Why is there so much support for patented formats?

[aliumalik]

Hi,
I was just wondering why is there so much support from the open source community for patented formats like H.264,MPEG-4 etc since using these is clearly illegal since most people don't pay the patent fee. If this effort was put into developing patent free formats like dirac/theora wouldn't that effort be more effective and useful? I was just curios and since a lot of devs hang around I thought I should ask this.
Thanks

[Doom9]

Isn't freedom of choice a wonderful thing?

Keep in mind that this isn't slashdot.. discussions like that (they had one on why write open source software for windows) definitely belong there.

since using these is clearly illegal since most people don't pay the patent fee.Wrong.. you might wanna study http://www.mpegla.com/index1.cfm some more.

[Elias]

Originally posted by aliumalik
Hi,
I was just wondering why is there so much support from the open source community for patented formats like H.264,MPEG-4 etc since using these is clearly illegal since most people don't pay the patent fee. If this effort was put into developing patent free formats like dirac/theora wouldn't that effort be more effective and useful? I was just curios and since a lot of devs hang around I thought I should ask this.
Thanks I think it's because these standards are more accepted from the movie industry and after all, as a result of this, they got a lot of hardware support, and if they don't, they're getting it. If theora etc had it, then probably no one would care about MPEG :D

Update: I just want to make it clear that in my opinion, MPEG rules; they know their stuff when it comes to digital audio/video compression. And no, I'm no fanboy.

[KpeX]

Another thing to remember is the difference between proprietary codecs and codecs that are patented but open standard. If a codec is open standard, even if falls under patents, it is much easier for open source devs to support it. You'll notice there's little OSS support for WMV9, RV10 (other than GUIs), or other proprietary formats compared to open standards like MPEG 1/2/4.

[sysKin]

From my experience, OSS developers simply develop stuff they need for themselves.

[Koepi]

Originally posted by sysKin
From my experience, OSS developers simply develop stuff they need for themselves.

Hehe. That's SO true. :)

[temporance]

We have this thread time and again.... :)

My usual 2p-worth is that there is no worthy video compression standard that is truely 100% patent-free. Even simple aspects of motion compensation are patented. If someone says xxx is patent free then they are either lying or deluded. I'll ask them to put their money where their mouth is and bet me $500 that I can't find a patent that affects their format!

[bond]

my 2 cents:

you have to also differentiate between patent-free and license-free

theora for example includes patented technologies, but is license free

[video]

aliumalik feel free to coming out with an alternative, but better video compression technology than mpeg :)

[Sirber]

Originally posted by sysKin
From my experience, OSS developers simply develop stuff they need for themselves. Totally agree :)

[aliumalik]

thanks for the replys guys...can anyone explain to me the legality of using xvid and x.264 I couldnt find those vids. I read in one of the posts above that using patented formats might not always be illegal.
Thanks

[Doom9]

I've already given you a pointer, that if you are really willing to find out, will be sufficient. Plus this forum has a search engine. I know for a fact that this topic has been discussed previously (also alledged by another poster in this thread), so searching is in order.

[morsa]

hERE IT IS:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89504&perpage=20&highlight=move%20xvid%20to%20theora&pagenumber=1

[video]

okay. it's xvid/x264 and mpeg4 bashing. Let me look at some other points. comapct disc format is fully protected with patents. so does dvds. if some develops software of course, open source for authoring audio cds or dvds, is that illegal or immoral? Please answer this before you're bashing open source mpeg codecs. then consider if cdrcecord, k3b, whatever is a copyright infrigment, then what about your home made CDs/DVDs authored thingies made esp with some of the open source tools you probabaly used for them?

it was told hundreds of times, that even base concepts of modern digital video encoding such as moving compensation, even jpeg is in some parts are patented by somewhere/someone.

rationale:
mpeg type codecs are having 20-30 years of base research before they evolved to standard at the beginning of '90-s. So if some may think to come out with an alternative, he/she have to find some hundred people worldwide spending one third their lives with research - of course for free. it wouldn't happen. people are forming families, getting babies and they have to support their families with food and goods, otherwise they will die. bottom line: they need money for living. these are the reasons why open source is nothing else, but free re-implementation of thecnologies what are developed in the past, for a while. of course, it doesn't mean that open source doesn't help evolving these technologies. open source helps making a commodity of these. and if the need is an mpeg4 codec, then that will be developed by talented open soure people.

[Elias]

Originally posted by video
mpeg type codecs are having 20-30 years of base research before they evolved to standard at the beginning of '90-s.You sure about this? That sounds heavily excessive imo.

[video]

Originally posted by Elias
You sure about this? That sounds heavily excessive imo.

just thace backward the citation indices of publications about mpeg:D good starting point: FFT/DCT use and computation first published 1964 AFAIK. huffman coding is more than 50 years old. trellis/viterbi: 1974 AT&T - 16QAM modems, etc, etc, etc. base idea of mpeg audio is figured out by music composers thousands years ago - not any kind of accords are good for a music, because of masking. human ear sensitvity: flecher-munson, somewhere 1920-1930 (?)

[Elias]

Originally posted by video
just thace backward the citation indices of publications about mpeg:D good starting point: FFT/DCT use and computation first published 1964 AFAIK. huffman coding is more than 50 years old. trellis/viterbi: 1974 AT&T - 16QAM modems, etc, etc, etc. base idea of mpeg audio is figured out by music composers thousands years ago - not any kind of accords are good for a music, because of masking. human ear sensitvity: flecher-munson, somewhere 1920-1930 (?) Damn... I'm not that into all the tecnical details, but that sounds incredible :)

[ChronoReverse]

A lot of the important computer algorithms and such were are developed in 60's and 70's when funding was still plentiful for stuff that don't yield immediate results (also applies to many other industries).

That's why we're reaping so much of the benefits now. Unfortunately, the research is no longer being funded like it used to be. It will come to pass a point where new technical achievements will probably slow down.