Problem with NTSC DVDs in AutoGK

[Hassan]

Hello to all

I have a very basic problem with AutoGK since day one.
Since some months I try to backup a two DVD set on 3CDs
As complete noob I of course read the classic guide for AGK first.
My first backups without any advanced or hidden options turned out very poor and pixly in video quality. Eventhough 1 cd of the 3Cd-Backup has a runtime for aproximatly 1:20 which is I think a good length to put on one cd with excelent quality.
Ok my backups were poor and I started experimenting with the hidden and advanced options for many times. The results turned a bit better with 448 fixed width and 128 VBR Audio.
But still the videoquali was very pixly.
I almost had given it up until I saw that the DVD was NTSC and this was maybe the reason for the pixly backups. (Yeah stupid I know but that’s me) So I read many post here in the forums and reconsidered some hidden options in regard of NTSC. But all I found like itu resize method or forcing deinterlacing process didn’t quite push up my results.
I really don’t know what it is but I just can’t experiment and combinate those settings anymore.
If somebody could say me how to make my rips look good I would be so grateful.

Here is the log of the last backup I did

[10/06/2005 09:53:14] AutoGK 2.08b
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] OS: WinXP (5.1.2600).2
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Job started.
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Input dir: D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Output file: D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.avi
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Output codec: XviD
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Audio1: Unknown language AC3 2ch
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Subtitles: none
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Format: .AVI
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Target size: 2100Mb
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Custom resolution settings: minimum width of 512 pixels
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Custom audio settings: VBR MP3 with average bitrate: 128Kbps
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Started encoding.
[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Demuxing and indexing.
[10/06/2005 10:03:49] Processing file: D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_PGC_01_1.VOB
[10/06/2005 10:03:49] Processing file: D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\VTS_01_PGC_01_2.VOB
[10/06/2005 10:03:49] Source aspect ratio: 4:3
[10/06/2005 10:03:49] Source resolution: 720x480
[10/06/2005 10:03:49] Found NTSC source.
[10/06/2005 10:03:50] Analyzing source.
[10/06/2005 10:18:49] Source has percentage of interlacing in motion areas: 96.33
[10/06/2005 10:18:49] Source has percentage of telecined patterns: 0.37
[10/06/2005 10:18:49] Source has percentage of progressive patterns: 1.40
[10/06/2005 10:18:49] Source has percentage of interlaced patterns: 98.23
[10/06/2005 10:18:49] Source is considered to be interlaced.
[10/06/2005 10:18:49] Output will contain 410417 frames
[10/06/2005 10:18:49] Decoding audio.
[10/06/2005 10:24:26] Normalizing audio.
[10/06/2005 10:31:21] Encoding audio.
[10/06/2005 10:53:28] Forcing ITU resize method.
[10/06/2005 10:53:28] Audio1 size: 205,018,968 bytes (195.52 Mb)
[10/06/2005 10:53:28] Overhead: 16,416,640 bytes (15.66 Mb)
[10/06/2005 10:53:28] Video size: 1,980,573,992 bytes (1888.82 Mb)
[10/06/2005 10:53:28] Running compressibility test.
[10/06/2005 10:53:28] Writing the following script to D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\agk_tmp\VIDEO_TS_comptest.avs
===========================================================
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\DGMPGDec\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\filters\autocrop.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\filters\RemoveGrain.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\filters\kerneldeint.dll")

movie = mpeg2source("D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\agk_tmp\VIDEO_TS.d2v")
cropclip = autocrop(movie,mode=0,wmultof=4,hmultof=4,samples=10,aspect=0,threshold=34,samplestartframe=0,leftadd=0,rightadd=0,topadd=0,bottomadd=0)
fixed_aspect = 0.911680911680912
c_width = width(cropclip)
c_height = round(height(cropclip) / fixed_aspect)
input_par = float(c_width)/float(c_height)
out_width = 704
out_height = round(float(out_width) / input_par)
hmod = out_height - (floor(out_height / 16 ) * 16)
out_height = (hmod > 4) ? (out_height + (16 - hmod)) : (out_height - hmod)
new_aspect = (float(out_width) / float(out_height)) / fixed_aspect
KernelDeInt(movie,order=0,sharp=true)
autocrop(mode=0,wmultof=4,hmultof=4,samples=10,aspect=new_aspect,threshold=34,samplestartframe=0,leftadd=0,rightadd=0,topadd=0,bottomadd=0)
LanczosResize(out_width,out_height)
RemoveGrain(mode=2)
SelectRangeEvery(300,15)
===========================================================
[10/06/2005 11:32:58] Duration was: 39 minutes 29 seconds
[10/06/2005 11:32:58] Speed was: 8.66 fps.
[10/06/2005 11:32:59] Compressibility percentage is: 11.98
[10/06/2005 11:32:59] Using softer matrix.
[10/06/2005 11:32:59] Using softer resizer.
[10/06/2005 11:32:59] Chosen resolution is: 512x384 ( AR: 1.33 )
[10/06/2005 11:32:59] Predicted comptest value is: 31.29
[10/06/2005 11:32:59] Running first pass.
[10/06/2005 11:32:59] Writing the following script to D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\agk_tmp\VIDEO_TS_movie.avs
===========================================================
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\DGMPGDec\DGDecode.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\filters\autocrop.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\filters\RemoveGrain.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\PROGRA~1\AutoGK\filters\kerneldeint.dll")

movie = mpeg2source("D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\agk_tmp\VIDEO_TS.d2v")
cropclip = autocrop(movie,mode=0,wmultof=4,hmultof=4,samples=10,aspect=0,threshold=34,samplestartframe=0,leftadd=0,rightadd=0,topadd=0,bottomadd=0)
fixed_aspect = 0.911680911680912
c_width = width(cropclip)
c_height = round(height(cropclip) / fixed_aspect)
input_par = float(c_width)/float(c_height)
out_width = 512
out_height = round(float(out_width) / input_par)
hmod = out_height - (floor(out_height / 16 ) * 16)
out_height = (hmod > 4) ? (out_height + (16 - hmod)) : (out_height - hmod)
new_aspect = (float(out_width) / float(out_height)) / fixed_aspect
KernelDeInt(movie,order=0,sharp=true)
autocrop(mode=0,wmultof=4,hmultof=4,samples=10,aspect=new_aspect,threshold=34,samplestartframe=0,leftadd=0,rightadd=0,topadd=0,bottomadd=0)
BicubicResize(out_width,out_height,0,0.5)
RemoveGrain(mode=2)
===========================================================
[10/06/2005 17:35:52] Duration was: 6 hours 2 minutes 51 seconds
[10/06/2005 17:35:53] Speed was: 18.85 fps.
[10/06/2005 17:35:54] Expected quality of first pass size: 28.29
[10/06/2005 17:35:54] Running second pass.
[11/06/2005 00:17:03] Duration was: 6 hours 41 minutes 8 seconds
[11/06/2005 00:17:04] Speed was: 17.05 fps.
[11/06/2005 00:17:08] Splitting video into: D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.cd1.avi
[11/06/2005 00:19:21] Splitting video into: D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.cd2.avi
[11/06/2005 00:21:48] Splitting video into: D:\DVD\VIDEO_TS\VIDEO_TS.cd3.avi
[11/06/2005 00:23:53] Job finished. Total time: 14 hours 30 minutes 39 seconds

[len0x]

Well, for almost 4 hours 4:3 30 fps interlaced sources (tv material?) you get "Expected quality of first pass size: 28.29" which waay too low for acceptable quality (which is at least 50%). Some serious manual filtering required if you want to go for 3CDs. Ideally you should go for 4-5CDs (rememver NTSC material requires 25% more bitrate comparing to FILM sources just for a start plus you have interlacing that doesn't help).

[Hassan]

Ah ok thanks.
So this means with the DVDs I'm using I can't make a good 3CD rip with Autogk.
And if you say serious manual filtering I think I can forget the idea of a good 3CD backup.

So interlacing I can turn off which means I get the best result (for my case) possible when I don't use any hidden options ?

[len0x]

Deinterlacing is done automatically - you can't switch it on/off. I meant that usually interlaced material compresses worse than normal (due to artifacts introduced during deinterlacing process).

[jggimi]

[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Custom resolution settings: minimum width of 512 pixelsIf you free AGK to make its own resolution decisions, you might obtain usable bits/pixels*frames valuations .... though .... [10/06/2005 10:18:49] Output will contain 410417 framesThat's a whopping 3 hours, 48 minutes, 14.26 seconds of content. Source aspect ratio: 4:3A 4:3 aspect ratio has many more pixels per frame than your typical widescreen movie, and this is an extremely long content to try to fit into a relatively small amount of space.

If it were me, I'd go to 4 or 5 CDs, if not 6, and eliminate the minimum width restriction.

[Hassan]

[10/06/2005 09:53:14] Custom resolution settings: minimum width of 512 pixelsIf you free AGK to make its own resolution decisions, you might obtain usable bits/pixels*frames valuations .... though ....
For three CDs I tried with Auto Width of course also but it came out to be 288 x ???. I thought that was too bad und also looked way worse than some tries with fixed width.

But I'll try your advice making a 4 CD Backup first with auto Width and 128 VBR and no other settings.
But I'm afraid that again the result will be weird like with a 288 x ??? width.
If it is possible to say: What would be the best fixed/minimum/maximum width
for a source like mine and are there some hidden options which could improve the result a little bit?

Thanks so far

PS: Or is there another program on the net that can handle sources like that better. Even if it is tens times harder than AutoGK I could at least try it especially with all the great guides here I'm willed to learn it.

[manono]

Hi-

Do you have a DVD burner? If it were I, I think I'd set it for a custom size of 4475 MB and fill a complete DVDR with it (similar to jggimi's suggestion of 6 CDs). You have some real problems with that source. As stated, you have 25% more frames to compress compared to a movie. It's interlaced and has to be deinterlaced for AVI, and that by itself will limit how good it's going to look when it's finished. And it's so difficult to compress, based on the length and the compress test results, that maybe it uses handheld cameras, or is all bright and flashy, or is pretty noisy to begin with. I don't know. I can understand you not wanting to use a 288 width, and I also think that 512 is the minimum acceptable width. But for that width, to have it look acceptable, you're going to have to make the file size much larger.

Or is there another program on the net that can handle sources like that better?

You can use AutoGK's big brother, the fully featured Gordian Knot. It has a full range of denoisers and smoothers available that will help to make it more compressible. If you decide to go that route, you might experiment with a small portion of the full video, trying out the different denoisers to see which one(s) you like.

[Hassan]

As the road for using AGK ends for me here I think I'll follow your advice with using GK.
First I was afraid because it's so advanced but I think I have no other choice because everything larger than 3 or 4 CD is impossible for me.
But you have good guides here and I'll use them.

Thanks for your help

[Hassan]

Just one last question if anybody knows the most efficient backuptool for my DVD. It doesn't matter in what format VCD SVCD Xvid or whatever. My DVD player is quite "openminded" in that aspect.
Because I want to take the best out of the source but at the same time I want to stay in the 3(4) CD Range.
If GK is already the most efficient solution for this certain DVD to convert to 3 or 4 CDs I apologize for double posting.