Problems with a 29.970 fps film (interlacing)

[castellanos]

Sorry if this is a common question but I made some searching and I did not find exactly what I'm looking for.
I'm tring to backup a 29.970 fps film 16:9 to an avi and I wanted to do it with Dr.DivX. I create the dv2 file with DGMPGDec and made my self the Avisynth script to apply the subs too, but I got the film (I cheked with BS player) with that disturbing lines, typic interlacing and I don't know why... never happened with 25 fps film.
So, a few questions:
In this case, do I need to set DGMPGDec on "Force Film" in order to get those lines out? (In the playback with DGMPGDec I noticed that with "Force Film" the problem is not there anymore)
If not, How can I make an Avisynth script with a deinterlacing filter?
Some ideas?
Greetings! :)

[Guest]

Look in the D2V file and examine the lines with a lot of numbers. Ignore the first 6 numbers on each line. Then look at the last digit of each number. If that cycles through the numbers 0,1,2,3, then use Force Film. Here's an example (this one starts with 2 but that's OK because it cycles through that pattern):

800 1 0 425746432 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1
800 1 0 426510336 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1
800 1 0 427233280 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1
800 1 0 428070912 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1
800 1 0 428740608 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1
800 1 0 429477888 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1
800 1 0 430262272 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1
800 1 0 430977024 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1
800 1 0 431724544 0 0 32 73 90 f1 b2 e3 b0 f1 a2 f3 b0 e1 ff

Another way is to look at the Film % at the bottom of the file. If it's greater than 95%, use Force Film.

If that's too confusing, then just try Force Film and if it produces clean non-jerky output with no combing, then use it!

Finally, read up about telecining and IVTC. Then you'll know why the combing is present.

[castellanos]

That is what I got:

Stream_Type=1
iDCT_Algorithm=5 (1:MMX 2:SSEMMX 3:FPU 4:REF 5:SSE2MMX)
YUVRGB_Scale=1 (0:TVScale 1:PCScale)
Luminance_Filter=0,0 (Gamma, Offset)
Clipping=0,0,0,0 (ClipLeft, ClipRight, ClipTop, ClipBottom)
Aspect_Ratio=16:9
Picture_Size=720x480
Field_Operation=0 (0:None 1:ForcedFILM 2:RawFrames)
Frame_Rate=29970
Location=0,0,4,2DFC0

c00 6 0 2048 1 1 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 36864 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1
800 6 0 49152 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2
c00 6 0 129024 1 1 d3 f0 e1
c00 6 0 219136 1 1 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 563200 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 968704 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 1382400 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 e2
800 6 0 1628160 1 1 73 70 d1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 e3
c00 6 0 1929216 1 1 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 2277376 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 e3
c00 6 0 2609152 1 1 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 2951168 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 3346432 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 3747840 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 4151296 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 4548608 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 4929536 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 5335040 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 5728256 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 6129664 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 6526976 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 6926336 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 7327744 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 7725056 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 8124416 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 8529920 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 8927232 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 9328640 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 9728000 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 10135552 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 10528768 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 10936320 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 11329536 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 11743232 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 12132352 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 12552192 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 12951552 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 13355008 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 13758464 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 14149632 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 14551040 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 14942208 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 15337472 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 f1 e2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 15720448 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 15931392 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 e1
c00 6 0 16250880 1 1 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 16574464 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 16904192 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 16979968 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17045504 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1
800 6 0 17059840 1 1 72 73 d0 f1 f2 e3 f0 e1
c00 6 0 17129472 1 1 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17192960 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17260544 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17354752 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17473536 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17596416 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17723392 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17840128 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 17979392 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 18104320 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 18251776 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 18454528 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 18626560 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 18759680 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 18898944 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 19030016 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 19173376 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 e3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 19314688 1 1 70 71 d2 e3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 19486720 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 19726336 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 19798016 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 19865600 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 19935232 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20006912 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20074496 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20144128 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20217856 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20289536 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20377600 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20498432 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20674560 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 20908032 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 21172224 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 21489664 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 21852160 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 22235136 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 22624256 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 23023616 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 23427072 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3
800 6 0 23851008 1 1 70 71 d2 f3 f0 e1 f2 f3 e0 f1 f2 e3

I think I can apply "Force Film" :confused:
EDIT: Yes, definetelly I can apply Force FILM... Could you give me some links about telecining and how to do it trough Avisynth?
Thanks!

[Guest]

Originally posted by castellanos
Could you give me some links about telecining and how to do it through Avisynth? First go to www.100fps.com and learn all about video. Then read this:

http://www.doom9.org/ivtc-tut.htm

After that, you'll know why you don't want to do telecining, but rather, inverse telecining (IVTC). You'll also be able to ask properly formed questions that actually make sense. :)

In your spare time, read the other Doom9 guides.

[castellanos]

Originally posted by neuron2
You'll also be able to ask properly formed questions that actually make sense.

Well... now I realize why people is visiting this forum less and less, see here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95076), and actually I respect this forum a lot (You can read there my post).
I'm really sorry neuron2, I know you are a moderator and I know that you know about video much more than me (exactly as I know about music much more than you) but as you already know, I can not get born knowing everything, I have to learn, exactly as you did... making that kind of coments, is not going to help anyone...I thought you moderators should know.
Thanks anyway.
Greetings!

[ppera2]

Originally posted by castellanos
...
Yes, definetelly I can apply Force FILM... Could you give me some links about telecining and how to do it trough Avisynth?
Thanks!

Well, from this is not clear is castellanos want to learn about telecining, or want to use Inverse Telecine in AVISynth...

In any case I agree that Neuron2 reacted not well, maybe it's too hot there... (Here is).

There is no direct telecine or inverse telecine command in AVS, but with some digging in manual everybody can find how to make it.

[Guest]

I gave the OP two excellent links as well as great technical advice that cost me quite some time to assemble. Then I make a remark clearly qualified with a smilie and suddenly I'm an ogre?!

Fine, I'll never respond to another post of yours, castellanos. Your thin skin can brave the world unchallenged.

[zilog jones]

That's a bit harsh :(

Being ciritical like what you originally said is not usually a good thing to do on the internet - it's too hard to tell your tone, emoticon or no emoticon. Video terminoligy like telecine is always confusing for people new to it, and even moreso for people who don't speak English as a primary language. This is a forum for AviSynth, not for criticising people's English...

[castellanos]

Thanks ppera and zilog jones!
I am sorry if I was not clear enough, suddenly my english is not good enough... ok, I can deal with that! I do my best.
About telecining: I clear the problem using "Force FILM", in this case it worked, but, in order to learn a little bit more, I wanted to know if I could fix that problem trough Avisynth using some filters... I'm reading about it, I just wanted to see a clear example, an aviscript or something to see that concrete.
If somebody want to help me with some examples, I would apreciate it.
About certain reactions: It is difficult to believe this...
4) Be nice to each other and respect the moderator. Profanity and insults will not be tolerated. If you have a problem with another member turn to the respective moderator and if the moderator can't help you send a private message to Doom9.
This is one of my favorite rules of this forum, and it should work in two directions: member --> moderator / moderator --> member.
We are not talking about insults here, but "Be nice" is missing sometimes, whatever I am, an idiot or not, asking a stupid question, I just want to learn. If I asked something wrong or confusing, please, help me to do it right next time, tell me what's wrong... but don't hit me like that.
Originally posted by neuron2
Fine, I'll never respond to another post of yours, castellanos. Your thin skin can brave the world unchallenged.
This is the latest answer I ever expected from a moderator.
I hope some others moderators could see this.
Greetings! :)

[unskinnyboy]

@castellanos, Take it easy. While for every person like you who might have actually attempted to do something of your own and then found hurdles, we have a 100 newbies who post here only because they cannot do any research for themselves and just want a 'quick and dirty' solution. neuron2 has been thru this a hundred times before and that probably explains his reaction, I might have done the same maybe :). Doesn't mean he is bad, remember we are able to even talk about IVTC only because of him and his tools.

Reg: your question, you should not be doing Telecining, but Inverse Telecining (IVTC), and how to do that in AVISynth? You have to read up on 'Telecide' and 'Decimate' and its parameters contained inside neuron2's Decomb package. Download the package from here (http://www.avisynth.org/warpenterprises/) and read the DecombReferenceManual.html enclosed within.

Happy Decombing! :)

[ppera2]

I can just add, that if someone is tired from always same beginners questions - better that not respond. Better nothing than negativ tone.
Nobody expects from Neuron2 that reply on hunderts of such posts weekly.

[guada 2]

"This statement demands qualifying".
But i approve of his conduct(Neuron2).

NOTE:
I try to speak the language as well as possible this time.
Thank you "my friend": Modo NIC ;)

[manono]

Hi castellanos-

Over time I've read many of your posts, and I find them always friendly, cheerful, and helpful. I think in this case you've run into two problems that, combined, have left you perplexed. One is an incomplete understanding of the subject. It's a difficult subject even for us in NTSC land, and it must be doubly so for someone from a PAL country, this whole business of telecine, Inverse Telecine, ForceFILM, etc. The other is not having a fine grasp of the nuances of the English language, or of neuron2's sometimes gruff manner. He has "spoken" to me in a similar way on several occasions, and if you know him at all, it doesn't bother you at all. That's just the way he is, and we love him for it, and wouldn't want him to be any other way. Some Americans are like that (Aussies also), and we sometimes run across this kind of person, we know how to deal with it, and understand that no personal insults are intended. Since you've been supported by two others in print so far, and maybe many others who have read this thread, then I can see how this sort of thing could be a problem for the non-native English speakers among us (the majority, I think). Americans can often be very blunt in their speech, without meaning to be insulting.

Think of it the other way around. We are used to speaking our mind, and we let you know where we stand on an issue. This is usually considered to be a virtue in our country. Sometimes when dealing with people that value politeness above all (Japanese people, for example), it's sometimes hard to get a straight answer ("Did he just tell me yes, or no?"). This kind of behavior sometimes drives us right up the wall. Minor conflicts of this kind can be expected when a forum such as this one draws people from all over the world. But these cultural differences are also part of what makes Doom9 a special place. We all have to give a little, be a bit flexible, in order to get along as well as we (usually) do.

Now for your question. In simple terms, movies are 24fps. DVDs have to output 29.97fps (actually 59.94 fields per second) for NTSC television sets. To go from 24fps to 29.97fps the film is slowed down a very little bit, and duplicate fields are output to make up the difference from 23.976fps to 29.97fps. Usually 24fps is stored on the DVD and flags (software, sort of) are set that tell the DVD player which fields to duplicate, and in what order, for output. Sometimes these duplicate fields are actually encoded onto the DVD (wasting precious bits in the process). This process of adding the dupe fields is the telecine, or 3:2 Pulldown (or usually more correctly, 2:3 Pulldown). When making an AVI from that DVD, your job is to get rid of those dupe fields, and return it to 23.976fps. If the movie was encoded properly, and the flags were set properly, you can just ForceFILM to do it. You can ForceFILM when you see that 0 1 2 3 0 1 2 3 in the D2V, or at the bottom, when the FILM percentage is very high. ForceFILM can be thought of as a weak kind of IVTC. Otherwise, if it's a movie, as opposed to being interlaced material, and there either are no RFF/TFF flags (it'll be all 2s or 0s), or is a mix of FILM and video (low FILM percentage), you use a full strength IVTC, such as Decomb's Telecide/Decimate combination, or SmartDecimate, or one of the others.

This is a gross simplification, Nor does it take into account such things as hybrids, bad PAL to NTSC conversions, field blending from 23.96fps to 29.97fps, and other not all that rare kinds of material. And please do read the links that neuron2 provided. And as unskinnyboy said, read the docs that neuron2 wrote for his own filters. He writes the best documents and help files in the business, and it's all for us.

Do you want a link, castellanos? Here, this should keep you busy for a week or 2 :):

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

And ppera2, you've already made your point. Please don't push your luck.

[castellanos]

Wow!!! Thank you very much manono! That will keep me busy for more than a week, I am sure. Also thank you unskinnyboy for that link too. I need time to learn now! :rolleyes:
About other things: I can deal with that and I have no resentment... but I can not speak about this subject anymore, I've already recieved a privat message from neuron2, that if I say something more he will strike me...
But anyway, Thanks neuron2 for the great tool and links.
Nothing more to say.
Thanks a lot for the help!
Greetings! :)

EDIT: @manono: May it's better if you close this thread, I don't want prolems for anybody. I think this is the first time a member want to close his own thread :rolleyes:

[manono]

Well, it's not up to me whether or not the thread is closed. My own opinion is if it stays on the topic you started, castellanos, it can remain open (easy for me to say, since I've already made my own off-topic post). Maybe discussions about the way things are run around here can go in that thread in the General Discussion Forum about anybody spending less time here.