AC3 and DTS encoders question

[Chainmax]

First things first: I did start doing a search, but there are way too many threads about AC3 and DTS in here, so instead of spending several hours sifting through all of them I figured that posting a new thread would be more practical. Taking that into account, here are my questions:

1) Which freeware AC3 encoder do you use and why?

2) Which comercial software AC3 encoder is supposed to be the best one?

3) Do freeware DTS encoders exist? If so, are there any moderately priced DVD authoring programs that can create a DVD with DTS streams?

[daphy]

you gave up searchin´ to fast: :o

click me! (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=68300)

[Chainmax]

I should know better by now. I'm sorry :o.

There are, however, two questions that the FAQ doesn't answer, which are wether a DVD with DTS sound can be created (once you make the DTS track using SurCode) and which are considered to be the best commercial AC3 encoders.

[mugz8391]

It appears I was in the middle typing and editing my 'new thread' just as you were posting yours.

I just spent most of my free time this past week 'researching' the issue and I did not find any freeware dts encoders, all I found are listed here:

http://www.dtsonline.com/pro-audio/software.php

I tried SurCode DTS encoder just for kicks, it uses 6 PCM wav files for input and did a reasonable job.

Here is a free tool with a DVD authoring mode that supports DTS:

http://www.videohelp.com/tools?tool=ReJig


DVDLab Pro is 'reasonably?' priced and supports DTS soundtracks.

As far as which application I think is best for transcoding to AC3, just read my post.

As for the 'best' purchaseware AC3 encoder/transcoder, the only application Sony has 'currently available' that encodes AC3 5.1 surround sound is Sony Vegas+DVD. I called their support line and none of their 'audio only' packages (Vegas, Sound Forge, ACID) encode surround sound, they encode Dolby Stereo only. Don't buy Maven3D, it's broken and their tech support does not answer emails, and they closed thier forum.

There were older progams like 'Soft Encode' that did the job, but they were appearantly bought out by Sony... You might find a copy somewhere..., like maybe a vendor that still has an old copy on the shelf, you'd really have to look around though.

[Chainmax]

Thanks for the info. I'm surprised that these programs can't output 5.1, given their cost. Are you absolutely sure about that? I made a google search for SonicFoundry Acid plugin and found this 2003 review (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FGL/is_7_19/ai_102557530) which says that a 5.1 AC3 encoder plugin was announced, so it should be available by now :confused:.

I now have two completely unrelated questions now. I know that the common bitrate for DTS streams is 768 or 1536kbps, but I assume that's for 5.1 streams. If that's the case, what would be the common bitrate for plain stereo streams? Also, what would be some good places to start searching for this older Soft Encode? I tried some googleing but found nothing much aside from suggestions of grabbing it off P2P. Granted, it's no longer being sold, but I don't think warezing it would be legal.

[mugz8391]

SonicFoundry was bought out by Sony, and the latest version of ACID by Sony has AC3 stereo but not 5.1 surround - here is the home page with the toll free number, call them yourself :)

http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/products/default.asp

[Matthew]

Chainmax, Minnetonka sells a 5.1 AC3 encoder so there's no searching required to get that (just a lot of money). http://www.surcode.com

[mugz8391]

heh! thats why I said to get the Sony product, you get the AC3 5.1 encoder with an entire DVD authoring suite for about $300 less :)

[daphy]

Thanks for the info. I'm surprised that these programs can't output 5.1, given their cost. Are you absolutely sure about that? I made a google search for SonicFoundry Acid plugin and found this 2003 review (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FGL/is_7_19/ai_102557530) which says that a 5.1 AC3 encoder plugin was announced, so it should be available by now :confused:.

AFAIK it´s now part of Sonic´s Scenarist
Chainmax, Minnetonka sells a 5.1 AC3 encoder so there's no searching required to get that (just a lot of money).
Try HeadAC3 (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=20728&highlight=headac) -> freeware
DVDLab Pro is 'reasonably?' priced and supports DTS soundtracks.
IFOEDIT and Rejig, too!

[Chainmax]

If I had money to spare, I think I'd follow mugz8391's suggestion and buy Vegas+DVD, being as it's the cheapest option and includes DVD authoring software. Since I'm pretty much broke, I guess I'll have to make do with DVDLab/IFOEdit/Rejig and BeSweet/HeadAC3/SoftEncode (the latter if I find it somewhere).
I just gave up on DTS because I found out that DTS DVD specs require 768kbps minimum bitrate and that's just overkill for a stereo source IMO, something like 352kbps would be much more reasonable. By the way, does anyone really uses DTS at 1536kbps? Why not just use uncompressed 48Khz 16bit WAV then since it has the same bitrate and is not lossy?

[Matthew]

SoftEncode (the latter if I find it somewhere).

heh, I imagine that would be pretty expensive to buy too.

Why not just use uncompressed 48Khz 16bit WAV then since it has the same bitrate and is not lossy?

Only 2 channels versus 6.1, thats why :)

AFAIK it´s now part of Sonic´s Scenarist

Sonic Foundry (whose desktop software products are now owned by Sony) is a different company from Sonic Solutions.

Also, just to add, one of the benefits of SurCode or Soft Encode over a Sony/SF plugin is command-line support. e.g. I can use BeSweet+softencode to go from NTSC 5.1 AC3 -> PAL 5.1 AC3 on a bunch of AC3 files in one step, if I so choose.

[Paulcat]

I wonder...is Soft Encode considered "Abandonware'?

[WhipHubley]

For a long time I struggled to get good results converting AC3 audio from a 23.976 fps AVI file for use in a 25 fps PAL DVD (when attempting to do an AVI to DVD conversion)

It was the last hurdle in my quest to perfect this type of conversion (I'm quite into doing it for some reason) until someone recommended Sonic Foundry Soft Encode.

Unfortunately it isn't available any more, but believe me it's out there, and really doesn't take long to find.

It's absolutely brilliant, produces great results (it includes a proper Dolby Digital Encoder) but does take a while to run. It just takes patience, really.

Have fun!

P.S. practically all freeware AC3 encoders use ac3enc which - although an admirable attempt - produces extremely poor results compared to commercial products such as Soft Encode. Don't settle for less, IMHO.

[Chainmax]

Why not just use uncompressed 48Khz 16bit WAV then since it has the same bitrate and is not lossy?


Only 2 channels versus 6.1, thats why


Why not creating an x.1 lossless audio standard then? That would be higher quality than an illogical lossy-but-with-uncompressed-bitrate standard while probably taking less than 60% the size.

Paulcat, WhipHubley: I seriously doubt that SoftEncode is abandonware or legal to download. I'm going to mail Sonic Foundry and ask them what is the legal status of Soft Encode.

WhipHubley: instead of converting the AC3 from FILM to PAL framerate, you should just mux the AC3 into the 23,976 steam and use DGPulldown (http://neuron2.net/dgpulldown/dgpulldown.html) on it. You'll not only avoid tinkering with the audio but have better video quality due to less frames to encode.

[Chainmax]

Nevermind, I'm not going to fill out a form to ask a single question.

[Matthew]

Why not creating an x.1 lossless audio standard then? That would be higher quality than an illogical lossy-but-with-uncompressed-bitrate standard while probably taking less than 60% the size.

Errr, 2 channel wav = 6 channel DTS. So imagine the size of a multichannel wav ;)

[Chainmax]

I didn't think about that and it does invalidate my argument about an uncompressed x.1 stream (since it might end up 3x as big as 1536kbps DTS). It does not, however, invalidate the idea of a losslessly compressed x.1 stream. Monkey's Audio or FLAC can already compress a stream to >=60% its original size and they are freeware. I'm sure a commercial, industry-wide standard effort could create a lossless compression scheme for x.1 streams that would be worth using, especially now that the move to HD-DVD has begun.

[ursamtl]

Multichannel FLAC supposedly exists, but it doesn't seem to be used anywhere yet. There's also Microsoft Windows Media Pro lossless multichannel.

[Mug Funky]

multichannel FLAC has existed for ages. the encoder has supported it forever, too (the CLI at least, and any GUIs that use it). the only problem is there's no channel decorrelation for more than 2 channels in FLAC yet, so compression will be suboptimal.

By the way, does anyone really uses DTS at 1536kbps? Why not just use uncompressed 48Khz 16bit WAV then since it has the same bitrate and is not lossy?
most DVDs that come out of hong kong will have high-rate DTS (often DTS-ES as well, with 6.1 channels).

btw, are there any software encoders for DTS-ES? as far as i know the only thing that can do it is a DTS CAE-5 hardware encoder, and they cost elephant bucks and are almost completely useless to boot (we have endless problems with the CAE-4 here - the one that pre-dates DTS-ES but still costs upwards of AUD $20,000).

AFAIK there's protools plugins that do 5.1 ac3. also there's liba52 which is pretty good so long as you stick to a safe bitrate (>=224). i hate ac3. in fact, DTS is pretty dodgy too unless it's in high-rate (768 doesn't cut it at all).

[Soulhunter]

I didn't think about that and it does invalidate my argument about an uncompressed x.1 stream (since it might end up 3x as big as 1536kbps DTS). It does not, however, invalidate the idea of a losslessly compressed x.1 stream. Monkey's Audio or FLAC can already compress a stream to >=60% its original size and they are freeware. I'm sure a commercial, industry-wide standard effort could create a lossless compression scheme for x.1 streams that would be worth using, especially now that the move to HD-DVD has begun.

Blu-Ray will support the new DTS++ which comes with a lossless mode...

And HD-DVDs will support Dolbys "MLP-Lossless" (as used on Audio-DVDs) !!!

Bye

[Erupter]

Errr, 2 channel wav = 6 channel DTS. So imagine the size of a multichannel wav ;)

The decoded 6ch wav usually amount to 3x the original DTS.
At least on my harddrives...

[Mug Funky]

i'm thinking for a 754kbps (is that the number?) DTS you'll be getting 6x the original file. the CAE-4 here has 2 buttons on it for bitrate - a "754" one and a "1509" one. but after encoding some funky stuff happens, and i have no idea what the actual multiplexed data rate is for it (except that it's way too much of a space hog - you could fit a half-hour DVD extra in the same space).

the DTS stream is actually an LPCM with garbage in it, essentially. it was designed that way so it could be carried on regular audio CDs and output ditigally to a DTS aware decoder.

[Chainmax]

Blu-Ray will support the new DTS++ which comes with a lossless mode...

And HD-DVDs will support Dolbys "MLP-Lossless" (as used on Audio-DVDs) !!!

Bye

That's good to hear. For now, I guess I'll make do with stereo AC3 @ 256kbps when making DVDs out of TV/VHS captures. I'm going to see if Sonic Foundry Soft Encode can be bought for cheap.

[lucindrea]

adobe's audition 1.5 will output a 6chan wma ( of course this is nothing close to what would be used in dvd ) and it takes vst plugins , i see some possablities their for a ac3/dts plugin ... but i havent heard of anyone working on one.

[WhipHubley]

WhipHubley: instead of converting the AC3 from FILM to PAL framerate, you should just mux the AC3 into the 23,976 steam and use DGPulldown (http://neuron2.net/dgpulldown/dgpulldown.html) on it. You'll not only avoid tinkering with the audio but have better video quality due to less frames to encode.

pulldown? isn't that used for convertions from 23.976 to 29.970? I certainly don't want that. I'm interested in creating PAL 25 FPS 720x576 DVD's. none of that NTSC funny stuff :-)

[Wilbert]

isn't that used for convertions from 23.976 to 29.970?
I suggest you read the documentation of DGPulldown.

[Chainmax]

pulldown? isn't that used for convertions from 23.976 to 29.970?

Yes, pulldown used to mean that, but thanks to DGPulldown pretty much any convertion can be done, especially FILM/PAL/NTSC framerate conversions.

[WhipHubley]

Yes, pulldown used to mean that, but thanks to DGPulldown pretty much any convertion can be done, especially FILM/PAL/NTSC framerate conversions.

oh right, I didn't realise that. I'll take a look.

thanks.

[pascalwil]

heh, I imagine that would be pretty expensive to buy too.



Only 2 channels versus 6.1, thats why :)



Sonic Foundry (whose desktop software products are now owned by Sony) is a different company from Sonic Solutions.

Also, just to add, one of the benefits of SurCode or Soft Encode over a Sony/SF plugin is command-line support. e.g. I can use BeSweet+softencode to go from NTSC 5.1 AC3 -> PAL 5.1 AC3 on a bunch of AC3 files in one step, if I so choose.

How to use SurCode DVD DTS Encoder in Command Line mode outside of BeSweet to batch convert 6 wav files to DTSWAV?
Any example of the script to use? Thanks.

Cheers

[tebasuna51]

How to use SurCode DVD DTS Encoder in Command Line mode outside of BeSweet to batch convert 6 wav files to DTSWAV?
Any example of the script to use?

Please stop ask the same question (at least 4 times) and reopen old threads (this is 4 year old).

Please read the rules (http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm) specially the:
8) No cross posting...

[pascalwil]

Please stop ask the same question (at least 4 times) and reopen old threads (this is 4 year old).

Please read the rules (http://forum.doom9.org/forum-rules.htm) specially the:
8) No cross posting...

OK. I gotcha.

I won't be asking the same question again.
Speaking of old threads, would you be kind enough to direct me to the right place if you know where to look for the answer. I wasn't registered 4 years ago. I'm kind of new in this forum and I've missed the discussions of the past.

Thanks for your support.

Cheers

[tebasuna51]

Obviously I don't know the answer. I think the method is put in windows registry all the parameters and input files, and after execute Surcode but I don't know how.
BTW, I'm not interested in DTS format (I think AC3 is better) and/or commercial software.