Trusted Testers ?

[bobololo]

Dear video enthusiasts,

As we're quite close from a new beta round of our avc encoder, we're this time faced to the testers selection issue. You all certainly know that we suffered from a leak during our previous beta round and that unfortunately has caused us to be more restrictive on the testers selection.

The purpose of this post is to collect your comments and opinions in order to setup a trusted beta testing environment.

A very first draft of what we could do would consist in those following rules :

- A subset of trusted testers (mostly testers from first beta) is selected among all volunteers.

- Then those initial testers could give their consent to other volunteers.

- To become a new tester, a volunteer needs to have the consent of at least two trusted testers.

- An initial trusted tester can give his consent to three volunteers at most.

- If a tester leaks some material he's obviously banned from the test, but testers who gave their consent to him are fired as well forcing people to give their approval to persons they seriously believe in.

The drawback I see in those rules is that newcomers don't have any chance to take part of the test. But I definitely don't have any clue of how we could trust a totally unknown volunteer (unless asking them their credit card number ;).

What do you think ? Do you believe these rules are fair enough ? Have you any idea regarding the inclusion of totally newcomer to the test ? All point of view and suggestions are welcome !

-- bobololo

[Sirber]

Seems cool. Hope it won't leak this time. Looking forward to the new beta tests! :D

[hroo772]

Even though I was not part of your test last time I understand your feelings about a leak. I would like to help your testing team out so that your product can get all the bugs out. Thanks.

[Joe Fenton]

I'm a little surprised you don't make folks sign an NDA. Email an NDA form to the tester. Have them print, sign, scan, and email it back. I've done that several times.

I noticed you didn't make any mention of the kind of systems you're looking for with testers. You might at least mention the minimum system to avoid the trouble of turning down people with 32M 586 90MHz systems. :D

[IgorC]

Rules are fair and clear.
Is it test of High Profile or a new version of main AVC?
What new features are coming out? subtitles, menu, new GUI.
Yes, it´s very hard to beleive to somebody. At least it´s possible
to ask for some personal information.

[acidsex]

I also support signing NDAs. Sorry but these days, its very hard to put my name and trust on the line for someone on the net I have never met before. NDAs are the only way to go for you all to have some legal binding recourse.

That said, I look forward to being a part of the next round of testing.

[Blue_MiSfit]

I would love to be a part of the new round, who trusts me? :)

[ChronoCross]

If you need a tester I can do it as well. Let me know.

[Mug Funky]

it would be intersting to take part in this test (if y'all trust me).

i have a few questions though:

what kind of sources are you into? i assume a wide variety (not just anime), also, what kind of resolution? D1 size? also (here's a big one) interlaced or progressive?

i ask because i have access to bucketloads of sources of all kinds, but i'd say 60% is either pure video or standards-converted stuff that is now interlaced. sources would be m2v's (don't have the time or disk-space for digibeta captures...).

also, the question about systems is a good one. i have a p3 733 with 512 of regular SDRAM.

only problem is i may not have enough time to do loads of testing.

[Neo Neko]

I am always up for some testing. I have several systems (though all AMD ones) avalible to run on. My only possible issue is I don't have a version of Nero 6 or recode. :( Got a version of 5 somewhere that came with my DVD burner. Not that it's either here nor there. :p Although I have been toying with the idea of getting the latest nero including recode when I have funds avalible in the future. ;)

[hhanh00]

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
I'm a little surprised you don't make folks sign an NDA. Email an NDA form to the tester. Have them print, sign, scan, and email it back. I've done that several times.

I noticed you didn't make any mention of the kind of systems you're looking for with testers. You might at least mention the minimum system to avoid the trouble of turning down people with 32M 586 90MHz systems. :D

Even with a NDA, if the company doesn't have the will or the means to take legal action, there isn't much protection against a leak. What about adding a watermark to each build and adding a timebomb? You guys probably already thought about it, right?

Thanks,
--h

[Koepi]

Guess how they found _who_ leaked the codec last time.

I guess I'm no trustworthy tester either, am I?

(Just kidding. I've no time to test another codec :) )

Cheers
Koepi

[dragongodz]

Email an NDA form to the tester. Have them print, sign, scan, and email it back.
hmm and if its say someone like me who does not have a scanner or access to one ? sorry an NDA doesnt always work and discounting someone because they are unable to sign one is selling some people short. i did some early testing for VP7 for example, did anyone even know that though ? no NDA was needed and i was still trustworthy.

Then those initial testers could give their consent to other volunteers.
thats better. my past contributions to the forum should show the type of person i am. maybey making a list of potential new testers and asking ,privatly, for opinions of these people from the trusted initial testers would be better than having to have the explicit consent of 2.

just thoughts anyway. :)

[Andrey]

Hi guys !
>>I also support signing NDAs. Sorry but these days, its very hard to
>>put my name and trust
NDA is good, but in many countries it will mean nothing in legal terms. :(
Idea of two trusted tester is interesting, but would it work on practice ? I do not want to give my (for example) word for people I do not know and saw 10 posts of them...
Need to think about it... :(

[hhanh00]

Well... I'd like to throw my hat into the ring. Anyone would like to sponsor me?

Thanks,
--h

[bobololo]

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
I'm a little surprised you don't make folks sign an NDA. Email an NDA form to the tester. Have them print, sign, scan, and email it back. I've done that several times.

I noticed you didn't make any mention of the kind of systems you're looking for with testers. You might at least mention the minimum system to avoid the trouble of turning down people with 32M 586 90MHz systems. :D

Even with a NDA signed, we have no way to prevent a malicious person to use a false identity & address. As long as we're dealing with a single person (not a company) it will be hard for us to verify whether he's cheating or not.

Regarding the requirements, they will come in time. This thread wasn't intended to give the kick off of a new beta but instead a discussion about how it could be done :)

[Latexxx]

Using dongles would be some serious protection and would force people to give their real addresses. On the other hand it would be awfully expensive to send dongles all over the world.

[acidsex]

Originally posted by Latexxx
Using dongles would be some serious protection and would force people to give their real addresses. On the other hand it would be awfully expensive to send dongles all over the world.


Not to mention that dongles are easily crackable. Just ask Avid.

I would support the 2 recommendation system however I will NOT recommend/ednorse anyone. As I said before, no way am I going to put my nameand integrity in someone else's hands. Call it paranoia, Ill just call it being safe and prevention and protection.

They could always hard code the testers real name, ss#, address, etc... so if they idiot decides to pirate it, then not only does Ateme/Nero lose something, the moron will have his info out there on the net for others to do him harm. Kharma's a bitch sometimes. If testers are responsible and dont share, then their personal information will NOT fall into the wrong hands.

[Teegedeck]

Reasonable setup.

As always I am dead curious for as long as the codec hasn't been released. After the release I don't really care about closed-source stuff. Thing is that a) I don't have much time, so if I were to participate I could only test performance on two or three clips, and b) I don't have Nero 6 so I could not compare your new codec to that version. So decide whether this is any help for you at all.

[yaz]

would be mottoed like 'trained watchdogs are warmly welcomed, some trust-paranoia is non-exclusive' ;)
in my very personal and very humble opinion, this way u wouldn't get anything else but inefficiency. if i were a trusted person i would follow the strategy; not to invite anyone else as it minimizes the risk of being banned in the end ...
... if that 'ban' is really sg which would be taken seriously. amof, i can't see any possible way of 'banning' which would be preventive (a/o deterrent) enough.
... aso aso ... such systems have many drawbacks and are only good for 'laying the blame on someone else'

what u need is 'personalizing' the testers. one way is contracting them personally. (no branching nor 'trusting the trustee' neither sg) the other (less reliable) way is 'personalizing' the codes released. each tester obtain a unique digitally signed copy. it'll provide only 'tracebility of leakage' but it'd be much more than that given by the system u outlined.

good testing
y

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by bobololo

Even with a NDA signed, we have no way to prevent a malicious person to use a false identity & address. As long as we're dealing with a single person (not a company) it will be hard for us to verify whether he's cheating or not.

Dumb idea...

Why not demand a picture of the identity card ???


Bye

[bobololo]

Originally posted by yaz
what u need is 'personalizing' the testers. one way is contracting them personally. (no branching nor 'trusting the trustee' neither sg) the other (less reliable) way is 'personalizing' the codes released. each tester obtain a unique digitally signed copy. it'll provide only 'tracebility of leakage' but it'd be much more than that given by the system u outlined.

The testing materials in the previous beta *were* signed and didn't prevent from leak.

[bobololo]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Dumb idea...

Why not demand a picture of the identity card ???
Ask Cruncher to show you his identity card ;)

[Sharktooth]

IMHO digital signature would be the best choice.
Each encoder get digitally signed with user data.
Users signs a NDA and if a leak happen you know who leaked the software and you can sue him/her.

[yaz]

Originally posted by bobololo
The testing materials in the previous beta *were* signed and didn't prevent from leak. must quote myselfOriginally posted by yaz
...it'll provide only 'tracebility of leakage' or in other wordsOriginally posted by Sharktooth
...if a leak happen you know who leaked the software and you can sue him yep ... personalize ... or have i mentioned it yet ? ;) (hmm, is it an english word at all?)

btw, sharky, why do u think girls wouldn't leak ? :)

the bests
y

[Sharktooth]

Doh!

[IgorC]

It´s possible to join documents as Passport, University card etc. Maybe it´s easy to falcificate 1 document, but not a few.

I can send scaned copy of passport. But wich one? :rolleyes:

[Sirber]

Please do NOT email or pm me about being a tester. I don't even know if I'm a trusted one. Thanks.
Originally posted by IgorC
It´s possible to join documents as Passport, University card etc. Maybe it´s easy to falcificate 1 document, but not a few.

I can send scaned copy of passport. But wich one? :rolleyes:
Too much troubles to manage...

[Razorblade2000]

well, sounds fair to me...
nothing to cover = nothing to hide :P

[Andrey]

>>Why not demand a picture of the identity card ???
Atheme can have legal issues with it, because storing personal data in many countries require to register the "storage" and the storage goal in a special goverment commission. At least, here it is.

[dragongodz]

Users signs a NDA and if a leak happen you know who leaked the software and you can sue him/her.
Why not demand a picture of the identity card ???
and i will quote myself in reply.
hmm and if its say someone like me who does not have a scanner or access to one ?
besides if you are so untrusting of a person you need photo i.d. etc then just dont use that person.

I would support the 2 recommendation system however I will NOT recommend/ednorse anyone. As I said before, no way am I going to put my nameand integrity in someone else's hands. Call it paranoia, Ill just call it being safe and prevention and protection.
if you are not willing to recommend anyone then you do not support it at all. would you give a general opinion of people on a list though if there was no recommending or come back against you ?

[Leak]

Originally posted by Koepi
I guess I'm no trustworthy tester either, am I?

Well, I guess I as well shouldn't even think about applying, considering my username... :D

(Not that I currently have the time for it, anyway... ;))

np: Autechre - Part 1 (XLTronic Radio 25.01.05)

[Selur]

if there's still room for testers I'd like to test too :D
(I like testing new stuff,...)

Cu Selur

[ChronoCross]

Suing someone for leaking a codec would be rather pointless. Waht are you gonna do garnish his wages for the next 100 years to try and make even a few thousand dollars? I think that's the main reason that things get leaked, people don't have anything that would be worth suing. It would cost nero more in legal fees than they would get out of the individual. Which is why their approach of trusted testers goes to the very core of our community. It shows how much each person trusts each other. I would definitely trust quite a few people on this forum and for those of you who have been around longer probably have more reasons to trust people.

Now if Only I knew who the trusted testers were and could get them to vouch for me lol.

[LigH]

Unfortunately, I don't own a scanner.

But I'd like to participate again (because I have a rather slow and lower-level CPU, you might be interested in speed and non-SSE compliance reports).

So if any trusted tester would like to give me one of his consent, I wouldn't mind.

[JoeBG]

It would be a priviledge to be a member of the testing team and working with you all :)

[bob0r]

try open source, problem solved

[Sharktooth]

LOL :D

[acidsex]

Originally posted by dragongodz
and i will quote myself in reply.

besides if you are so untrusting of a person you need photo i.d. etc then just dont use that person.


if you are not willing to recommend anyone then you do not support it at all. would you give a general opinion of people on a list though if there was no recommending or come back against you ?

When I said I support that 2 recommendations, its just that. I support the program and find nothing wrong with it. My choice NOT to recommend anyone thus placing my integrity on the line is my CHOICE. While others may not be paranoid of such things, I have a lot more at stake then most. Whereas a regular tester who works 40 hours a week couldnt possibly be sued and have major damages taken from them. In my situation, I have a lot of income that could be sued for and I am not willing to put my lively hood on the line for anyone. This is more than a beta test for some of us, especially when you figure in legal liabilities and financial ramifications.

[SeeMoreDigital]

All the usual suspects here I see!

I'm really pleased that we've been considered for another test, so I'm up for it... if I'm considered worthy :)


Cheers

[IgorC]

I think probability that beta will be leaked in second testing will be much minor than in first. Because second test will be integrated from 80-90% aprox. (I don´t know presice numbers) from old testers of the first test.
How much people leaked their beta in first test? Only one person (besides it was enough).
Probability of beta leak of second test will be depending of the new testers that forms 20-10% (aprox) from total number of testers. But the each new tester has to have 2 votes. It´s enough to prevent bad results.

[Sagittaire]

[Mode joke On]
it's very simple ... don't believe Russian tester ... lol
[/Mode joke Off]

[Sirber]

Bad jokes...

[Teegedeck]

When criticising this whole approach don't forget that our friends at Ateme inevitably had to come up with some kind of security scheme as a precondition if they were to justify getting their beta-testers from this community once more. What they came up with is as good and non-formal as any solution based on trust goes. Time to let it go...

[Leo 69]

To my mind, the probability of leakage is close to zero, just because
th same people will test the codec. And this... voting system is a bit weird. It evokes some not pleasant feelings about the whole situation.
But special measures seem to be necessary sometimes, yeah..

[Teegedeck]

It is not so unusual. Very basic and important a concept, as a matter of fact. Google a bit on 'webs of trust' and 'PGP/GPG'.

[Leo 69]

Well I'm actually very honest. :D I would be in seventh heaven if I'm in :)

[Sirber]

Web is a place where it's easy to lie and hide :)

[LigH]

I don't mind some level of security. For such a level of technological advantage, it appears quite logical to me to ensure that.

I just wonder where the "root" of trusted testers start, who belongs to the "hard core". And: What other testers may get in mind to advertise for recommendations...

[BBugsBunny]

I'd like to participate as well.
I probably have got a rather rare system - a Dual Xeon 3.6 GHz system (EMT 64 ready).
I haven't participated in the first testing round, so I don't know if I will have a chance to get into the second but for sure I would like to...

[vio_man]

I have an idea:

Create a tool which creates an unique hardware ID for each computer (based on RAM, processor, Windows, etc) and create a customized version for each tester which will only run in the tester's computer. Even if leaked it will have to be cracked in order to run in another system. Also if the tester changes the hardware in the mean time, you could send him/her a new version for the new hardware ID and block the older one.

[DeeGee]

I would also like to be part of this, but I don't think I'll be so lucky... But anyway exited to hear what feature have you added.

Too bad about the leak before. Hopefully this time these strict rules stop it from happening.

[Sirber]

Originally posted by vio_man
I have an idea:

Create a tool which creates an unique hardware ID for each computer (based on RAM, processor, Windows, etc) and create a customized version for each tester which will only run in the tester's computer. Even if leaked it will have to be cracked in order to run in another system. Also if the tester changes the hardware in the mean time, you could send him/her a new version for the new hardware ID and block the older one.
Complicated. less work to trust people :)

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by Sagittaire
[Mode joke On]
it's very simple ... don't believe Russian tester ... lol
[/Mode joke Off]

&lt joke&gt
Your XML structure is invalid. Hopefully no MS products were involved. :p

The syntactically correct XML enclosure would be &lt mode joke="on"&gt &lt /mode joke="on"&gt or &lt joke&gt &lt /joke&gt . Can't have computer geeks going around without propperly encapsulating their moods etc. :D
&lt /joke&gt

[dragongodz]

In my situation, I have a lot of income that could be sued for and I am not willing to put my lively hood on the line for anyone. This is more than a beta test for some of us, especially when you figure in legal liabilities and financial ramifications.
whats interesting is that bobololo did not threaten to sue anyone, others started that. all he said was the reccomender would also be fired from the testing. but hey if you trust absolutly nobody on this forum thats up to you.

When criticising this whole approach don't forget that our friends at Ateme inevitably had to come up with some kind of security scheme as a precondition if they were to justify getting their beta-testers from this community once more.
of course. i dont think anyone is saying give out the beta to every man and dog. on the same hand the extremes some people seem to want to go to is a different story. i am waiting for the retina scan, dna test and anal probe suggestions. they cant be far away. :D

What they came up with is as good and non-formal as any solution based on trust goes. Time to let it go...
sorry Teegedeck but to quote bobololo
This thread wasn't intended to give the kick off of a new beta but instead a discussion about how it could be done
so infact this thread is for peoples opinions on whats good, whats bad and how it could be done differently. thats the whole point of this thread.

[vahegan]

Hi, I would like to participate, if possible. I do lots of encodings daily and I am eager to try new stuff from Ateme. I would be very happy if I am selected as a beta tester for this project.
I think what vio_man suggested is simple and efficient, and can provide good enough protection from leaks.

[plonk420]

i'm in and wouldn't mind printing/signing/scanning an NDA. and now that Tiger's unleashed i have 3 platforms to test on... i may even have access to a HD camera (sony's HDV unit). all i'd need to figure out is how to get footage off the unit using software the workplace owns... (avid xpress pro, fcp hd, and adrenaline) preferrably without transcoding...


edit: oops, just noticed that the NDA was someone else's suggestion. as for original testers' subset testers, would they have to be from this board or just people they "know" and trust from anywhere else?

[plonk420]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
&lt joke&gt
Your XML structure is invalid. Hopefully no MS products were involved. :p

The syntactically correct XML enclosure would be &lt mode joke="on"&gt &lt /mode joke="on"&gt or &lt joke&gt &lt /joke&gt . Can't have computer geeks going around without propperly encapsulating their moods etc. :D
&lt /joke&gt

in Soviet Russia, software tests YOU :p

*hides, chastising self for spreading anandtech forum post jokes*

[thegeby]

Happy to see that Ateme is gearing up for more testing. I think the sponsor option is a valid one. An additional possibility would be to require real names in the beta forum. I know some of us (not me, I really am Thegeby, and really ain't not got none to begin with) would lose some street cred, but it does put a bit more on the line...

[Selur]

just a little thought:
Verification could be made via snail mail. A german mail provider does it via snail mail. You register online, they send you a postcard/letter you have to sign (iirc) and then send it back to them, so they know where you live,...

Cu Selur

[Andrey]

>>so they know where you live
Mafia ? :P

[bill_baroud]

I know this post is to discuss how this new test could be done, but if i could participate again, i would be delighted (now that i've time). And i could come in person to Ateme (Rennes) to sign any NDA or anything...

[Teegedeck]

Originally posted by dragongodz

sorry Teegedeck but to quote bobololo

so infact this thread is for peoples opinions on whats good, whats bad and how it could be done differently. thats the whole point of this thread.
You are, of course, correct. So, on to business.

The whole problem is that what Ateme probably aims for is not the ability to sue anyone who doesn't adhere to the conditions of the test (would be costly, never a threat certain enough to deter everyone, and bad rep in the community), after the fact becomes known, but to prevent anyone from violating those conditions beforehand.

So in order to build a feeling of obligation they can a) deter or b) generate commitment. Verifying the participants' identity goes more into the direction of a), while the scheme of mutual responsiblity and trust described earlier on goes more into the direction of b).

I would prefer b); mainly because it is easier to do, and immediately. Now, in order to allow for including 'newbies' I would propose that every already 'trusted' tester is obliged to certify, say, one new participant as 'trusted'. If that new participant would leak material, the one who vouched for him gets of course fired, also, just like initially described. That would be a very unfair scheme, yeah, but it would be probable to produce a stronger commitment of the new participant. Or not? ;)

[Doom9]

< mode joke="on"> </mode joke="on">Actually, attributes are to be placed only in the opening tag, so it would have to be <mode joke="on">blahblah</mode>

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by Doom9
Actually, attributes are to be placed only in the opening tag, so it would have to be <mode joke="on">blahblah</mode>

Indeed. DOH! :p

[IgorC]

bad_joke function (sagitaries joke)
{ do
{ printf(" Keep your jokes with yourself")
} while (joke!=´/0´);
return rebad_joke;
}; :p

[Sirber]

Originally posted by IgorC
bad_joke function (sagitaries joke)
{ do
{ printf(" Keep your jokes with yourself")
} while (joke!=´/0´);
return rebad_joke;
}; :p
Compiler error :p

[Gabriel_Bouvigne]

The problem is that you will perhaps have a hard time finding new testers.
Myself, as an example, would not recommand anyone in this scheme (except people already in your list). I am probably trustworthy (at least I think so), but as I am mainly an audio guy, I do not know video people "deeply" enough. I think that I am probably not alone in a similar situation.
I think that you would have new testers only if the recommandation by 2 people do no imply to be "liable" for the behavior of the recommanded.

This could be handled using the usual "circle" way, as in the IT Who's Who, as a example: new testers can only be suggested by existing testers, but should not ask themselves to become a tester.


A snail mail NDA could also be fine, IMHO.

[Bulletproof]

I'd love to give the new version a go, it was really great to be in the previous beta and just like the last test I would try my best to provide useful feedback to improve your product. One thing in particular that I'm really hoping for is the pause button to not actually cause the encoder to become deadlocked after running a CPU intensive application like a game. Not having to use your computer for 10+ hrs. is really hard :p and I'm really tempted to play a game and pause my encoding.

[Doom9]

I've been playing games while encoding in the background.. even did that when I was encoding for the codec comparison. While encoding, I finished NFSU2 and played through Half Life 2.

[Sirber]

Makes the encoding encode at 0 FPS. Best have a second computer or do it during the night.

[Doom9]

games hardly use up all cpu resources.. the GFX card is usually the limiting factor. And obviously if you need your CPU power for something else.. don't expect fast encoding. You can have a 8-way system and still use 100% cpu resources. And you'll never have a fast enough CPU ever.

let's get back on topic now. The idea of having to vouch for testers is a good thing.. it's quite harsh that the referer is also kicked, but having a personal stake ensures that only really trusthworthy people get in. And it's not like it's not possible to that encoder gets into hands it's not supposed to.. you could theoretically even share it with family and friends that are trustworthy.. you just need to be sure they're not going to screw you.

[Joe Fenton]

Okay, no NDA, no postcards, no IDs, no dongles. What you do is make the codec ask for a password each week. The password is programmed to change by a complicated set of rules partly based on the date. Each week, email new passwords to the testers. If a codec leaks, you stop sending that person the passwords. Anyone using the codec is stuck setting their clock back anytime they wish to use the codec, so they won't bother. Too much hassle for a beta codec. Sound good?

[IgorC]

Too much extra job for testers and developers. Some people will try to change current date to prolong ability of codec.

[bobololo]

Some of you suggested the beta to be covered by a NDA. To me this NDA would theoricaly offer us the possibility to start a legal action against a leaker. Considering that fact, all testers would then be afraid of getting sued and therefore won't leak. That's a good point.

However I've still a concern. How can we be sure that a NDA isn't executed using false personal info ? If I was a malicious testers, I would fill the NDA with John Doe, living somewhere in US and send it back by snail mail. The NDA would therefore be totally useless and I'd free to leak the beta without any risks.

How can we circumvent this ?

[bobololo]

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
Okay, no NDA, no postcards, no IDs, no dongles. What you do is make the codec ask for a password each week. The password is programmed to change by a complicated set of rules partly based on the date. Each week, email new passwords to the testers. If a codec leaks, you stop sending that person the passwords. Anyone using the codec is stuck setting their clock back anytime they wish to use the codec, so they won't bother. Too much hassle for a beta codec. Sound good?

To be honest, I don't very like the idea of software lock or limitation. IMHO, if we don't take care to whom we give the beta material away, whatever protection you could implement, if it happens to be spread on the net, it will be cracked by a way or another. That's why our rule n°1 is "the beta material must not leak".

[bobololo]

Just to have an idea of how things could take place.

Refering to my first post rules, if you were selected as an initial trusted tester, would you give your consent to any other volunteers and if so how many forum users would you personaly trust ?

[dragongodz]

all testers would then be afraid of getting sued and therefore won't leak. That's a good point.
the only problem there is if the person making a reccomendation is also afraid of being sued for someone else leaking. there is 1 example in this thread already of a person so afraid they wont reccomend anyone. thats pretty sad considering how many good and trustworthy people there are on this forum that someone is so afraid they basically say they wont trust anybody.

To be honest, I don't very like the idea of software lock or limitation.
fair enough. how about each version of the codec has a personnal code hidden in it ? nothing obvious such as a name or something easy to search for but a small sequence that would enable it to be identified from whom it came ?

[P0l1m0rph1c]

Originally posted by dragongodz

fair enough. how about each version of the codec has a personnal code hidden in it ? nothing obvious such as a name or something easy to search for but a small sequence that would enable it to be identified from whom it came ?

That was how they found out who leaked the last time.

[LigH]

Originally posted by bobololo
If I was a malicious testers, I would fill the NDA with John Doe, living somewhere in US and send it back by snail mail. The NDA would therefore be totally useless and I'd free to leak the beta without any risks.

How can we circumvent this ?
If you are so concerned, then it may require several consecutive steps:

1) Tester orders a printed NDA using a valid postal address (no PO-boxes), e.g. via e-Mail
2) Ahead sends a letter containing the printed NDA and a code via e-Mail
3) Tester sends the signed NDA with code back to their next local Ahead branch office

Sounds like

a) almost too much efforts
b) still no guarantee for a "summonable/citatory" (?) address, though

[dragongodz]

That was how they found out who leaked the last time.
sorry it wasnt clear that it was the codec that was tagged since i just saw it mentioning watermarking. besides i was asking bobololo's opinion on it. since it did work first time then why not simply use that plus the reccomendations etc this time.

:sigh:
is that suposed to be clever ? dont be a smart-arse all your life mate.

[Gabriel_Bouvigne]

However I've still a concern. How can we be sure that a NDA isn't executed using false personal info ? If I was a malicious testers, I would fill the NDA with John Doe, living somewhere in US and send it back by snail mail. The NDA would therefore be totally useless and I'd free to leak the beta without any risks.
No, it should be the other way:
YOU send the NDA by snail mail to the tester, using the address he provided. Then he sends it back with a signature, and could even send it back by e-mail (photography of the signed NDA).

This does not specially provides way to sue people, but rather to know the real identity of testers. In case of leaking, to sue or not is only your decision. An NDA does not means that if you do not follow it you will be sued, only that you agreed to follow it. That is why I think signing an NDA does not put extra pressure on "normal" testers. It just provides identity info, which we have no need to hide anyway.

[Sharktooth]

Originally posted by bobololo
However I've still a concern. How can we be sure that a NDA isn't executed using false personal info ? If I was a malicious testers, I would fill the NDA with John Doe, living somewhere in US and send it back by snail mail. The NDA would therefore be totally useless and I'd free to leak the beta without any risks.

How can we circumvent this ?
Easy, send a digital document (pdf or whatever) containing the NDA by email to the potential tester.
The tester prints the docs, signs the NDA and includes a copy of an identity document and send the stuff back to you by UPS.
Once you get the stuff, you send the software by UPS at the given address.

[P0l1m0rph1c]

Originally posted by dragongodz

is that suposed to be clever ? dont be a smart-arse all your life mate.

Hey, man, don't take me wrong. It was just because it was already mentioned in thread a while back. I'll remove it anyhow.

[IgorC]

NDA + personal information is the best choice. Mayor of us hadn´t meet
each other in real life that´s why to obtain 2 votes from trusted testers is just impossible.

[Sirber]

UPS cost money. Email with download link is less expensive...

[edit]

Ha... to verify the address :rolleyes:

[bobololo]

After reading your latest comments, here is a new suggestion :

- Like previously we have some initial trusted testers.
- Those testers can recommend new volunteers but they won't be responsible for the recommended persons.
- A trusted tester can recommend at most 4 volunteers and a volunteer need 2 votes to get in.
- All testers (trusted & new ones) will receive by email a NDA template they have to execute and send back by snail mail to us. The testers will have to provide their personal info (name & address).
- Once received, we send by snail mail to the address provided by the tester a personal login & password required to proceed the beta program.

What do you think ?

[Gabriel_Bouvigne]

- All testers (trusted & new ones) will receive by email a NDA template they have to execute and send back by snail mail to us. The testers will have to provide their personal info (name & address).
- Once received, we send by snail mail to the address provided by the tester a personal login & password required to proceed the beta program.
I think that asking testers to send snail mail could be annoying for them, especially as some will have to send this mail in foreign countries.
As anyway you plan to send them snail mail, why not changing this part into:

*tester provide real ID and snail mail address.
*once received, Ateme sends by snail mail the NDA to fill and sign.
*testers send back the NDA by whatever mean they want, provided that there is at least a "manual" signature. Ways to send it back: by snail mail, by e-mail, by fax
*You then process as usual by e-mailing login and password

[Latexxx]

That sounds pretty reasonable. Though I'm not sure whether you are going to count me as trusted because I didn't sent much comments during the last test round.

[bond]

i doubt that lot of people will do this (snail mail sending) :p
i mean after all the testers are helping ateme, not the other way round, why should they mess around with snail mail, buying stamps and what not...

and why did the leak happen last time? because the beta has been sent to nearly everyone.
i think the easiest way would be to simply give it only to people who have been around for a long time on doom9 and other forums, like hydrogenaudio, and should be pretty reliable anyways
i think its manageable to permanently ban someone from doom9 if he leaks. any long time member wanting this?

after all even if the last beta has been leaked, i dont think that it really gets used (eg so you can see it as real competitor to nerodigital for example, threatening the business)
i mean its commandline (simply look at how many people cant use mp4box or mp4creator without gui) :D

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Latexxx
That sounds pretty reasonable. Though I'm not sure whether you are going to count me as trusted because I didn't sent much comments during the last test round. Me too I'm afraid...

Coz I'm not testing via command line :(


Cheers

[bobololo]

Originally posted by bond
i doubt that lot of people will do this (snail mail sending) :p

If a tester can't even make the effort to go to the post office and send an airmail, I doubt he would be ready to make much effort during the beta ;) After all that only needs to be done once for all.

Considering the excitement and motivation demonstrated by some of the previous posts, I've the feeling it won't be a major issue. Tell me if I'm wrong.

ps: I didn't think about it, but that could be also a way to verify testers motivation ;)

[bobololo]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Me too I'm afraid...

Coz I'm not testing via command line :(

And it'll be CLI again. I couldn't imagine running a cli app could be an issue for a tester ?? What's the matter ???

[bond]

Originally posted by bond
i mean after all the testers are helping ateme, not the other way round, why should they mess around with snail mail, buying stamps and what not... :p

[dragongodz]

bobololo - thats seems much better. yes cost of mail is a bit of a pain but for plain airmail shouldnt be much.

the only thing missing is that there would also be a privacy agreement that peoples names and addresses would not be used for anything outside of the test or divulged to any third party etc etc etc. :)

[Gabriel_Bouvigne]

If a tester can't even make the effort to go to the post office and send an airmail
Have you tryed to go to a french post office recently? It usually means loosing 1 hour and a half saturday morning. This is 1.5 less for coding or testing. My personnal opinion is that you are asking too much in this case. There is a risk that some people would consider that they do not have this extra time to offer, as they are already offering some of their time for testing.

Even for contracting job you usually do not need to send back the contract and nda by snail mail, so why would a tester need to do it?

Of course this is only my personnal opinion...

[IgorC]

It´s not clear how trusted tester will select a new testers. Wich will be a criteries and requirements?

1. Operations with AVS, CLI etc.
2. Ability to post screenshots and upload big or even quite huge video files.
3. SSIM, PSNR and others tests for differnets options
4. Hardware
5. Software
6.. ?

Who are the trust testers?
Have the new testers to pm to trusted testers or just wait to be selected? Untill now I think I can obtain only 1 vote and have no information about how to obtain the second one.

[Doom9]

and why did the leak happen last time? because the beta has been sent to nearly everyone. Actually, a tester gave it to somebody else who then leaked it if I recall correctly.

i think its manageable to permanently ban someone from doom9 if he leaks. any long time member wanting this?as much as I despise people who do not honor the trust placed in them, such a measure would be highly problematic. It would mean an independent entity (me) would suddenly enforce ateme policy.

I'm in a position where I already have to trust more than 50 people implicitly (also known as moderators), so I'd definitely be able to make a recommendation, without having even met a single one in person. A potential moderator is usually suggested by an existing moderator, and they qualify much more by their actions than by offering their services. I figure it wouldn't be much different for beta testers. Beta testing, when properly done, is more a waste of your time as service to whomever wrote the software you're testing, than anything else. It's not fun, it's supposed to be boring and you ought to be able to do better things with your time. So, those that scream out "me me" usually have a different agenda.

[eb]

A little OT.
What we are going to test here, A-:devil: project?
I am/was physicist, may be I can help, joking cos not expecting to get to testers circle.

eb

[Sirber]

I have no clue on what snail mail is, and I have no intention of using it. This thing is by far too troublesome. Until this change, count me off.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Sirber
I have no clue on what snail mail is, and I have no intention of using it. This thing is by far too troublesome. Until this change, count me off. "Snail mail" ie: the old fashioned postal system!

It's how I send my test disc's out to other forum members ;)


Cheers

[ChronoCross]

It's only reasonable that someone chosen as a tester should be willing to provide some type of legal assurance that they will not leak it. Snail mail isn't all that expensive to send a simple legal document.

[LigH]

@ bobo:

If the verification process will include "snail mail", please allow the testers to send the letters to a local branch office near their location, if possible; I guess it would usually be quite expensive to send a letter from one continent to another...

[bobololo]

Originally posted by LigH
@ bobo:

If the verification process will include "snail mail", please allow the testers to send the letters to a local branch office near their location, if possible; I guess it would usually be quite expensive to send a letter from one continent to another...

I just check, sending a 20g letter from France to any country worldwide costs 0.90€. Even it may be a little more expensive in other countries, I guess everyone can afford to spend that amount, no ?

[bobololo]

Originally posted by Sirber
I have no clue on what snail mail is, and I have no intention of using it. This thing is by far too troublesome. Until this change, count me off.

http://www.postescanada.ca/

It will cost you 1.45$ (CA) for sending back to us the signed NDA if you take part to the test :)

OT: hehe I could start a worldwide stamps collection with that beta ;)

[IgorC]

What kind of mail it´s supposed to be send. Simple,fast or another ..?
Simple mail <= 20gr. to any country of Europe from Argentina cost 4,5 pesos (aprox. 1,5u$). I think it´s less o more same price for whole Latin America.

[Sirber]

Originally posted by bobololo
http://www.postescanada.ca/

It will cost you 1.45$ (CA) for sending back to us the signed NDA if you take part to the test :)

OT: hehe I could start a worldwide stamps collection with that beta ;)
I'll pass, thanks.

[DeeGee]

The snailmail NDA sounds quite reasonable method for this beta-testing. Sending one mail from anywhere to anywhere in the planet shouldn't be very expensive.

[vio_man]

It doesn't seems right. Users are beta testing your software and they still have to spend money? That isn't fair.

[LigH]

@ vio_man:

The last time, we received a full registration code for free - that's worth a letter, in my opinion.

And - being a German myself, I may have an advantage:

Nero AG
Im Stöckmädle 18
76307 KARLSBAD
GERMANY

Or where is the "beta tester department" located?

[Sirber]

Originally posted by LigH
The last time, we received a full registration code for free - that's worth a letter, in my opinion.full registration code? :confused:

[IgorC]

NDA will guarantee safety of beta. But what garanty testers will have that their personal information won't be disclosed? If there any organization wich will control it or any document?

[Sagittaire]

and excellent Siemssem hardware player (99$)

but a good tester like to test new codec just for fun and not for money ... lol

[bond]

Originally posted by IgorC
NDA will guarantee safety of beta. But what garanty testers will have that their personal information won't be disclosed? If there any organization wich will control it or any document? i think this uncertainty can only be solved when ateme signs a nda themselves which ensures that they dont spread any info and sends it to us!

[bobololo]

@LigH: we're located in France.

@IgorC: Lol, no ateme doesn't have a spam or email list service dept ;) Obviously all testers info won't be disclosed.

@vio_man: Try to think about everything involved by both testers and us in such a beta test. It would be quite unfair to sum all by thinking "testers are doing tests for us and they need to pay for it !".

[dragongodz]

But what garanty testers will have that their personal information won't be disclosed? If there any organization wich will control it or any document?
which is why i said
there would also be a privacy agreement that peoples names and addresses would not be used for anything outside of the test or divulged to any third party etc etc etc.
back on page 5 aswell. in this day and age peoples privacy has become very important and not for nefarious reasons.

Doom9 also raises a point i tried to make earlier
A potential moderator is usually suggested by an existing moderator, and they qualify much more by their actions than by offering their services. I figure it wouldn't be much different for beta testers.
in that the type of people long time members are can sometimes be gleaned from their actions on this forum. this should provide a good starting point in the very least.

those that scream out "me me" usually have a different agenda.
Doom9 - thats sounds a little jaded doesnt it mate ? i do know what you mean though. :)

[Sirber]

Some people who say "me me" might actually do a great job and be successfull in what they do. It's all about judgement and trust.

[dragongodz]

It's all about judgement and trust.
i agree. i mean i am no fan of NDA's to start with and its a pity that the first test had a leak which seems to have thrown Ateme in to a fear of it happening again so bad. a bit more caution should really be all thats needed because the majority of long time members should be trustworthy. well just have to wait and see what happens.

[vahegan]

Originally posted by Doom9
I've been playing games while encoding in the background.. even did that when I was encoding for the codec comparison. While encoding, I finished NFSU2 and played through Half Life 2.
Very strange. Whenever I play any game during the encoding in Recode, or use the overlay, the resulting .mp4 file is corrupted and has a weird size - something like 15Mb, and is not playable. This is the reason that I am not using recode recently despite the excellent quality of its output - if my child plays a game in the morning the results of a full night's encoding are lost

[Andrey]

>>snail mail
Guys, what the hell is a "snail mail" ? :mad:

[slavickas]

Originally posted by Andrey
>>snail mail
Guys, what the hell is a "snail mail" ? :mad:
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/S/snailmail.html ,second goole's result, btw SeeMoreDigital already explained to Sirber about it
so how about s34rch? :devil:

[Razorblade2000]

You could also try google.com and search for:

define: snail mail

Works like a charm

[Sergei_Esenin]

Originally posted by vahegan
Very strange. Whenever I play any game during the encoding in Recode, or use the overlay, the resulting .mp4 file is corrupted and has a weird size - something like 15Mb, and is not playable. This is the reason that I am not using recode recently despite the excellent quality of its output - if my child plays a game in the morning the results of a full night's encoding are lost

Not to get too OT, but I had the same thing happen when playing Q3 while Nero Recode was running. And for some reason Recode kept trying to crop my 768x576 files which have no letterboxing, which is very annoying; but I digress...

As for complaints about maybe having to send an NDA by real mail, I'm surprised by the negative reaction from some. International letter post is usually very cheap, less than $1 in most places. There is very real reason to worry about a leak. Most beta testers for most big software projects usually sign NDAs. And testing the latest Ateme encoder would be a nice privilege since it's most likely best-in-class. Taken altogether, those make a very good case for why an NDA shouldn't bother you. Consider yourself lucky if you're a "chosen one" instead of worrying about the minor inconvenience of sending back a signed NDA. Heck, I'd send the company my darned credit card number and photo ID for the privilege, yet some are complaining? That's looking a gift horse in the mouth...

Just my opinion though. :D

[Andrey]

>>SeeMoreDigital already explained to Sirber about it
Didn't saw it, sorry.
>>You could also try google.com and search for:
Heh. I'm rather old school man - never search the net when seeking something not related to computers :)
Not because I do not want to, it simply not going into my head. :(

Yep, mail isn't a bad idea...

[Mug Funky]

[OT]
andrey: google is useful for anything you want to know. i often use it to get postal codes, or the number for the local pizza shop, or a road map so i can find a place in fitzroy when i forgot my melway... etc. welcome to teh intarweb :)

[Sharktooth]

pizza shops? and you use google for that? i have 3 of them close enaugh to order a pizza by just opening one of my house windows and ask for it...

[bill_baroud]

:eek: you're crazy, the window is too far away from the desk ! and you even have to stand up ! :D

[Soulhunter]

Originally posted by Sharktooth

i have 3 of them close enaugh to order a pizza by just opening one of my house windows and ask for it...

Uhm, seriously ???

Then you live in Paradise... :o

*feels the need to move to pizzaland*


Bye

[Joe Fenton]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Uhm, seriously ???

Then you live in Paradise... :o

*feels the need to move to pizzaland*


Bye

There's a Pizza Hut less than a mile from my house, but I make my own pizzas. I learned from my brother, who learned from Pizza Hut. :)

[plonk420]

*sighs* complaining about spend your own money? this is like less than a hamburger!

mac (or is it windows) "beta testers" spend at LEAST $100 a year... no to mention render one of their computers useless (or at least a portion of one) for mission-critical useage...

this requirement is such a small price to pay for testing something as cool (IMO) as bleeding edge next-gen compression codecs...

edit: my only issue is that the people i trust are not from this board... nobody would know my IRC friends...

[*.mp4 guy]

If you wave liability for the people refering other people it wont work aswell because there is less incentive to see if someone is really trustworthy. I think a compromise, something like the following would work better.

-Initial trusted testers can give out 3 recomendations.
-2 recomendations are required for another tester to become trusted.
-Each generation of trusted testers gets one less referal to hand out.
-If you refer two people who are untrustworthy you get cut.
-if 3 of your referals eventualy lead to an untrustworty person you are cut

That said It would be fun to get something to put up against X.264, but I am easily detered by long waits and hassles. I Sugest that you have the testers email you an adress, then you mail them a cd; I wouldn't mind giving out my adress, but finding the time and the motivation to mess around with snail mail and stamps would be a drag. I would much rather spend that time beta testing or sleaping.

[DeathTheSheep]

No, no no. It all depends on what KIND of pizza you like, and then what brand. I don't much like Pizza Hut, though... Have you ever tried the frozen pizza "Frecheta Brick Oven" or something like that? It's good. Really good.

[LordRPI]

Originally posted by Soulhunter
Uhm, seriously ???

Then you live in Paradise... :o

*feels the need to move to pizzaland*


Bye

$1 Coronas in Mexico 20 miles from my apartment :)

[DeathTheSheep]

And to think... I just had pizza. Hmm....

I wonder if you could still get to be a tester if
1. You weren't part of the original test team
2. Nobody really voted for you (maybe)

but

1. You are a tested-and-true codec enthusiast
2. You are not a newbie
3. You have performed OK tests in the past (remember the anime codec test?)

I wonder if there is any hope for me... Or maybe I'll just have people vote for me... those who haven't already expended their votes, lol...

[Sharktooth]

OT: Where's the sheep avatar?!?

[DeathTheSheep]

Heh, I wanted a change... I thought everybody hated it. How do you like the new one? I wish I could change my username to LifeAura now... Notice how the sig., the avatar, even the writing style changed?

Yes, I'm trying somethin' new... ah... I wonder, is this a good thing for you guyz? Or is the old one better?

[Sharktooth]

I prefer the old dead grass style but... hey it's your own biz:)

[DeathTheSheep]

Hehe, maybe I should flip your avatar over the x axis while inverting the color, use it as mine, and call myself "Death The Shark."

But that was corny, that whole death thing... Maybe next week, lol

j/k

[Sirber]

Dead grass gave you a style... :cool:

[jfehr]

I don't think anyone here knows me, since I'm not that active, but I'd be willing to, for example, fax a copy of my drivers license. Or even my passport. (I'd have to trust you as much as you trust me then I guess. :)

John

[LigH]

So then, hurry up to send a PM to 'bobololo' if you are interrested, as written in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94634)...

[jfehr]

Yup. Already did. I just did it again with my fax-your-ID offer in case he's not following this thread.

John

Originally posted by LigH
So then, hurry up to send a PM to 'bobololo' if you are interrested, as written in this thread (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94634)...

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by jfehr
Yup. Already did. I just did it again with my fax-your-ID offer in case he's not following this thread. It looks like you've made it onto Bobololo's preliminary list of volunteers (http://pub.ateme.net/~tsouthiv/beta2.txt). Which is a good start :)


Good luck!

[Sigmatador]

Should the new volunteers begin their election campaign? :D

[LiFe]

Hmm, and so begins the popularity contest.

I know noone knows me, but I'd apprieciate 2 votes.

Feel free to check out my msg history and read up on me.
I was a member of Helix Community (Lifers) when it began and have extensive experience in the use of Real's products since G2, which is quite a few years ago...

AVC and nero's tools in particular represent the solution I'm looking for: Cutting edge compression in a new age container and 5.1 support. They're one up on Real's tools because it's an open standard. With Real's products I was always battling with the lack of third party utils to make customisations.

Thanks.

[Sirber]

This is not a popularity contest, people basicly vote for people they know. It's a "trust contest" :S.

[LiFe]

I beleive you just made my point. It's a popularity contest.

[jfehr]

On that note, for anyone that's thinking of voting for me...

I never inhaled!

Originally posted by LiFe
I beleive you just made my point. It's a popularity contest.

[woah!]

so you want free testers to test an encoder that you will make very good money from afterwards, but dont want those testers to leak it. why not offer these testers some incentives that would enhance their effort not to leak it, instead of thinking of ways like NDA's/Firing them?

beta's are just that beta's ...

[eb]

In basic volunteerers for free can work harder and full with new ideas than heavy paid professionals.

[vahegan]

Hi, everyone!
Can I please ask the trusted members for 2 recommendations? I have not been posting much in the forums so probably few people know me here, but I am really very much interested in becoming a beta-tester for this codec. I do a lot of encodings, and I promice to be posting the results regularly. I don't know what evidence of being trustworty can I provide, if needed, I can scan a copy of any documents and would be glad to sign an NDA agreement and send it by post.
I hope it is not yet too late for the applications - I was ill in bed in the past two weeks and did not have access to this forum...

[Doom9]

signup period has ended. so has the usefulness of this thread.