the Doors played well, but the GREENDALE not. ShaPLAY scans all the tracks for a second or so, but no track was played.
Now I tried another method to rip it with DVDFab - Full Disk with VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS option. After this I loaded them into NERO 7 and burned an image, mounted it with DEAMON and tried to play with ShaPLAY again. It works very fine! On this rip no DVDAUDIO.MKB is present! I burned it on DVD and it works well in the OPPO. Both of the other DVD-A's work with the DVDAUDIO.MKB present (clone-mode) like the Doors. Very strange this all.
I will keep trying on when I get more DVD-A's.
I hope, that some of my experiences are helpful for you.
At last a question from me, maybe someone have an advice. I've also tried to use my Creative Software DVD-A player for
playback the DVD-A's on PC. But this damned prog didn't work at all - says an obscure CTRTheme.dll is missing (but this file is, where it have to be; update doesn't help) - everybody around knowing this problem?

[Music Fan]

Are you sure it's CTRTheme.dll and not CTTheme.dll ?
Look at this topic ;
http://forums.creative.com/t5/General/Help-Fatal-Error/m-p/91750

[Midzuki]

@ spacekiller:

so you tried ShaPLAY, but you didn't try Foobar2000 ??? :confused:

[spacekiller]

Are you sure it's CTRTheme.dll and not CTTheme.dll ?
Look at this topic ;
http://forums.creative.com/t5/General/Help-Fatal-Error/m-p/91750

Yes, I mean the CTTheme.dll (wrong keystroke :devil:).

Thanks for this advice, but I know this thread, doesn't help.

[spacekiller]

@ spacekiller:

so you tried ShaPLAY, but you didn't try Foobar2000 ??? :confused:

Not yet. Now I downloaded it, but I see nothing to play a DVD-A (maybe I'm blind :)).
In ShaPLAY I open an IFO and the play starts if the rip is ok. It's very simple, isn't it?

[Midzuki]

Now I downloaded it, but I see nothing to play a DVD-A (maybe I'm blind :)).

You're not blind of course,
you're just exceedingly uninformed. :)

Download the required plugin from:

http://sourceforge.net/projects/dvdadecoder/

See the discussion @:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1160148

Have fun!

In ShaPLAY I open an IFO and the play starts if the rip is ok. It's very simple, isn't it?

ShaPLAY hasn't been updated since the middle of 2009.
This wouldn't be a problem, IF the creation of Shadson
didn't desperately need some major tweaks and fixes.

[spacekiller]

You're not blind of course,
you're just exceedingly uninformed. :)

Puh..., what luck, I'm not blind.:cool:

I've got it and it works well! :thanks:

[shawnyeung]

Awesome! Great news!

[rica]

Guys, i need a working link to DVDAExplorer?

[setarip_old]

@rica

Hi!

Have you searched for "DVD Audio Explorer" instead?

[Midzuki]

Guys, i need a working link to DVDAExplorer?

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/DVD-Audio_Explorer

[rica]

Thanks guys :thanks:

[setarip_old]

Thanks guys

Glad to hear you found it ;>}

[dude2012]

Does anyone have a copy and would be willing to share? Can't find it anywhere, and although I understand that DVDAE incorporates it, I've read in some places that the standalone utility can work better with some discs. Am having problems backing up a Bach Organ disc.

[Brazil2]

Does anyone have a copy and would be willing to share? Can't find it anywhere, and although I understand that DVDAE incorporates it, I've read in some places that the standalone utility can work better with some discs. Am having problems backing up a Bach Organ disc.
Tool from this post:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1027108#post1027108

Download:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=47325824214796483761

[dude2012]

Tool from this post:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1027108#post1027108

Download:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=47325824214796483761


Muito obrigado!