Monster Cables

[Atamido]

Monster Cable (http://www.monstercable.com/) is a brand of cables that are supposedly much higher quality cable that will result in noticably better audio and video signal transfer in a home theater setup. I've seen their usefulness debated a number of times, with most people saying that the difference in signal quality would be so small that it wouldn't matter.

Yesterday I was at an A/V store called Circuit City and they had an interesting demo. They were using a DVD player with two sets of component outs, and a giant plasma TV with two sets of component ins. The TV could display both inputs simultaneously, and you could zoom between them to the point that both were shown the same size. They used the standard cable that shipped with the DVD player for one input, and a Monster Cable for the other. The image being shown over the Monster Cable was significantly better than the other. It was no contest, the other image was quite blurry by comparison.

I couldn't see behind the setup to confirm that identical inputs were being used, and the cables and such, so it isn't absolute to me. But I was wondering if anyone else has seen any similar demos and what their impressions were.

[Latexxx]

It could be that the original cables were some miserable non shielded versions.

[Mug Funky]

if a test isn't transparent, it's not a real test. that's all i have to say about monster cables.

just some decent, thickish oxygen free cable will get you as much quality as you'll get out of those bullcrap snake-oil expensive cables.

as of this date, no successful double-blind tests have been conducted between $10 cable and $200,000 cable (yes, they go that high).

it's possible that the DVD player's component output is somehow naff, or bad cabling was used for the "normal" setup (like they'd cut through all but 1 strand of the copper, and damaged the shielding, or simply coated the connectors with some kind of insulator).

[Atamido]

Cables that come with DVD players are always pretty cheap. But this didn't look like any sort of 'officially sanctioned' demo. There was a paper on either side saying which was which. There was nothing professional looking about it, and I doubt that anyone actually sabotaged it. Those employees just don't care enough.

Assuming that the demo was fair, where is the point of diminishing returns for signal quality? Is a small step above the cheap cables that come with equipment going to be identical to a high dollar one? I don't think I've even noticed other cables being sold with 'features' like oxygen-free. Only gold-plated and solid-core.

[Mug Funky]

usually they're called "OFC" to sound cool... basically an acronym for Oxygen Free Copper.

not sure about solid core... depends how thick it is, because when you use solid stuff, you get eddy currents causing resistance in the wire. but it's been so long since i messed with electronics that i forget whether these would be a problem for something so thin (as opposed to a transformer which is quite thick).

[mpucoder]

Two different kinds of "core". A solid core coaxial cable has a solid inner conductor, as opposed to a stranded one. The core of a transformer is the iron frame that the coils wrap around - this is where eddy currents form and lower the efficiency of the transformer, but it's unrelated to coaxial cable performance.
Supposedly higher frequency current travels on the surface of a wire, the "skin effect". That would mean that a cable with a stranded inner conductor would have more surface area, and conduct high frequencies better.
Monster cable started out with a very expensive ofc cable of varying guage wires stranded together. Their hype was the different wire sizes each carried a different frequency range. It was all bullcrap. Professional sound installations use heavy wire, but not monster cables. And side by side no one can tell the difference in a home system between monster cable and awg16 (or 14 for higher power systems) zip cord or jacketed 14/2.
But that's speaker wire, carrying high current and voltage (relative to a video signal). Cables do make a difference with high frequency signals - but I'll never use Monster Cable because of their earlier scam. I use what the broadcasters use, Beldon. Just make sure it's the proper impedance (75 ohm for video).

[communist]

Is this the same Monster company sueing everyone for just using the word 'monster' in any kind of way (company and / or product name)?

[SeeMoreDigital]

OFC cables, directional cables, single insulated, double insulated, single solid core, multi stranded core... all can produce subtle differences to either an analogue audio and video signal... but as with anything there must be a limit. And then there the differences between end connectors!

Most store bought leads, even the expensive ones, are often too long for your requirements, meaning they end up hanging at the back of your gear... or worse, they get coiled up at the back of your gear.

My advice to anybody who owns a soldering iron and has the necessary skills, is to buy the required quantity of high-spec cable and connectors separately... and make your own leads ;)


Cheers

[communist]

Hehe just did a google search and yes that seem to be the same guys (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/11/08/BUG1J9N3C61.DTL&type=business).

Well as SMD and mpucoder said, just use what is known to work - build your own cables or let it do by someone who knows how to solder :)

[zilog jones]

That Monster stuff looks like such a rip-off, especially their high-end stuff. Hmm, I could either (a) buy a DVD player and a €120 Monster SCART cable, or for the same price (b) buy a significantly better DVD player or even DVD recorder and a Hitachi OFC shielded SCART cable which is probably just as good for about €10-20...

I try and buy decent - though not overpriced - cable, usually from brands I've heard of like Hitachi, JVC or Masterplug (though I don't actually know if these have a good reputation for cables), and I try and get OFC cable on the basis that I assume it'll last longer as it shouldn't corrode (?), though the only actual difference I've seen from using good cables is with RGB (SCART) and s-video signals, but that's mainly due to lack of shielding on cheap cables.

And yes, making your own cables is fun! My Sony micro hi-fi had weird plugs for the speakers, but thanks to Mr. Soldering Iron it didn't stop me from putting in longer wires!

[Doobie]

You guys know the monster-size markup on those Monster cables. What a ripoff. You should be able to find quality cables for a lot less. As for me, the cheap cables work just fine.

Monster Cables sueing Monster Garage for using the word "monster"? It disgusts me that a company can take owership of a word, especially a common word. Monster Cable and Monster Garage have nothing in common.

What next? Microsoft sueing the makes of glass windows for using "Windows" in their name?

I was disappointed to hear that Mandrake was forced to change their name. They were sued by the owners of a comic strip named Mandrake. I'm sorry, so what. Linux and a comic strip have nothing in common. No chance of confusion. The word "mandrake" (meaning Dragon, and a popular plant), also is a word that has been around a very long time, long before the Mandrake comic strip. Mandrake Linux is now Mandriva Linux.

If you want to own a word, make up one, like Exxon. Or, use a phrase, like International Business Machines.

[adam]

Doobie, just to clarify, there are two types of trademark actions under the Lanham Act. One is confusion based and the other is dilution/disparagement. The idea is that if everyone stuck Monster in front of their business name it would detract from Monster Cable's uniqueness. Its only allowed for "famous marks" which is an extremely high burden to meet. For Monster Cable, its a very weak argument but plenty of other businesses have been successful. The best example was a dentist's office named McDental. If that were allowed you can be sure that everyone and their mother would use Mc_____ for their business name.

BTW: Windows would be generic for actual windows, so no one could prevent them from using that, plus Windows was deemed generic for operating systems too in the Lindows case. Microsoft basically has no power to enforce its Windows trademark. How bout them apples?

[Mug Funky]

hehe. macca's tried to sue oxford dictionary for it's inclusion of the word "McJob", as a poorly paid job with little or no promotion prospects.

i'm pretty sure it was thrown out of court. it's not Oxford who decide if words are being commonly used.

[Doobie]

Originally posted by adam BTW: Windows would be generic for actual windows, so no one could prevent them from using that, plus Windows was deemed generic for operating systems too in the Lindows case. Microsoft basically has no power to enforce its Windows trademark. How bout them apples?

As you recall, Lindows was forced to change its name Linspire. Microsoft didn't win in one location, but the won in another.

[adam]

Yes that's true, Lindows got tired of having to defend itself everywhere that Microsoft had a trademark registered, but the damage was still done. Windows was deemed generic in each country that they tried to enforce it (US, Sweden, and France) and MS is now unable to even file a trademark suit in these countries. I'm sure the same result would happen if suit was filed in any other country as well, but for that you'd need another company willing to take on Microsoft.

Microsoft can threaten suit in other countries besides these three, but even then the Windows trademark would still be legally unenforceable.

[feedback]

Physics:

Electrons flow on the surface of the conductor Not through it i.e. like water through a hose, Not! So, with a stranded conductor there is more surface area than a same gauge solid conductor. Therefore, more electrons are conducted. Also, for those producing there own cables, a ten strand cable, for instance, by severing one stand you have lost 10 percent of your signal carrying capacity. So, you should be very careful.

The conductors with the Least amount of resistance are first silver, second copper and Last gold.

However, the first two, silver and copper oxidize and loose conductive properties over time.(Not to mention the cost of Silver)
Gold does not oxidize (as opposed to silver solder)which is why it is used in soldering Government electronic equipment such as used by NASA.

[Guest]

As long as the strands are in contact the skin effect applies to the overall diameter of the stranded wire as a whole. Only if each strand is insulated from the others by an insulator would the skin effect apply to the individual strands. Your idea that stranding allows a summation of individual strand skin effects is incorrect, and in fact is a common misconception.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by neuron2
As long as the strands are in contact the skin effect applies to the overall diameter of the stranded wire as a whole. Only if each strand is insulated from the others by an insulator would the skin effect apply to the individual strands. Your idea that stranding allows a summation of individual strand skin effects is incorrect, and in fact is a common misconception. Agreed ;)

Plus there are some new cable proposals involving placing a full foil wrap around a multi strand conductor as well as the shield....


Cheers

[Atamido]

Originally posted by neuron2
Only if each strand is insulated from the others by an insulator would the skin effect apply to the individual strands. So I should be using Cat6 cable and soldering all of the wires together at the end to a connector?

[Guest]

Originally posted by Pamel
So I should be using Cat6 cable and soldering all of the wires together at the end to a connector? I don't know. I haven't done the required calculations.

[KpeX]

Originally posted by Doobie
I was disappointed to hear that Mandrake was forced to change their name. They were sued by the owners of a comic strip named Mandrake. I'm sorry, so what. Linux and a comic strip have nothing in common. No chance of confusion. The word "mandrake" (meaning Dragon, and a popular plant), also is a word that has been around a very long time, long before the Mandrake comic strip. Mandrake Linux is now Mandriva Linux. This is a bit OT for this thread, but mandrake changed to mandriva because of a merge (with Conectiva Linux), not because of any lawsuit.

[MvB]

Hi all,

just try to get a copy of Allan Wrigths "Super cables cookbook (http://www.vacuumstate.com/cables.htm)". He's explaining a lot and shows how to build good cables cheap by yourself.

[Atamido]

Originally posted by neuron2
I don't know. I haven't done the required calculations. I will wait patiently for you to complete them. :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Pamel
So I should be using Cat6 cable and soldering all of the wires together at the end to a connector? An interesting idea...

But would that be Cat 6 solid or stranded core ....Sorry I could not help myself ;)


Cheers

[Guest]

It's like asking should I use 10 normal audio cables connected in parallel insread of just one. At some point, and I assume one cable is enough (!), the resistance at the desired frequency is low enough that adding more conductors in parallel has no significant effect.

[Atamido]

Except that Cat6 is really cheap in bulk. Decent speaker wire costs a bit more.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Pamel
Except that Cat6 is really cheap in bulk. Decent speaker wire costs a bit more. Depending on the wattage of your amp/speakers I would not have thought Cat 6 cable can be used as a replacement to speaker cable, as it's not designed to carry high amp-ages/voltages.

I doubt Cat 6 could be used as an audio/video interconnect cable either, given it has a typical impedance of 100 ohms (+/- 15%), instead of 75 ohms.


Cheers

[Doobie]

Originally posted by KpeX
This is a bit OT for this thread, but mandrake changed to mandriva because of a merge (with Conectiva Linux), not because of any lawsuit.

Yeah, right, Mandrake gave up a well-established name because they just wanted to make up a new name, a mutant name to reflect a purchase. The lawsuit against them for using the name Mandrake had nothing to do with it. Yes, we're getting off topic, I just don't want to leave your error uncorrected.

[Surf]

Pheew! I thought I was being cheap to meself, passing up on the mumbo jumbo m-cable pitch from the sales rep when purchasing a hi-def tv.

If it sounds too good to be true....

One of me friends is a cable guy, ergo unlimited supply of Beldan, great coax cable, RG6U! U for quad shield.

Anyone wonder about this? The 1st point of contact of a component(receiver, dvd, vcr) is made of a tin-alloy?