Optimal settings for CCE

[Vanderlow]

Anyone want to comment what the think the optimal settings (best quality without wasting a whole lot of time) are for CCE 2.70 in the custom settings? 3 pass vbr or more etc ...

[drcl]

imho....
3 passes is the max needed.

0 on the bias to get the biggest bitrate curve expansion.

Leave the quality prec at the default.

[onesoul]

To add drcl, the less bitrate you have available to encode movie the more is needed to increase bias from 0 to get a more constant quality ouput, this is because under certain bitrate some scenes can get bad quality.

[QuantumLeap]

Originally posted by onesoul
To add drcl, the less bitrate you have available to encode movie the more is needed to increase bias from 0 to get a more constant quality ouput, this is because under certain bitrate some scenes can get bad quality.

Could you explain that. The FAQ in this forum mentioned that increasing the bias from 0 moves you toward a CBR rather than a constant quality.

I'm not a CCE expert, but it would seem to make sense to leave it at zero and let CCE determine the best distribution in a variable manner.

[Fishman0919]

From the CCE SP User’s Guide

2.9.4 V/C (VBR/CBR) : Fluctuation of the bit
allocation
In VBR streams, Cinema Craft Encoder SP performs bit allocation
balancing the quality of image on its own valuation basis. The valuation
basis can be changed by V/C value between 0 and 100. The
initial value is 30. As V/C becomes smaller, a stream becomes more
like VBR keeping the quality of the image with heavily up and downin bitrate. As V/C becomes larger, a stream becomes even like CBR
keeping the bitrate constant but without stability of the image quality.
 It is not applied to CBR stream.
 When the distortion of complicated part is more noticeable than
that of flat part, smaller V/C value may improve image quality
of complicated part. On the other hand, when the distortion
of flat part is more noticeable, larger V/C value may bring the
better result. Although you can also adjust the setting for a
certain part of the footage one by one at Local bitrate setting in
VBR bit allocation (see page 55), V/C parameter can change the
bit allocation through the footage more effectively at a time.

[onesoul]

Originally posted by QuantumLeap
Could you explain that. The FAQ in this forum mentioned that increasing the bias from 0 moves you toward a CBR rather than a constant quality.

I'm not a CCE expert, but it would seem to make sense to leave it at zero and let CCE determine the best distribution in a variable manner. I'll try to explain my point of view, like I said before if you are dealing with low bitrates like ~2000 kbps (could be applied on higher bitrates depending on content) and bias is 0, the bitrate distribution will be given to the more complicated scenes which it would prejudice the non so complicated scenes. That is why that selecting bias above 0 would help to mantain some constant quality, because the trade off of extreme bitrate distribuition using bias 0 could be worse to the overall output and image stability wouldn't exist. Why do you think the default bias from cce is 30 btw (DVD-RB is 25 I think), if weren't for that, bias should always be 0.

And don't forget that until bias reachs 100 it is still using VBR.

[FarCry]

i am using bias 25 and prec/quality 24 and 4 passes. for movies of average bitrate around 5000 is that concidered to be good?

[t3rror]

I don't claim to know what I am talking about, as I just hap-hazardly pay attention to the bitrate settings when I am making backups, but I believe an avg bitrate of 5000 is pretty high. When I am backing up DVD-9 movies, I believe that my avg bitrate is somewhere in the 1800-2200 range.

What does everyone else think about this?

[FarCry]

yes i have back up all ster trek new generation movies and they are around 5000 average birate. i remove all the extras and extra audio. i keep only the main movie and sometimes the menus. only if its not an impact in quality i put extras like cut scenes etc

[onesoul]

Originally posted by FarCry
i am using bias 25 and prec/quality 24 and 4 passes. for movies of average bitrate around 5000 is that concidered to be good? I believe those settings are just fine, although with that bitrate you could reduce somewhat bias but I wouldn't worry about it, the difference would be almost negligible.

[Rockas]

i am using bias 25 and prec/quality 24 and 4 passes. for movies of average bitrate around 5000 is that concidered to be good?

I would only reduce the number of passes to 3 or 2 :)

@onesoul
OT: I never noticed that you are portuguese too... congratulations!!!:D

[onesoul]

Indeed, it would suffice 2 or 3 passes including the creation of vaf file.

@Rockas

LOL, thanks, I think :D I don't know how that happened eheh.
Your visual design of dvd-rb is pretty neat btw :)

[johnruiz]

Originally posted by drcl
imho....
3 passes is the max needed.

including the .vaf file, 1 + 2 passes?

[drcl]

Vandeflow asked for the settings to use.

I put a 3 in the DVD rebuilder 0.80 VBR passes in CCE advanced settings dialogue. So yes 1 + 2.

Using an earlier version (not sure when the change was made) would require a 2 to be used.

[FarCry]

can you tell if bitrate is 4000 or 3000 then what?

[raddygast]

My Prec/Quality is set to 16 (default I believe). Should I bump that up to 24? I really have no idea what it does.

In fact when it comes to encoder settings, I'm clueless. I tried using RB Opt to lower the bitrate on the final cell in THE PIANIST. This was the credits, but the credits roll over a video of the guy playing piano (just his hands). There is a lot of movement obviously. I lowered bitrate from 3000 or so to 2000, and suddenly it looks like utter crap. I mean, seriously pixelated. So so bad compared to other output I've seen (from DVD-RB / CCE) at 2000 or even lower bitrate.

So I am wondering if my bias and quality settings have something to do with it? Or if I should have selected another matrix for such a low bitrate?

I wish someone on this forum would post their own personal "recommended" list of matrices and CCE settings for various video types and bitrate ranges.

[SpazzHH]

From the CCE SP users guide:


Preset matrices and their characteristics are the following :
• Standard
Cinema Craft Encoder SP sets this one as a standard matrix. It
is the matrix which was used for the evaluation of the MPEG-2
international standard algorithm. For natural images, it will be
appropriate.
• MPEG standard
This one is a default matrix under the MPEG-2 international
standard. If Standard does not work as fine as you expected,
it may help you to improve the quality of image with higher
bitrate.
• Smooth (CG etc.)
It will be appropriate for smooth and less noise sources like CG.
• Very low bitrate
It is intended to be used when encoding NTSC or PAL conformed
source with the bitrate of 4 Mbps or less.
• Ultra low bitrate
It is intended to be used when encoding NTSC or PAL conformed
source with the bitrate of 2 Mbps or less. Note that you
cannot always lower the bitrate as you would like. How far you
can lower the bitrate depends on your source.


Keep in mind this is just a guide, a pretty good one, but just a guide.Don't be afraid to encode small clips with your encoder when your not using RB, just to see what effect the different matrices have on your own personal tastes. Don't forget, these are YOUR backups !!!

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by raddygast
My Prec/Quality is set to 16 (default I believe). Should I bump that up to 24? I really have no idea what it does.

In fact when it comes to encoder settings, I'm clueless. I tried using RB Opt to lower the bitrate on the final cell in THE PIANIST. This was the credits, but the credits roll over a video of the guy playing piano (just his hands). There is a lot of movement obviously. I lowered bitrate from 3000 or so to 2000, and suddenly it looks like utter crap. I mean, seriously pixelated. So so bad compared to other output I've seen (from DVD-RB / CCE) at 2000 or even lower bitrate.

So I am wondering if my bias and quality settings have something to do with it? Or if I should have selected another matrix for such a low bitrate?

I wish someone on this forum would post their own personal "recommended" list of matrices and CCE settings for various video types and bitrate ranges. The value 16 will be automatically adjusted to 24 on a 0-100 scale. It's best to leave it. If you want to get better output at a lower bitrate you may want to try a different matrix.

You can use the "Low Bitrate" matrix for the "Low Bitrate" setting, and I use the "Very Low Bitrate" matrix for the "Very Low Bitrate" setting.

[FarCry]

ok thanks. i didnt know about the different matrixes. thanks:) no for 4000 bitrate i will try the Very low bitrate which:

It is intended to be used when encoding NTSC or PAL conformed
source with the bitrate of 4 Mbps or less.

[jdobbs]

Don't confuse the names of the Matrices with the ones listed in CCE! They can be named anything. The matrices I added are there based upon my experiences doing hundreds of DVDs. If you decide to second guess it, that's up to you.

[FarCry]

i think the pro version has your matrices. i have the free version so i will change the matrices in CCE. do you have anything else to recommend?

[jdobbs]

Yeah. Get the Pro version. :D

[FarCry]

thanks jdobbs i have send you a pm. read it please. i think its important

[raddygast]

I posted this somewhere else, but can't remember. Maybe it was another thread I hijacked.

Just wanted to find out... in the new pro version, your matrices (very low bitrate, and low bitrate) that can be set for various settings (main feature, extras, low bitrate <3Mbps, very low bitrate <2Mbps). Are they different from what CCE calls very low bitrate matrix and low bitrate matrix?

And if so, is that why after a prepare, if I use RB Opt to check CCE settings the matrix shows up as "Custom" on anything below 3 Mbps?

Just wanted to confirm that after a prepare, DVD-RB actually sets up the vobids with average bitrate below 3 (or 2) with the appropriate matrix.

Also, if you set main feature to encoder default (or actually set it to standard), will DVD-RB change the matrices for any of its cells, if any of those cells end up with an average bitrate of less than 3 Mbps?

[jdobbs]

Just wanted to find out... in the new pro version, your matrices (very low bitrate, and low bitrate) that can be set for various settings (main feature, extras, low bitrate <3Mbps, very low bitrate <2Mbps). Are they different from what CCE calls very low bitrate matrix and low bitrate matrix? Yes.

And if so, is that why after a prepare, if I use RB Opt to check CCE settings the matrix shows up as "Custom" on anything below 3 Mbps? Yes.

Just wanted to confirm that after a prepare, DVD-RB actually sets up the vobids with average bitrate below 3 (or 2) with the appropriate matrix. Yes.

[raddygast]

Thanks jdobbs. That clears almost everything up, except:

Does DVD-RB alter matrices for individual cells within a vobid/titleset? For example if the main movie is all one VTS, autosized, etc., avg. bitrate above 3 Mbps, it will have standard as its matrix. If I go to Tweak Cells in RB Opt (have to turn off autosize) and see say that the last cell, the credits, is 2500 Mbps, will RB have already changed the matrix for it, or does it not do it on a cell level?

If so, in that case it can be done manually. Just want to know what I should be looking for. Thanks for making these matrices by the way, they help a huge amount because I had major headaches trying to understand what was what. I'll just stick with your experience.

[Rockas]

and see say that the last cell, the credits, is 2500 Mbps
That example is the only situation that occurs to me that may be helpfulf to do some tweaking on a cell... but... with the PRO version you can always turn it into a slide show or bla(n)k it :)

[raddygast]

The Pro version only presents the elements in all non-feature titlesets for blanking/slideshowing purposes. I don't think you can do any of that stuff to the main bits of a feature titleset.

[jdobbs]

Does DVD-RB alter matrices for individual cells within a vobid/titleset? For example if the main movie is all one VTS, autosized, etc., avg. bitrate above 3 Mbps, it will have standard as its matrix. If I go to Tweak Cells in RB Opt (have to turn off autosize) and see say that the last cell, the credits, is 2500 Mbps, will RB have already changed the matrix for it, or does it not do it on a cell level? The matrix is set based upon the bitrate for each individual segment. Generally a segment is a cell, but it can be smaller.

[Rockas]

Originally posted by raddygast
The Pro version only presents the elements in all non-feature titlesets for blanking/slideshowing purposes. I don't think you can do any of that stuff to the main bits of a feature titleset.

Please... forgive my english... what do you mean by that?
That you can not blank/slide show cells of the main movie?

[raddygast]

I think so. I mean, when you go to the video/segment editor, it only presents segments that are outside of the biggest (main film) titleset, if I am not mistaken.

[Rockas]

Have you checked a menu called "Options" on "Preview" dialog? :D

[FarCry]

now that i have DVD-RB PRO i have some questions and i need some answers.

ok here we go:

which is better the encoder or the MPEG standard matrix? what about the smooth matrix? when bitrate is high say 5MBPS which of these 3 should i select for better quality and why?

what about the GOP size? for PAL there are 2 choices. which should i prefer? which is the default?

What about the low bitrate matrix? in CCE says to be selected if bitrate is <=4 MBPS but in DVD-RB says <=3MBPS

last but not least what about the DC precision? in CCE manual says for DVD-VIDEO DC 10 is recommended. is this DVD-RB default value?

[Fishman0919]

which is better the encoder or the MPEG standard matrix?
Depends on what you are encoding, MPEG standard matrix is better for higher bitrates.

what about the smooth matrix? for CG(computer animated graphics) and real high bitrates.

when bitrate is high say 5MBPS which of these 3 should i select for better quality and why? if you are encoding with VBR, I would say MPEG standard matrix for "when bitrate is high say 5MBPS" but for CBR, smooth CG... I did some tests for dragongodz with QLB 1.0, 1.1 and 1.2 and I found that around 3750k bitrate and up the matrix really didn't matter (to me on a 65 inch HD TV)

what about the GOP size? for PAL there are 2 choices. which should i prefer? Larger GOP are good for low bitrate.

which is the default? I think in DVD-RB 12 is default

last but not least what about the DC precision? in CCE manual says for DVD-VIDEO DC 10 is recommended. is this DVD-RB default value? for CCE, 10 is default.. DC 10 should give you better video accuracy.