When will they make a Disc-presser for home use?

[ukb008]

Hi.

The experts tell us that commercially available DVDs are much better in terms of durability than the home-burnt ones.

I have no idea how big and costly are those wonderful machines that press DVDs in commercial production-lines, but is there any reason why they won't be miniaturized for home use?

Regards.

[adam]

Probably about 95% of the expense of pressing a DVD is making the master. Its really not cost efficient to press a DVD unless you press many copies, like several thousand, or plan to make a substantial amount of copies in the future. Its not something that would be practical for a home user.

I'd guess that the equipment needed to complete the entire pressing process would cost several million dollars at least.

[DigitAl56K]

I think the problem is that the glass mastering system as well as the system used to bond and seal the discs rather than change the subsurface structure of a disc via laser that has already been plated and bonded makes it impractical to minaturize for home use.

The industry would probably view any minaturization as a means to less detectable piracy and so it's unlikely you will ever see it. Of course, there are probably improvements that can be made in the way that consumer DVD-R's etc. can be improved to make them more reliable, such as changing the materials used and the protective layers applied (e.g. applying DURABIS from TDK/Blu-ray back to DVD's).

[ukb008]

Several million dollars? Boy, that's awful. But to think that that is going to be the deterrant, I can't really accept that because too many examples of such developments elsewhere come to mind. This will also happen, maybe in an as-yet unforseeable future?

Can you give me a link about the Blue-Ray Back ? I'm, in the mean time, going to the TDK site to nose around for Durabis.

Regards.

**************************************

This is about 40 minutes later:

Sorry, the TDK site doesn't have anything called Durabis.

Regards.

[cypher_soundz]

take a look on google ;)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=DURABIS&btnG=Search&meta=
Regards
cyph

[mpucoder]

This is as ridiculous as wanting to press vinyl records at home. The process is very similar, and both are very smelly (have you ever smelled hot vinyl?). What about miniaturizing the offset press? Everyone knows offset is better than laser or inkjet.

[DigitAl56K]

Yes, Google is the best way to go. Here is one link:

http://www.tdk.co.jp/teaah01/aah14600.htm

[ukb008]

Thanks, Mr Moderator (mpucoder).

Yes, there are hurdles. Printing itself was very laborious and messy, in Gutenberg's time. Now we can do it cleanly. True, the offset press isn't too portable, and probably will not be for some time. That's what the future is for. It holds promises. There's no tax on dreams (yet), so what stops one from indulging in some wishful thinking?

And thank you, cypher_soundz. Funny, I searched Durabis in TDK's homepage search, and found nothing. Your link tells me about Durabis that it is resistant to Scratches, Grime and Dust. But isn't it heat and light that are most injurious to the dye coatings on discs? What about that?

Thanks again, DigitAl56K.

Regards.

[Joe Fenton]

Originally posted by ukb008
Your link tells me about Durabis that it is resistant to Scratches, Grime and Dust. But isn't it heat and light that are most injurious to the dye coatings on discs? What about that?

Think about it logically. Any coating that will protect against light will prevent read-back of the disc (remember, the disc is read via beams of light), and nothing short of an thermoelectrically cooled case will protect against heat. Thinking a coating can protect against heat is like thinking a sweater can keep you cool in the summer. :D

Protection against light isn't needed unless you make a habit of leaving your discs lying dye-side up on tables in the sunlight for days on end. Protection against heat can't be handled without expensive and bulky equipment. So what you do try to protect against are the things that are more common and economical to fight: scratches and grime.

[ukb008]

Andy McFadden says in his esteemed CD-Recordable FAQ (http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq07.html#S7-5):

Exposing the disc to excessive heat, humidity, or to direct sunlight will greatly reduce the lifetime. In general, CD-Rs are far less tolerant of environmental conditions than pressed CDs, and should be treated with greater care...

Keep them in a cool, dark, dry place, and they will probably live longer than you do (emphasis on "probably"). Some newsgroup reports have complained of discs becoming unreadable in as little as three years, but without knowing how the discs were handled and stored such anecdotes are useless. Try to keep a little perspective on the situation: a disc that degrades very little over 100 years is useless if it can't be read in your CD-ROM drive today.

One user reported that very inexpensive CD-Rs deteriorated in a mere six weeks, despite careful storage. Some discs are better than others.

Allow me to quote from you:

Think about it logically. Any coating that will protect against light will prevent read-back of the disc (remember, the disc is read via beams of light), and nothing short of an thermoelectrically cooled case will protect against heat.

It's true, Sir, and at the same time, we need not think that protection and imperviousness are synonymous in this case. Protection might simply imply 'unalterability', i.e. light might just pass through it or get reflected from it, but not affect it; and so on for heat.

Regards.

[Mug Funky]

i'm thinking it'd make more sense to use different media that don't suffer the problems of disc based media... what media? i don't know. perhaps something similar to the hard disk, but without all those moving parts (and with some decent magnetic shielding). tape media is only good for backup or linear access, and discs tend to be not very permanent (to say nothing of their inconvenient shape - try putting a disc in your backpack and walk around a bit... see how long it lasts).

i've got high hopes for non-volatile RAM and similar technologies. imagine never needing to defragment because every part of the partition can be accessed in the same amount of time (so no matter how fragged it gets, performance wont change).

what i'd like is a storage medium that can survive having beer spilt on it. we're not quite there yet.

[Joe Fenton]

Originally posted by Mug Funky
what i'd like is a storage medium that can survive having beer spilt on it. we're not quite there yet.

CDRs and DVDRs don't react to beer at all. It's the DRIVES you have to be careful around. :D

[ukb008]

Mug Funky hasn't said anything about beer at all. He just used beer to illustrate his point. He wants newer materials, ones that are more resistant to the elements.

Just returning to Durabis, it is a TDK development to use in Blue-Ray discs. A disc running up to 25 GB presents a special problem in writing on it. At currently available speeds, it will take ages to fill up the Blue-Ray blank. One needs special coating materials that will withstand really high speed writing. Durabis is such a material.

Again, storage media have developed quite a bit, in sizes, shapes, materials and workmanship. The disc as we know it may not be there at all, some years down the line. The disc-presser will be irrelevent then.

The bottom line in what we all want is this: home archiving for keeps. The way technology is developing, this is becoming more and more difficult. My grandpa's vinyle collections outlasted him. I already have had to rebuild my collections three times; advent of Blue-Ray will usher in the pressure of obsolescence on my current DVD collection...

Regards.

[Joe Fenton]

Originally posted by ukb008
Mug Funky hasn't said anything about beer at all. He just used beer to illustrate his point. He wants newer materials, ones that are more resistant to the elements.

He might have meant something else, but I QUOTED what he said.

Just returning to Durabis, it is a TDK development to use in Blue-Ray discs. A disc running up to 25 GB presents a special problem in writing on it. At currently available speeds, it will take ages to fill up the Blue-Ray blank. One needs special coating materials that will withstand really high speed writing. Durabis is such a material.

I still remember when they claimed 6X was as fast as CDs would go because they'd fly apart at higher speeds. :D

The bottom line in what we all want is this: home archiving for keeps. The way technology is developing, this is becoming more and more difficult. My grandpa's vinyle collections outlasted him. I already have had to rebuild my collections three times; advent of Blue-Ray will usher in the pressure of obsolescence on my current DVD collection...

Get an old WORM drive.

[ukb008]

Now, you got me cornered, Joseph. What is a WORM drive? What does it do?

Regards.

[Joe Fenton]

Originally posted by ukb008
Now, you got me cornered, Joseph. What is a WORM drive? What does it do?

Regards.

Write Once Read Many - these actually used a high-power laser to burn holes in a metal disc. They were the precursors to CDRs. Some drives out mantain read compatibility with WORM media for people who had these things. You can still buy them from some dealers. Just do some googling.

[ukb008]

Ha! The idea seems so durable! Hole in metal = 1, No hole in metal = 0. When, after a few years of usage it starts to become all 000000000000000000000000....you just use a toothbrush and some mild household cleaner and you'd be in business as usual: 00101000010111000111010101.....!

I wonder why people run after the modern 2-minute noodles rather than developing/improving these oldies? I guess one reason is that if things become too durable, people will purchase less, and that will muffle the sound of the cash registers...

Regards.