MenuShrink and Spiderman 1

[jeanl]

People,
A few days ago, I tried MenuShrink 2.0 on spiderman 1 (R1) and ran into serious problems when trying to play the resulting DVD on my standalone. The main menu would not show, and navigation is nearly completely broken.
I'm posting this in case anybody runs into the same problem.

I have investigated and discovered that the menu is authored in a very strange manner with close to 200 subpic units in it ("normal" menus only have 1 per stream, so a total of 2 or 3). I have no idea why this menu was authored that way, since all the button highlights are identical in all the packs (I checked with subrip), but the fact is that it creates a problem for MenuShrink...
I've changed the code to avoid the problem but I need to do more testing to check that the change does not break anything else before releasing a new version.
If you run into the problem, let me know and I'll send you a "fixed" version.

jeanl

[nwg]

Do you want me to try the R2 version?

[jeanl]

Originally posted by nwg
Do you want me to try the R2 version?
Yes, why not, if you have time. Chances are it will be very different, but you never know. If you use one of the latest versions of MenuShrink, it will report (in green) if it finds more than 1 SPU in any menu. This will tell you right away if you have the same problem or not...
jeanl

[sweetness]

jeanl, is it this one (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005JKCH.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)? i don't have much room on my hard drive right now but i'll look at it when i have more space.

edit: i get a "WARNING: PgcEdit has detected several sets of buttons in this cell." that one?

[nwg]

Originally posted by jeanl
Yes, why not, if you have time. Chances are it will be very different, but you never know. If you use one of the latest versions of MenuShrink, it will report (in green) if it finds more than 1 SPU in any menu. This will tell you right away if you have the same problem or not...
jeanl

I can do it now. I have 2.05.

[nwg]

Navigation is screwed up on the R2 as well.

I only have up to 2.05.

I also cannot load the menushrinked files into DVD Shrink.

If I keep audio in the menu. I get a cannot open VTS_02_0.VOB error. If I take the menu audio out, I get a cannot open VTS_03_0.VOB error.

[jeanl]

Originally posted by sweetness
jeanl, is it this one (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00005JKCH.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)? i don't have much room on my hard drive right now but i'll look at it when i have more space.

edit: i get a "WARNING: PgcEdit has detected several sets of buttons in this cell." that one?
No it's not the special edition. It's a single-disc edition...
jeanl

[jeanl]

Originally posted by nwg
Navigation is screwed up on the R2 as well.

Screwed up in what way? Does it play in PowerDVD (mine did without problem, and also in mediaplayerclassic).


I also cannot load the menushrinked files into DVD Shrink.

If I keep audio in the menu. I get a cannot open VTS_02_0.VOB error. If I take the menu audio out, I get a cannot open VTS_03_0.VOB error.
Wow! That's not the error I get! That's super weird! I was able to open my DVD in shrink without any problem. Are you 100% sure you didn't screw something up? Typically, this kind of error is caused by a mismatch between the IFOs and the VOBs, the kind of stuff a mock strip will fix. But I'd like to know if MS did screw something up!
Can you post the log please? Thanks!

In any case, grab version 2.07 at
http://jean.laroche.free.fr/MenuShrink/Betas/

If your problem is the same as mine (I'm not sure, since you didn't post the log), then 2.07 should fix it. Let me know...

jeanl

[jeanl]

Originally posted by nwg
Navigation is screwed up on the R2 as well.

Also, makes sure you keep these screwed up files if you can! I'm almost sure a mock strip will solve the problem, but I'd love to see what needs to be fixed in the IFOs/VOBs for shrink to load the DVD without problem. I'm really puzzled here!
jeanl

[nwg]

Originally posted by jeanl
Screwed up in what way? Does it play in PowerDVD (mine did without problem, and also in mediaplayerclassic).

[B]
Wow! That's not the error I get! That's super weird! I was able to open my DVD in shrink without any problem. Are you 100% sure you didn't screw something up? Typically, this kind of error is caused by a mismatch between the IFOs and the VOBs, the kind of stuff a mock strip will fix. But I'd like to know if MS did screw something up!
Can you post the log please? Thanks!

In any case, grab version 2.07 at
http://jean.laroche.free.fr/MenuShrink/Betas/

If your problem is the same as mine (I'm not sure, since you didn't post the log), then 2.07 should fix it. Let me know...

jeanl

I just tried 2.07 and get the same results.

In powerDVD. The menu shows up but, I cannot select any buttons like play movie, special movie, scene selection etc.

I still get the cannot find vob error when loading into shrink. (Vob 2.0 when removing music and Vob 3.0 when keeping menu music).

I email you the log file.

[jeanl]

Here's the part of the LOG for VTS 2 and 3:

Shrinking VTS_03_0.VOB, not keeping audio
Selecting the I-frame 85% into the menu.
Found VOB/CELL ID 1/1 with 1 buttons at sector 0
NOTE: buttons are tiny (4x5) killing the cell.
Inserting I-Frame at original LBA 0
NOTE: Can't find end of I-frame at input LBA 0
WARNING: Unknown video format while adjusting End of Presentation Time
Updating VTS_03_0.IFO
Done...

Shrinking VTS_02_0.VOB, not keeping audio
Selecting the I-frame 85% into the menu.
Found VOB/CELL ID 1/1 with 1 buttons at sector 0
NOTE: buttons are tiny (4x5) killing the cell.
Inserting I-Frame at original LBA -1
NOTE: Can't find end of I-frame at input LBA 0
WARNING: Unknown video format while adjusting End of Presentation Time
Couldn't seek to sector -1, exiting
Read failed, exiting
Updating VTS_02_0.IFO
Done...

Look at all the problems!!!

"Inserting I-Frame at original LBA -1 "

LBA -1 ???? No kidding!

"WARNING: Unknown video format while adjusting End of Presentation Time"

That's a bad one! MS didn't find the video format in the cell! Then it can't seek to the sector and things get really bad.
The same problems exist with almost all the other VTS.

So either the rip is bad or there's a pretty serious bug in MS that this particular DVD exposes. I'm guessing it failed to find any video pack in these cells (!!!) I'll get back to you...
jeanl

[jeanl]

I'm posting for nwg. Apparently his rip was faulty which explains all the MS errors, and the fact that Shrink refused to load the output DVD.

He re-ripped and got normal results with MS. His version of spiderman has the same weird menu as I have in R1. He's currently testing whether the output will play in his numerous standalones!!! ;)
jeanl

[jeanl]

Here's what nwg reports:

I have burned Spiderman. The menu buttons work fine
in all my players. It is really hard to see the
button highlights.

However, the stills of the video sequences are blurry
and shaking a bit. I wonder if it is because the
video is fast moving all the time. I processed the
files again and chose my own stills. They came out
better and looked normal.

The re-ripped files still have that pack header
problem but doesn't seem to affect the MS output?

I confirm that the menus have fast motion videos which means hand-selecting the frames is a good idea! I'm not too sure what the problem is with the missing pack headers in the ripped files (as reported by decrypter). I'm not too sure why MS does not seem to be bothered by it...

In any case, it appears 2.07 does fix the problem for nwg as well.

jeanl

[blutach]

As a general rule, I fiund that manual selection of the frame is the best way to go in terms of picture clarity.

I don't think Spiderman-1 has a structural protection problem that needs special treatment by DVD Decrypter (at least it doesn't in R4). I'd try the rip again with structural protection off.

Regards

[jeanl]

Originally posted by blutach
As a general rule, I fiund that manual selection of the frame is the best way to go in terms of picture clarity.

I don't think Spiderman-1 has a structural protection problem that needs special treatment by DVD Decrypter (at least it doesn't in R4). I'd try the rip again with structural protection off.

Regards
Blutach, what do you call structural protection. I wonder if that's what nwg was running into (lots of ripping error, pack headers missing etc). His second rip was working though...
How do you turn "structural protection off" in decrypter?
jeanl

[nwg]

Originally posted by jeanl
Blutach, what do you call structural protection. I wonder if that's what nwg was running into (lots of ripping error, pack headers missing etc). His second rip was working though...
How do you turn "structural protection off" in decrypter?
jeanl

My realised first rip was working in MS as well despite the Decrypter errors. As I haven't watched the DVD yet. I didn't realise what I had to click on in the menu to get it to work.

The first rip failed to open in Shrink due to a couple of corrupted vob's. I still don't know what caused that.

I try anything that anyone can come up with to get a decent Decrypter rip without errors.

[blutach]

@jeanl - structural protection is like ARccOS and the trick of bad sectors plus rubbish like changing end byte in VTS_VOBU_ADMAP.

You can turn DVD Decrypter's structural protection checking off in its Tools-Settings-General Menu (Check for structure protection).

Regards

[nwg]

Spiderman won't have structural protection as it is too old.

I did re-rip again with structural protecion off anyway to see what happens.

I get the same errors

I get loads of these errors.

W 11:01:56 Sector 1808785 - Pack Header Not Found (0xE32E4EAA)

I noticed there is a hide pack header option. This is turned on in the settings.

[sweetness]

checked it out with the special edition and it seem to work OK with the old version.
BTW that menu is unique, the button highlights move. first time seeing that.
have to look into it more and learn something. well try to anyways. :p

[jeanl]

Originally posted by sweetness
checked it out with the special edition and it seem to work OK with the old version.
BTW that menu is unique, the button highlights move. first time seeing that.
have to look into it more and learn something. well try to anyways. :p
Woaw! That's interesting!!! One way to get moving highlights is to put many SPUs (it's not the only way, but it's one way) and I was expecting to see something like that in my version, but I didn't see that, the highlights are fixed.
I would love to take a look at it. I'm not sure the most recent version of MS will handle such cases well. For example, if you still without audio, MS (and vobblanker) produce a single VOBU, and I don't think you'll see the highlights move in that case...

Were your highlights moving after MS? (I seriously doubt it).
jeanl

[goonix]

Have tried Spiderman R2 using MenuShrink 2.07 with and without audio.
Works perfectly but the moving highlights are steady now in both cases (as you expected). Only one of the three alternating subpictures is shown.

Thank you for this great tool!

goonix

[jeanl]

Originally posted by goonix
Have tried Spiderman R2 using MenuShrink 2.07 with and without audio.
Works perfectly but the moving highlights are steady now in both cases (as you expected). Only one of the three alternating subpictures is shown.

Thank you for this great tool!

goonix
AH! Thanks a bunch for the feedback goonix! Moving highlights, this is a new one to me! At least I'm glad some of the highlights work in the MS output!
Jeanl

[nwg]

Originally posted by goonix
Have tried Spiderman R2 using MenuShrink 2.07 with and without audio.


Did you rip it with DVD Decrypter first? Any errors show up?

[jeanl]

goonix, out of curiosity, try version 1.0 on it, keeping audio. I bet you'll see the animated highlights!
In 2.0 and above, I changed the way the highlights were distributed in the cell: I moved them all in the first VOBU (even in the keep-audio mode). This is fine where highlights are not animated, because there's (usually) only one subpic unit (SPU) and putting it in the first VOBU along with the button definition ensures the highlights show up right away.
But in this case, there's so many of them, that if you move them all in the first VOBU, there's a buffer underrun (I think this is what happens on my sampo) and the menu does not show! Version 2.07 only puts the 4 first SPUs in the first VOBU (and simply discards the other ones! BAD!). This means that you don't get animated subpics.

I think the right strategy, when you keep audio, is to keep the first SPU in the first VOBU, and leave the following ones where they were originally. This way, highlights show up right away, and you get the animation.
When you don't keep the audio, I don't think we can keep the animation! (mpucoder, correct me if I'm wrong). Although I guess I could also keep all the subpic packs with their navpacks, but you can hardly call that a still! I think it's OK to only keep the first one in the hope that there will be some useful highlights in there...

Tricky tricky!
jeanl

[jsoto]

goonix, out of curiosity, try version 1.0 on it, keeping audio. I bet you'll see the animated highlights! Same with VobBlanker, isn't it?
jsoto

[jeanl]

I haven't checked but I suspect you're right. It should be the same with vobblanker, at least in audio mode.
jeanl

[goonix]

@Jeanl

I've tested it with Menushrink 1.0. "Remove 'stop' in subpics" and "Skip intro/clips" checked.
----
First test was done with an intro clip leading to a still menu with audio and animated highlight.
The menu has two cells, the menu intro clip and the still menu itself.
Before using Menushrink, both cells have a still time of 0.
Only the second cell has a cell command "LinkTopPG".
PgcEdit shows no buttons in cell 1 and 7 buttons in cell 2.

If I keep the audio, then the highlight is animated and the audio starts over after 29 sec like the orginal. Looks good.
PgcEdit shows now 7 buttons in cell 1 and 7 buttons in cell 2.
Both cells have a still time of 0 and both cells have a cell command "LinkTopPG".

If I remove the audio, then the behaviour of the highlight is strange.
For the first 20 sec the highlight is animated, then for 29 sec the highlight stops, then for 20 sec the highlight is animated, then for 29 sec it stops, etc...
PgcEdit shows both cells have a still time of 29 and both cells have the cell command "LinkTopPG".
----
The second test was done on a menu with an intro clip, moving video background and animated highlight.
In original cell 1 has 0 buttons and cell 2 has 3 buttons.
Both cells have a still time of 0.
Cell 1 has the cell command "LinkPGN program 2" and cell 2 "LinkTopPG".

After shrinking with audio: The highlight is animated.
Both cells have 3 buttons.
Both cells have a still time of 0.
Cell 1 has the cell command "LinkPGN program 2" and cell 2 "LinkTopPG".

After shrinking without audio: The highlight is not animated, but sometimes it changes its state for a short time.
Both cells have 3 buttons.
Cell 1 has a still time of 30 and cell 2 has a still time of 29.
Cell 1 has the cell command "LinkPGN program 2" and cell 2 "LinkTopPG".

@Jsoto

Tested with VobBlanker 2001 only on the still menu with intro clip.
Motion2still keeping audio: Highlight is animated.
PgcEdit shows 0 buttons in cell 1 and 7 buttons in cell 2.
Cell still time is 0 in both cells and only cell 2 has the cell command.

Motion2still without audio: Highlight is not animated.
PgcEdit shows 0 buttons in cell 1 and 7 buttons in cell 2.
Cell still time is 5 for cell 1 and 29 for cell 2 and only cell 2 has the cell command.

@nwg

Yes I did the rip with DVDDecrypter 3540 without any errors.

Tests were done with PowerDVD 6.

goonix

[jeanl]

goonix, that was an extensive test! I can explain all this! (lucky!).
First, let me say that my version works exactly like that (R1, that is). I was mistaken in my first post when I said that all the subpic units were identical. They're not. I simply didn't spot that in subrip.
I checked again and indeed, the highlights are animated in the original! Now I know why there were so many SPUs.

As I explained, version 1.0 left the packs where they were in the original, even when stilling without audio. So, when there's no audio, what happens is that the cell is given a still time that's equal to its original duration. Playback goes like this:
- Cell plays normally for all its duration, highlights are animated, which is normal. There's simply a still and no audio.
- Then, the cell still time kicks in. Everything stops moving. The still lasts the original duration at which point the cell loops back to the beginning and the cycle starts again...

I can't really explain what happens in your second test. In any case, version 2.0 and above no longer behaves like that. Highlight animation is lost. And I don't think I'll put it back in, because in some weird cases, things would get worse (specifically, in those menus where buttons change definition in the middle and the second definition is the one we want, a bit complicated to explain, and not terribly interesting).
Anyway, thanks for all the extended tests!
Jeanl

[Zeul]

As a footnote to this. This disc has been the most complicated menu I have run across when tring to reauthor in Scenarist. And you are correct the highlights rotate creating an animated image. Bizarre. Anyhow glad to see other apps needed fixes aswell as mine :D

[goonix]

jeanl, you're right.

If I reduce a moving menu to a still menu, I waive the background animation to get a better quality of the main movie. So I can waive the animated highlight too. It isn't worth all the trouble. The functionality of the stilled menu under all circumstances is much more important.

I have created still menus in the past using a lot of tools, time and effort, because I like to have a scene selection menu, even if I only keep the main movie and omit all the extras. Your tool saves me a lot of time, but takes away a lot of fun (just kidding).

goonix

[r0lZ]

As a sidenote: PgcEdit do not currently handle these 'special' menus correctly. In the current version, a warning is displayed. But if you cancel the warning and open the menu in the editor, you will see only the first 'set' of the menu.
In the case of Spiderman, there are probably no differences between the 'sets', because the real differences are in the subpic packs, and the highlight status (which are not displayed by PgcEdit.)
In some other cases, the buttons commands (or even the buttons positions, colors...) do change in each set.
Take care. If you edit something in the editor, and you save the DVD, the whole menu will be overwrited by the edited set, and the other sets will be lost. You will therefore not see the animation in Spiderman anymore, and the buttons commands, positions, etc. will be the same for the whole menu.

[jeanl]

Originally posted by r0lZ
As a sidenote: PgcEdit do not currently handle these 'special' menus correctly. In the current version, a warning is displayed. But if you cancel the warning and open the menu in the editor, you will see only the first 'set' of the menu.
In the case of Spiderman, there are probably no differences between the 'sets', because the real differences are in the subpic packs, and the highlight status (which are not displayed by PgcEdit.)
In some other cases, the buttons commands (or even the buttons positions, colors...) do change in each set.
Take care. If you edit something in the editor, and you save the DVD, the whole menu will be overwrited by the edited set, and the other sets will be lost. You will therefore not see the animation in Spiderman anymore, and the buttons commands, positions, etc. will be the same for the whole menu.
Example: Lord of the Rings Return of the King R1. The button definition changes in the middle of the menu intro, with commands changing from LinkNextPg for all buttons to the actual "useful" button commands that are in the main menu....
Some DVDs are authored in very strange ways...
jeanl
P.S. r0lZ, one suggestion: If you didn't obliterate the "status" flag in all the navpacks, this would allow animated highlights to still work, and not change anything else compared to the way PgcEdit currently works. But since I know a grand total of 1 menu with animated highlights, I'm not sure this is worth the effort!

[r0lZ]

Good suggestion, jeanl. I'll will do it soon. Maybe with a dialog asking if you want to overwrite the highlight status (thus 'merging' all sets together) or to keep them unchanged.

[jeanl]

and we'll have exactly 1 DVD to test it with!!!!
I'll post a new thread to ask for more...
jeanl