TMPGenc 3.0 XPress frame rate problem with XviD source

[JNavas]

Note: This report pertains to TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress, not TMPGEnc or TMPGEnc Plus

When attempting to encode 23.976 fps XviD sources (as verified by GSpot 2.21) into DVD-compatible MPEG2, TMPGenc 3.0 XPress incorrectly detects the source frame rate as 30 fps, resulting in jerky MPEG2 output (particularly noticeable during slow pans).

These XviD sources play perfectly in a variety of players, encode properly in NeroVision Express 3, and TMPGEnc 2.5 Plus gets the correct frame rate.

There appears to be no way to override the incorrectly detected source frame rate in TMPGenc 3.0 XPress, and there doesn't appear to be any reasonable work-around.

This problem exists in version 3.0.4.24 (original release) and version 3.1.5.82 (latest version as of this writing) of TMPGenc 3.0 XPress.

Codecs: XviD-1.0.3-20122004 _Final Release_
XviD-1.1.0-Beta2-04042005 _Beta Release_
Platform: Windows XP SP2 on a 2 GHz Mobile Pentium 4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress does get the correct source frame rate when the XviD AVI file is frameserved from VirtualDub, and can preview the frameserved file, but refuses to encode it. Others have reported that same problem with frameserving in TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress, and have also reported that Pegasys won't support frameserving. So that seems to be a dead end.

Another suggested work-around is to: create a Project with the XviD AVI as input in TMPGEnc Plus 2.524 (which has a different Project File format from prior versions) and Save the Project File; enable TMPGEnc Project File Reader 2.524 in TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress (Preferences -> Input plug-in settings); and then Add the Project File as a source (not Open as a Project) in TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress. That does get the source frame rate correct, but results in other weirdness (e.g., incorrect pixel format) that results in incorrect output (e.g., wrong frame size) with no audio. So that appears to be another dead end.

Yet another sugggested work-around is to use the 3ivx codec instead of the XviD codec. That does indeed solve the problem of incorrect source frame rate, and Video Mode is also corrected (3:2 pulldown playback), but the resulting MPEG2 video from TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress is still jerky. (Output from NeroVision Express 3 is much smoother.) Thus TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress apparently has a compatibility problem with the XviD codec (probably a TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress problem given that other applications see the correct source frame rate), and doesn't do a terribly good job of frame rate conversion in any event (as reported by others).

[Paulcat]

TMPGEnc Xpress takes your 23.976 fps video and duplicates frames to give you a 29.97 fps final product. This is why playback is jerky, you are seeing some frames twice.

If you can select 23.976 as your output framerate in Xpress then you can use DGPulldown (www.neuron2.net) to change your flags to give you a 29.97 fps file for your dvd authoring.

If you can't...well you can do what I did and that's abandon XPress and go back to TMPGEnc (Plus). The only feature of XPress that I miss is the ability to join multiple avi's and create one mpg..

[geoffman]

Originally posted by JNavas
Note: This report pertains to TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress, not TMPGEnc or TMPGEnc Plus

There appears to be no way to override the incorrectly detected source frame rate in TMPGenc 3.0 XPress, and there doesn't appear to be any reasonable work-around.

I've had this problem many times, to get around it I simply feed TMPGenc an Avisynth .avs script and TEMPGenc will pick up the correct framerate.

[JNavas]

Originally posted by geoffman
I've had this problem many times, to get around it I simply feed TMPGenc an Avisynth .avs script and TEMPGenc will pick up the correct framerate.
Are you referring to TEMPGenc Plus (not relevant to this thread) or TMPGenc 3.0 XPress (the subject of this thread)? :rolleyes: As I wrote, while frameserving does work with TEMPGenc Plus, it doesn't work with TMPGenc 3.0 XPress. That's frameserving from VirtualDub, but I'm assuming it's the same from AviSynth -- no?

The point of TMPGenc 3.0 XPress with the AC-3 Plugin as compared to TMPGenc Plus is simple one-step encoding of DVD-compliant MPEG2 video with AC-3 audio. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear to be able to do a good job of that from these XviD sources. :(

[JNavas]

Originally posted by Paulcat
TMPGEnc Xpress takes your 23.976 fps video and duplicates frames to give you a 29.97 fps final product. This is why playback is jerky, you are seeing some frames twice.

If you can select 23.976 as your output framerate in Xpress then you can use DGPulldown (www.neuron2.net) to change your flags to give you a 29.97 fps file for your dvd authoring.

If you can't...well you can do what I did and that's abandon XPress and go back to TMPGEnc (Plus). The only feature of XPress that I miss is the ability to join multiple avi's and create one mpg..
As I wrote, part of the problem is that TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress gets the source (input) frame rate wrong.

Regardless, pulldown also works by duplicating frames -- output would only be smoother if TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress is doing a crude/crappy job of frame rate conversion because the process is essentially the same, just frame duplication in playback with pulldown as compared to frame duplication in encoding. Frame interpolation during encoding can be smoother than frame duplication (pulldown or encoding) if done properly, but that takes serious sophistication and computing power.

The point of TMPGenc 3.0 XPress with the AC-3 Plugin is simple one-step encoding of DVD-compliant MPEG2 video with AC-3 audio. That's the feature I would miss, and why I don't do as you suggest and use TMPGenc Plus instead.

[JNavas]

Originally posted by JNavas
Note: This report pertains to TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress, not TMPGEnc or TMPGEnc Plus

When attempting to encode 23.976 fps XviD sources (as verified by GSpot 2.21) into DVD-compatible MPEG2, TMPGenc 3.0 XPress incorrectly detects the source frame rate as 30 fps, resulting in jerky MPEG2 output (particularly noticeable during slow pans).

These XviD sources play perfectly in a variety of players, encode properly in NeroVision Express 3, and TMPGEnc 2.5 Plus gets the correct frame rate.

There appears to be no way to override the incorrectly detected source frame rate in TMPGenc 3.0 XPress, and there doesn't appear to be any reasonable work-around.

This problem exists in version 3.0.4.24 (original release) and version 3.1.5.82 (latest version as of this writing) of TMPGenc 3.0 XPress.

Codecs: XviD-1.0.3-20122004 _Final Release_
XviD-1.1.0-Beta2-04042005 _Beta Release_
Platform: Windows XP SP2 on a 2 GHz Mobile Pentium 4

UPDATE: This problem can be solved with AviSynth! Use AviSynth (2.5.5) to frameserve the XviD source into TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress, and TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress then does get the correct source frame rate and will then properly encode DVD-compliant MPEG2 and AC-3 audio output that will be smooth instead of jerky!

[geoffman]

Originally posted by JNavas
UPDATE: This problem can be solved with AviSynth! Use AviSynth (2.5.5) to frameserve the XviD source into TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress, and TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress then does get the correct source frame rate and will then properly encode DVD-compliant MPEG2 and AC-3 audio output that will be smooth instead of jerky!

Which is exactly what I said. :p

Glad you worked it out.

[Guest]

Originally posted by JNavas
Regardless, pulldown also works by duplicating frames Pulldown does not duplicate frames. It duplicates fields. It's an important difference with significant implications for "smoothness" of the video.

[JNavas]

Originally posted by geoffman
Which is exactly what I said. :p
Glad you worked it out. Unfortunately, it's not only a hassle, but also problematic, because AviSynth can't handle the MP3 audio in these files, apparently due to the lack of a suitable VFW codec -- see my thread "ACM failed to suggest a compatible PCM format (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94760)". I can work around that problem by first decompressing the audio stream, but that's even more of a hassle. Worse, this kind of frameserving hasn't proved to be reliable -- all too often TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress aborts when starting the 2nd pass of VBR encoding, complaining that the .AVS "is not a supported file format" (even though the 1st pass worked). So I don't think it's a good solution. Here's :p right back at you. :)

[JNavas]

Originally posted by neuron2
Pulldown does not duplicate frames. It duplicates fields. It's an important difference with significant implications for "smoothness" of the video.[sigh] I was a bit sloppy in my terminology, but the fact remains that the TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress jerkiness problem occurs even with pulldown, as stated in my original post:
Yet another sugggested work-around is to use the 3ivx codec instead of the XviD codec. That does indeed solve the problem of incorrect source frame rate, and Video Mode is also corrected (3:2 pulldown playback), but the resulting MPEG2 video from TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress is still jerky. (Output from NeroVision Express 3 is much smoother.) Thus TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress apparently has a compatibility problem with the XviD codec (probably a TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress problem given that other applications see the correct source frame rate), and doesn't do a terribly good job of frame rate conversion in any event (as reported by others).

[geoffman]

Originally posted by JNavas
Unfortunately, it's not only a hassle, but also problematic, because AviSynth can't handle the MP3 audio in these files, apparently due to the lack of a suitable VFW codec

And where did you did you mention anything about audio in your original problem, hmmmm? ;)

In all honesty I have never noted this problem, as I always, for various reasons demux audio streams before I utilise video in TMPGenc (any version), regardless of whether it's fed through Avisynth or not, as I have noted on occasion TMPGenc (any version), at least on my machine, has problems picking up the length of video correctly if it is already muxed with audio.

Y'all have a nice day! :)

[JNavas]

Originally posted by geoffman
And where did you did you mention anything about audio in your original problem, hmmmm? ;)It should have been clear that audio was a consideration (and probably would have been had you read it just a bit more carefully ;)) -- I wrote:
Originally posted by JNavas
... with no audio. So that appears to be another dead end. [emphasis added]Then in a later post I wrote:Originally posted by JNavas
The point of TMPGenc 3.0 XPress with the AC-3 Plugin as compared to TMPGenc Plus is simple one-step encoding of DVD-compliant MPEG2 video with AC-3 audio. [emphasis added]Clear now? Moving on...Originally posted by geoffman
In all honesty I have never noted this problem, as I always, for various reasons demux audio streams before I utilise video in TMPGenc (any version), regardless of whether it's fed through Avisynth or not, as I have noted on occasion TMPGenc (any version), at least on my machine, has problems picking up the length of video correctly if it is already muxed with audio.For what it's worth I have never seen such a problem. And that doesn't address the frame rate problem, the point of this thread.

If I were going to demux, then I wouldn't use TMPGenc (any version) in any event, since there are much faster video encoders with equal or better quality and no frame rate issues. Demuxing audio not only is much more hassle, but also increases the need to manually correct audio sync (in my experience at least), which can be tedious and painful, especially when the sync error varies over the length of the video.

Thus I usually stick to the work-around of first decompressing the audio into another AVI with the video. But even that is something I'd like to avoid. I'd just like software to work properly, the point of this thread, which I don't think is an unreasonable expectation. ;)
Originally posted by geoffman
Y'all have a nice day! :)You too. :rolleyes:

Now back to the subject of this thread, the TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress frame rate problem ... anyone (else)?

[Guest]

Originally posted by JNavas
I'd just like software to work properly, the point of this thread, which I don't think is an unreasonable expectation. Have you contacted TMPGenc about this? What is their response?

[JNavas]

Originally posted by neuron2
Have you contacted TMPGenc about this? What is their response?I posted it to the TMPGEnc Net BBS as a Bug Report (with the same subject), but I got nothing from TMPGEnc or Pegasys, just a few comments from users. Others have contacted Pegasys directly, and reported that the response wasn't helpful. :(

[Guest]

If the product doesn't work and they won't fix it, then you should consider using a different product. :) Beating a dead horse here isn't going to solve anything.

You can also go back to the 2.5 version.

[JNavas]

Originally posted by neuron2
If the product doesn't work and they won't fix it, then you should consider using a different product. :)Well doh. :rolleyes: Except there doesn't appear to be any good alternative all-in-one DVD-compliant MPEG2+AC3 encoder. (NeroVision Express 3 comes close, but has only minimal audio filtering capabilities.) Do you know of any? ;)Originally posted by neuron2
Beating a dead horse here isn't going to solve anything.Who made this a dead horse?! :eek: Originally posted by neuron2
You can also go back to the 2.5 version. No integrated AC-3. You did read the whole thread, right? ;)

Now back to the subject of this thread, the TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress frame rate problem ... anyone?

[Guest]

Originally posted by JNavas
Who made this a dead horse?! The thread is over a week old, nobody has a solution although workarounds were suggested, and the manufacturer cannot or will not help. That sounds pretty dead to me. What are you hoping to hear, that someone has reverse engineered the software and made a fix for you? :)

[JNavas]

Originally posted by neuron2
The thread is over a week old, nobody has a solution although workarounds were suggested, and the manufacturer cannot or will not help. That sounds pretty dead to me. What are you hoping to hear, that someone has reverse engineered the software and made a fix for you? :) :rolleyes: I'm hoping to hear something more constructive and on point, that hopefully makes progress, but at least provides more insight.

Since this thread started there has been significant progress. Most recently, I've found a different MP3 ACM codec (in the Nimo Codec Pack (http://nimo.titanesk.com/modules/freecontent/index.php?id=1)) that makes it possible for AviSynth (http://www.avisynth.org/) (which I use to frameserve into TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress (http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/te3xp.html) with the AC-3 Plug-in (http://www.pegasys-inc.com/en/product/tsp_ac3.html) as a work-around to the TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress frame rate problem with XviD sources) to handle the MP3 audio in these AVI files without having to first decompress the audio into a new AVI (along with the video). I see no reason to think this is the end of the trail, your (dismissive and defeatist) attitude notwithstanding.

To be clear, I sincerely mean no offense, but I find it hard to understand why you would spend so much time in this thread on negative comments -- when you don't have something constructive and on point to say, why not invest your presumably valuable time somewhere else? ;)

[SeeMoreDigital]

JNavas,

How ever funny you think your comments are, I assure you they are not!

It will do you no favours on this forum to communicate in the way you have, to such a highly respected forum member "and moderator" as neuron2...

[JNavas]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
JNavas,
How ever funny you think your comments are, I assure you they are not!
It will do you no favours on this forum to communicate in the way you have, to such a highly respected forum member "and moderator" as neuron2... FWIW, I felt much the same way about his comments, which seemed to reflect an unfortunate and all-too-common 'attitude' of insiders toward presumed newbies. I also find your comments inappropriate and offensive. And so it goes...

Just to be clear, once again, I sincerely mean no offense. I'm here looking only for things that are constructive and on-point. I normally eschew 'funny' or clever repartee -- I was only responding in kind. (As they say, "what goes around..." ;)) I nonetheless apologize (sincerely) for whatever offense I've given.

Now back to the subject of this thread, the TMPGEnc 3.0 XPress frame rate problem with XviD sources ... anyone?

Have a nice day (sincerely),
John