DVDRebuilder & CCE 2.50 - Over compressing

[3ncrypted]

I've been using DVDRB 0.72 and CCE 2.50, and I've been getting end results that are 4.0 gb or less. It doesn't happen all the time, but it does happen quite a bit. I just updated to DVDRB 0.80 today, but haven't tried it yet. Would CCE 2.50 be causing my problems? Or is there something else I'm doing wrong? I know it's not a big deal, but it seems that if CCE would compress to 4.33gb that I would get a little better quality than compressing down to 4.0gb.

My DVDRB settings are:
- VBR_bias= 25
- Quality Prec= 16
- VBR Passes= 6
- Using 1 click mode
- Dynamically assign Cell Bitrates
- 25% Quality drop on extras


BTW, I'm NOT using "One Pass VBR w/ analysis" when I have this problem. However I do use "One pass VBR..." sometimes and the main reason I'm still using CCE 2.50 is because someone told me that it's much faster than the newer CCE versions when using "One pass VBR". Is that correct?

Thanks

[Fishman0919]

CCE SP 2.50 is not the problem. Make sure you are use the dgdecode.dll file that comes with DVD-RB as your decoder.

It would be helpful if you could post a copy of your rebuilder.ini file.

CCE SP 2.50 is faster on AMD cpu's and CCE SP 2.66 and up is faster on P4's


- VBR Passes= 6

that may be a little to much, try 2 passes till you get the size you are looking for

Edit: are you using VobBlanker or something before you do the movie with DVD-RB

[3ncrypted]

Thanks for your help.

What I actually do most of the time is run a movie thru CloneDVD with no compression to rip the extras, and keep the menu, etc.. Then I mount that .iso and run DVDRebuilder. I've used this method many many times and haven't had any problems.

Also... no I don't use VOB blanker or anything else.

Here is what's in my DVDRB ini file:


[Options]
AudioDub=0
idct7Opt=1
CCE=0
RemoveDTS=0
BackColor=12632256
Completed=90
OneClick=1
NoWarn=1
Skin=Rockas Original
ReduceOpt=1
Reminder=90
[CCEOptions]
OPV=0
VBR_bias=25
Quality_prec=16
eclPasses=6
[Paths]
Source=
CCE250=C:\Program Files\DVD-RIP\EclCCE\EclCCE.exe
MPEG2DEC=C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\MPEG2Dec3dg.dll
DECOMB=C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\Decomb511.dll
Working=C:\DVDBUILD\MOVIETITLE2\
Output=J:\BUILD\BUILD2\
[Setup]
sLanguage01000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
Language01000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
[Audio]
Selected=

[Fishman0919]

Try not mounting the ISO and use files, I can use files or ISO but my friend can not get ISO's to work right... we have the same computer, same setup but ISO's are a NO GO for him...DVD-RB works prefect for him using files.

[3ncrypted]

Ok.. I might give files a try. However, I have backed up 100+ using this setup and .iso has always worked fine.

For what it's worth, out of curiosity I ran one of the movies in question thru DVDRB using "One Pass VBR" and the end result was 3.91gb.(Size before DVDRB is 6.34gb)

[pg55555]

Try changing your decoder to DGDecode.dll (version) 1.1 as your decoser.

Post a copy of the Preepare phase of oyur log.

Better:
Delete all your installation and made ca clean one using Rockas installer.

[3ncrypted]

Ok I switched to the "DGDecode.dll" decoder. I ran the same disc thru DVDRB last night, and the final result's size is the same as before.

Also...here is a copy of the Preparation part of the log:

[23:26:26] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- "Steal Space from Extras" mode is enabled.
- VTS_07: 602,034 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 43,873 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_08: 605,286 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 43,875 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_09: 613,322 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 43,857 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_10: 672,475 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 43,870 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- VTS_11: 668,087 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 46,620 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 63.2%
- Overall Bitrate : 3,315Kbs
- Space for Video : 3,748,182KB
- Movie improvement from extra reduction = 91.9%
- HIGH/LOW/AVERAGE Cell Bitrates: 7,864/1,178/3,315 Kbs
[23:29:55] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 3 minutes.

[pg55555]

Reduction Level for DVD-5: 63.2%
Movie improvement from extra reduction = 91.9%
Here is the root of your problem. The Steal Space from extras reduces the extras so much that there is an excess of bitrate for the main movie (63.2%*1.919=121%). As the main movie can not use more than 100%, the DVD came undersize.

An aproximate example with your case:
VTS_7 to VTS_11 are 3160 sectors = aprox 6.3GB
Space for video 3.7GB, implies audio, subs and menues aprox 1.0GB (4.7-3.7)
As compression is 63%, implies source is pure video source is (3.7/63%)=5.9GB, so audio in the VTS to be compressed is 0.4 GB, or 7%.
As Steal Space from Extras is selected,RB selects the larger VTS (VTS_10)as the main movie an all the other as extras.
VTS 7, 8, 9 and 11 amount to 2488 sectors = aprox 5.0GB.
Minus 7% of audio and 63% compression = target 2.9 GB of video.
But with 25% Steal, it would be freeing bitrate equivalent to 0.7 G, remaining 2.2 GB of video in extras.
VTS_10 have 672 sectors = 1.3 GB. Minus audio and 63% compression the target is 0.8 GB of video. With the bitrate freed by the Steal .. it woud have been 1.5 GB of video + audio 0 1.6 GB, larger than the original. But this cant be. It can only be equal to the source as a maximun
So we have:
VTS_10 video = source = 1.2GB
Extras (VTS 7,8,9,11)= 2.2GB
Menues, audio, small VTS= 1.0 GB
Total output = 4.4 GB, a 6% undersized versus DVD5 4.7 GB limit

NOTE: ALL FIGURES ARE APROXIMATED AND BASED ON 1 GB= ONE MILLON KB, so the 4.7 GB DVD5 size instead of 4.37 GB. Also I do not have the info of the exact menus and audio sizes.

FINAL: From the structure of your source it seems it is an episodic DVD, so VTS 7,8,9 and 11 are not actually extras but part of the main feature. REMEMBER: as RB consider the main movie is the LARGEST VTS and all the other VTS are extras, you must be very carefull using the Steal.. and Half D1.. settings with episodic sources

[3ncrypted]

Ouch.. I didn't know "steal" would actually hurt my episode DVD's. I'm just going to disable that feature because I never have any extras except the menu.(if that is even considered an extra)

I've done quite a few episode DVD's and luckily the finished product has looked good. However, for most of those backups I haven't viewed the entire disc.(just looked at a few chapters) I can't believe I've backed up as many discs as I have and not realized "steal" was actually hurting my end result. I know some of the episode discs I've backed up had the episodes as one big VTS, but most of the time the episodes are in individual VTS files.

Don't know if it has hurt my discs enough to where I would need to redo all of them. Guess I'll have to go back and check. But at least I know now that I should disable steal.

Thanks for all your help.

[pg55555]

Menus are not extras and are not encoded at all, just copied.

Regarding the quality of the episodes treated as extras, you have to watch them to see if they are aceptable or not.

In your case, you have gotten an avrage bitrate of 3315. So, with Stael at 25%, those episodes should have a bitrate of 2486, a little on the low side, but watchable if you used CCE an are not very picky.

[3ncrypted]

Went thru all my discs and amazingly only 13 discs could have been affected by the "steal" option. That's good because I thought it was going to be more like 50+.

Is there a way I can check the bitrate on the 13 discs to see whether I should redo them? Or would that only be available in the log when I did the backup. Because sometimes I think my eyes are too forgiving, so I don't always trust them.

This is off topic, but what do you look at when you're looking at the quality on screen? Any specific colors, etc.. that show worse when more compression is used?

EDIT: Any reason to upgrade from CCE 2.50 to 2.67?

[3ncrypted]

Should the end result (from DVDRB & CCE 2.50) always be 4.33gb? Or will the end result size vary? For example, I just checked the final size for a backup I ran over-night, and it's 4.19gb.(Before size was 6.06gb--movie and menu only)

[SpazzHH]

Originally posted by 3ncrypted
(Before size was 6.06gb--movie and menu only)

Is that the size of the entire DVD or just the size of the Main Movie + Menus? Remember that you can't go over 100%.

[Fishman0919]

I've used CCE 2.50 w/ DVD-RB on over 250 movies and all my movies end up around 4.32-4.34...always

I have done 7 movies with CCE 2.50 and Main Movie + Menus only...all 7 movies are 4.33 with one being 4.34

[3ncrypted]

It's another episode DVD. The 6.06gb is the size of 4 episodes+menu. When I open it in DVDRebuilder, it shows:

Episode1= 1,681mb
Episode2= 1,681mb
Episode3= 1,260mb
Episode4= 1,326mb
So the episodes alone total 5,948mb.

BTW, I'm not using the "Steal" option, and I'm not using "one Pass VBR".

Fishman0919, my experience has been the same as yours. In the past, every time I remember checking... the sizes were either 4.33 or 4.34gb.(mostly 4.33) That's why I'm wondering about this 4.19gb.

Thanks

EDIT: Should I not be using the option "Dynamically Assign Cell Bitrates"?

[3ncrypted]

I donated today and just downloaded DVDRebuilder 0.84.1 Pro and I see that "Dynamically Assign Cell Bitrates" is no longer available under the "mode" menu. I haven't ran a backup with this new Pro version, but could "Dynamically Assign Cell Bitrates" in the free version have caused my final result to be 4.19gb?

I am no longer using the "Steal" option for episode DVD's, but now I don't understand this 4.19gb backup. Never have had size problems in the past, except occassionally when using "One Pass VBR".

[pg55555]

"Dynamically Assign Cell Bitrates" is no longer available under the "mode" menu

It is not because it should be ALWAYS selected, and so jdobbs choose to eliminate the option to unselect it. Now it is On by default.

If you read the changelog of RB 0.84.1 you wil note some comments about now checking for "missing frames" in some m2v files which resulted in small outputs. This problem was common with HBO titles, as the "noise" in the HBO logo troubles CCE VBR routine (your episode DVD is a HBO title?). Supposelly it was a problem with 2.70, and shouldnt be present in 2.50, but maybe it is whatr it was happening to you.

If so, when run through RB 0.84.1 you can get a "missing frames" error in the rebuild stage. If it happens, dont worry, a workaround is being developed por jdobbs for the next version, or you can give a try to the HC encoder, which does not gives such problem (it is a CCE glitch, not a RB one)

[3ncrypted]

Oh ok.. thanks for letting me know pg55555. I guess that means it("Dynamically Assign Cell Bitrates") isn't what could be causing my problem.

I just ran a movie thru DVDRB 0.84.1 Pro, but I used One pass VBR. It ended up being 3.79gb.

I guess the only thing I can try is another version of CCE?

BTW, my movie (the one that ended up at 4.19gb) is not an HBO movie.

[pg55555]

Any preprocessing? Also, remember that OPV does not assures size. Try with 2 passes.

I do not see that changing CCE version would help. but you can try.

Remember 2.5 is faster in Athlons XP

[3ncrypted]

I know One Pass VBR doesn't guarantee size, but I just thought I'd run a movie that way because it was quick.(67 minutes)

As far as pre-processing, the movie I just did (with one pass vbr) had no pre-processing. The movie that I'm mainly asking about (that ended up 4.19gb) was run thru CloneDVD just to rip .iso to hard drive with Menu and movie only(no compression). I've used CloneDVD for that for a long time and haven't had any problems.

I'm using a P4 3.0c, but I'd still like to stick with 2.50 if I can. Is it possibly normal to get output of 4.19gb sometimes? Or should the end result be 4.33gb or 4.32gb every time?

[Fishman0919]

I know One Pass VBR doesn't guarantee size, but I just thought I'd run a movie that way because it was quick.(67 minutes)

True, you don't always get the size you want but that is the trade off... not always the size you want for speed.

Is it possibly normal to get output of 4.19gb sometimes? Or should the end result be 4.33gb or 4.32gb every time?

Did you just anwser that? ;)

[3ncrypted]

Fishman0919, not sure how I answered my own question... could you clue me in?:confused: Just so you know(and you might already), I wasn't asking if you should get 4.33gb or 4.32gb end results for "one pass w/vbr" builds. I was asking about the size of regular 4 or 6 pass builds.

[Fishman0919]

Yes, If you don't play with the target settings and everything is working the way it should you should get 4.32 - 4.33 with 2-100 passes...Yes I did a 100 pass movie with CCE SP 2.70.02. To me it looked the same as 2 passes (viewing with 2 65" HD TV's next to each other with the movies playing at the same time)....the moral of my little OT is to me 2passes is as good as 100 passes and I need sleep :scared:

[pg55555]

3ncrypted
The movie without preprocessing was done with OPV
The movie done with VBR was preprocessed with Clone DVD

In both cases you canot guarantee size.

Guarantee (or almost) size: Not preprocessing and CCE multipass (2 pass is enogh)

[3ncrypted]

So I can't pre-process movies before running them thru DVDRB? (ex. remove extras, etc..)? Is there a way I can remove the extras a "better" way that will work correctly with DVDRB? Why won't CloneDVD rips work correctly? I know DVDRB pro will remove extras, but what about people that pre-process and do not have the pro version of DVDRB? What is the recommended way to remove extras, etc..?

Thanks for your help.

[pg55555]

MOST OF THE TIMES (ie 95%/99%)you preprocess with Vobblanker /Shrink / DVDRemake and there is not going to be problems with RB.

Sometimes, there it cames a source that when preprocessed caused problems. The reasons can so many that jdobbs has stated he is not going to support "self-inflected" (pre-processed) problems.
So in those cases just try a non-processed source. If the problem pérsists, then post your problem, staing that it happened in an no pre-processed source.

Regarding your problem: output being 4.19 instead of 4.32 I would call it a "very little diminute small" issue :D

[3ncrypted]

pg55555, thanks for all your help. And yeah I think the 4.19gb build is definitely sufficient.:D Just wanted to see if there was something I should address before moving on to doing other backups.

I've actually got a job going right now with an older version of DVDRB (curious to see if older version would work) and I'm doing 2 passes. I've always done 6 because I'd read that that was about the best setting. So bascially I only get one movie backed up nightly. But if you say 2 passes is the same as doing 6 passes, then I will gladly do only 2.:) Don't know how long 2 passes take, but I'm sure it's much quicker than 6.

[3ncrypted]

Well just so you know... ran the "4.19gb movie"(the original) thru DVDRB 0.72 w/ 2 passes and the size ended up being 4.19gb again.:D So it's not a DVDRB version issue.

Comparing that build to the 6 pass build and I'm not seeing any quality differences. Just curious...do most users here on the forum run 2 passes?

[gizzin]

I use six, but on most sources if the bitrate is sufficient enough use 2 if you want to save time

[3ncrypted]

gizzin, what bitrate values do you go by.(consider acceptable) I figure you probably have a little "system" of what you consider good enough for 2 passes, 6 passes, etc..

And I guess if you do 6 passes, that means you can tell a difference between 6 passes and 2. I have a bad eye for judging quality, so I usually go by other people's advice/experience.

I did a 2 pass build this morning with the new DVDRB Pro 0.85, and it ended up being 4.31gb. Below is the preparation log for it:
[06:24:34] Phase I, PREPARATION started.
- CCE SP 2.50 encoder selected.
- VTS_01: 3,455,749 sectors.
-- Scanning and writing .D2V file
-- Processed 208,456 frames.
-- Building .AVS and .ECL files
- Reduction Level for DVD-5: 62.7%
- Overall Bitrate : 3,862Kbs
- Space for Video : 4,099,260KB
- HIGH/LOW/TYPICAL Bitrates: 3,866/3,843/3,862 Kbs
[06:32:26] Phase I, PREPARATION completed in 8 minutes.

Would you consider the above a good and acceptable bitrate?

I know you consider a 6 pass build better than a 2 pass, but would you say that a "2 pass" build with CCE & DVDRB would be better than the same movie transcoded in Shrink at approx 64%-75%?(pretty sure that's a definite yes, but wanted to check)

[pg55555]

The number of passes issue!!!

There have been, and continuous to have, a lot of discussion about it.

When I started with RB & CCE I have read that the people that makes CCE said in same place (manual?) that practically all the quality was obtained with just 2 passes (1+1). That the following passes provide just minimum quality improvement. And that after 5 passes there were not quality improvement. So I setted for 5 passes, each pass taking around 1 hour in my P4 2.8.

Afterwards there were a very interesting thread in this forum, with Sir Didymus running quantitative analysis of quality (defined as difference with the source) of different number of passes using a tool developed for one of those MIT (or like) crazy scientists). The outcome: according with that tool, making more than 2 passes is a waste of time, an sometimes you lose quality. And OPV, for the same output size, gives the same quality or better than 9 passes.

So, being conservative, I changed to 3 passes (1+2) and Im very happy.

My advice is, do as many passes as you like, but when you encounter a problem and have to reencode, use just 2 passes: No because with 2 passes your are going to solve the problem, just because it going to take less time to know if the problem have been solved.

[3ncrypted]

I was mainly running CCE while I was asleep, so I figured if I'm going to be sleeping for at least 6 hours anyway, might as well have it run 6 passes. That's the only reason I ran that many.

When you said you changed to 3 passes (1+2), does that mean for your "2 passes" I need to actually put 3 in the CCE advanced settings? Because I only put "2" in there. Took approx 120 minutes to complete.

I'm going to try and find that thread by Sir Didymus. Sounds like a great thread for someone like me to read

BTW, I was asking gizzin about how he decided on when to use a certain number of passes. So I wasn't trying to stir up a "2 pass vs X passes" thread.:eek: From reading various threads here on the doom9 forum, I can tell the whole "number of passes" topic is a touchy subject. Kind of like the intel vs. amd topic.

Thanks

[pg55555]

In CCE (and RB) the first pass is not actually encoding (cerating a m2v file) analyzing the input and creating the .vaf file that is used for the encoding in the following path (the second path). So I was using the convention of 2 passes = 1+1 in CCE, as the first is for such .vaf file creation.

And 3 passe = 1+2 (one for vaf and two for encoding)