blended fields original ntsc=>pal want to make pal=>ntsc

[jhr1948]

hi i was told earlier by neuron2 that a dvd i had that is pal is blended fields. so i started going through threads to learn more.

i'm not sure if i was reading correctly, but i don't think i saw anyone trying to accomplish what i am trying to do.

my dvd is pal (blended fields) 25fps and apparantly this commercial release was just converted from a ntsc source(which is not sold otherwise i wouldn't go through all this trouble) to pal, but has blended fields.

i'm trying to convert this pal dvd back back to ntsc and can't figure out what the best way is to deinterlace blended fields. i know it comes down to preferrence, but i'd like to hear opinions if any. also, i know this sounds like its not worth it, but i tried xesdeeni's old script and the results seemed alright. i'm just trying to go for the pulldown that neuron2 made just recently so that i don't have to change the fps.

if this has been asked i apologized, i didn't find this question
thanks

[scharfis_brain]

if this soure originally was
NTSC FILM with 23.976 fps
or
NTSC progressive with 29.97 fps your chance to reconvert it to NTSC are realistic using restore24
(do a forums search for restore24 revisited)

but if the source was 59.94 fields/sec interlaced footage (typical for common video cameras), there is no way to convert it back to NTSC without introducing heavy losses.

The easiest would be, if you prove a short VOB sample somewhere to get a view on.

[Guest]

He put a clip on my server called "ripping friends clip.mpv".

[jhr1948]

hey thanks all again
i did see restore24 when searching for answers earlier. however, i'm a total noob when it comes to video at this level. so i wasn't sure if my video would benefit from or suffer from restore24.

is there a link to show how i could tell if this soure originally was
NTSC FILM with 23.976 fps
or
NTSC progressive with 29.97 fps

thanks for the help so far

[jhr1948]

any tips?
i can't seem to find any info on how to find out what ntsc fps this pal dvd is.

[Mug Funky]

you'll be able to tell from watching it - if the blending is obvious and the motion is very smooth, then it'll be 59.94 blended down to 50 for PAL.

man, i've seen sources where NTSC was converted to PAL, then back to NTSC, then back to PAL. there was barely any actual video left after all that.

is it possible to just leave it in PAL? or do you not have access to Multiformat TVs (they're ubiquitous in PAL countries, but apparently hard to come by in NTSC land. my suggestion to NTSC people is to import your TV from europe...).

[jhr1948]

thanks for the reply mug funky
i realized i was asking the wrong question, scharfis_brain told me:

"if this soure originally was
NTSC FILM with 23.976 fps
or
NTSC progressive with 29.97 fps your chance to reconvert it to NTSC are realistic using restore24
(do a forums search for restore24 revisited)
for common video cameras), there is no way to convert it back to NTSC
but if the source was 59.94 fields/sec interlaced footage (typical without introducing heavy losses."

so seems like he was saying if the true source of this pal dvd was 23.976 or 29.97 fps restore24 might help, but if it was 59.94 fps i'm screwed

i have no clue how to figure that out, so i did a sample clip w/restore24 and had really no clue what i was doing except reading the guides it came w/. here's my script:
import("restore24.avs")
loadplugin("masktools.dll")
loadplugin("tdeint.dll")
loadplugin("leakkerneldeint.dll")
LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
loadplugin("avisynth_c.dll")
loadcplugin("smartdecimate.dll")
loadCplugin("ibob.dll")

Mpeg2Source("3.d2v",cpu=4,iPP=true)
AssumeBFF()
a2=r24kernelbob(0)
b2=TDeint(mode=1,type=2,tryweave=true,full=false)
restore24(a2, b2)
LanczosResize(720,480)
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

i'm probably doing it all wrong. the end result was wierd a little jerky but not too much. and i think i saw a little white or grey ghosting every once in awhile. would anybody that understands restore24 help see if its not for my video. it took about 8 min. just for a 1 minute clip. i'd hate to do the entire video for no reason. btw, i have read what i could (and understand) about restore24.

[scharfis_brain]

this script should give nicer quality:

import("restore24.avs")
loadplugin("masktools.dll")
loadplugin("tdeint.dll")
loadplugin("leakkerneldeint.dll")
LoadPlugin("DGDecode.dll")
loadplugin("avisynth_c.dll")
loadcplugin("smartdecimate.dll")
loadCplugin("ibob.dll")

Mpeg2Source("3.d2v",cpu=4)
a2=r24kernelbob(0)
b2=TDeint(mode=1,type=2,tryweave=false,full=true)
restore24(a2, b2)
LanczosResize(width,480,0,2,width,572)

[jhr1948]

thanks for the reply sharfis

just out of curiousity were you able to take a look at my clip on neuron2's ftp site? is that how you came up with the script you're suggesting?

like i said before i don't know what they made this pal dvd from(or more exactly, what the original ntsc fps was)? this is the first time i've had to deal w/blended fields. i feel like such a noob(although i know i am). aghhh!!!

don't mean to bother w/all the quesions, but i'm curious about the
LanczosResize(width,480,0,2,width,572)
what does the width 572 do?

i'm used to LanczosResize(720,480)

finally, if i'm feeding this to cce should i not add: ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true)

sorry this is a whole new experience but i'd like to understand it better.

thanks for all the help so far, this forum is full of knowledge and knowledgable people.

[scharfis_brain]

yes i took a look on your sample.
r24 works very nice with your video.


if CCE doesn't like YV12 video,
use converttoyuy2()

at the end of that script.
but Do NOT use interlaced=true, because the video is progressive 23.976fps after r24.

width is an avisynth internal value, that return the actual width of the last video in pixels.

knowing that, this line:
LanczosResize(width,480,0,2,width,572)

resizes the video to 480 lines with a width of the input video (here 720 pixels).
also the 2 and the 572 are cropping away two lines on top & bottom BEFORE resizing

[jhr1948]

awesome!!!!
hopefully the last questions i promoise(sorry to be a bother) as i said i've only done scripts from examples and have not totally understood everything.

you said:
if CCE doesn't like YV12 video,
use converttoyuy2()
in other words first try the script the way you wrote it, w/out any convert, correct? unless cce craps out on me.

finally, do i need to run dgpulldown on the encoded video to make the 23.976 fps to 29.97fps?

thanks for the help scharfis_brain, i really couldn't have done it w/out your help.

[scharfis_brain]

you should NOT feed that script directly to CCE.

better create an intermediate AVI File with HuffYUV compression using VDub.
(Then you should leave out converttoyuy2() ! )

finally, do i need to run dgpulldown on the encoded video to make the 23.976 fps to 29.97fps?

I don't know, because I don't use CCE.

I know that TMPGenc sets the Pulldown flags itself.
So I never bothered with that.

But in general DGPulldown should do that job!
But ensure, that you encode progressive and NOT interlaced!

[Boulder]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain
you should NOT feed that script directly to CCE.

better create an intermediate AVI File with HuffYUV compression using VDub.
(Then you should leave out converttoyuy2() ! )

Only if you use the YV12-capable HuffYUV which is in the ffvfw package, possibly in latest ffdshow as well. The older HuffYUV supports only RGB and YUY2. The last VirtualDubMod should be used in fast recompress mode to ensure the program doesn't do another conversion.

[jhr1948]

omg, man i feel like an idiot. i hate to keep bothering you, but i must have entered a whole new game here. sorry you have to make everything out in babysteps.

so you're suggesting i open the script in vdub, set the video compression to HuffYUV and save as an avi. correct?

then i encode the avi w/my choice of encoders and make sure that it encodes as progressive.

thanks for all the help.

[Boulder]

I'd use VDubMod, although the v1.6-branch of VirtualDub might also work the same way in Fast recompress mode (make sure it is enabled instead of Full processing). If you use the regular HuffYUV codec instead of the YV12-capable one, leave the ConverttoYUY2() line at the end of your script. Then process the avi as needed.

[scharfis_brain]

Originally posted by Boulder
If you use the regular HuffYUV codec instead of the YV12-capable one, leave the ConverttoYUY2() line at the end of your script. Then process the avi as needed.

No, I would leave it out even in this case, because then, a systems filter is called, that does a nearest neighbor upsampling, which is good in this case because the subsampling done in CCE to YV12 . will not introduce chroma bleed!

[jhr1948]

boulder, thanks also for the input, i'll check those 2 packages you mentioned for the newer HuffYUV that is YV12-capable. btw, did i describe the steps correctly:

so you're suggesting i open the script in vdub, set the video compression to HuffYUV and save as an avi. correct?

then i encode the avi w/my choice of encoders and make sure that it encodes as progressive.

im sorry to bother so much, but i want to accomplish the best conversion and wasn't aware how complicated this can get. i first tried it using xesdeeni's conversion, but knew something wasn't right.


thanks again

[jhr1948]

thanks for all the help guys, i will be giving this a go tonight. i'm going to look for the new HuffYUV that is YV12-capable.

wish me luck, i'll report back w/the results

[zettai]

Just use lagarith instead of huffyuv. It can deal with YV12 and compresses better (and isn't all that slow)

[jhr1948]

hey there
so far so good

zettai, i took your advice in trying lagarith.

i wanted to see a short clip, b/c it looks like it's going to take 5 hours to make a 20 minute episode into an avi (that blows my mind), and so far the short clip looked great.

does cce handle lagarith alright? i'm set it to YV12.

anyways, i believe i'm going to get an awesome conversion here thanks all for your help. sharfis, you helped me so much i'm speechless. i think i've learned more in the passed few days.

thanks again

[jhr1948]

i can't believe how clean it looks. i encoded at avg 3300 bitrate in cce one pass vbr(just wanted to get a quick test) and even at such a low bitrate the quality surpasses my previous attempts hands down.

i haven't got to this part, but when i remux, will i have to adjust the audio considering i changed 25fps to 23.976fps?

also, afterwards i ran dgpulldown to change 23.976 to 29.97fps and noticed that in vdubmod it still shows 23.976 but in dvd2avi it does show 29.97 i'm assuming that's normal.

thanks for everything so far

[niamh]

I have this ugly PAL DVD that obviously is originally a NTSC, and has been transferred badly, so badly, that the source itself stutters (never mind the blends either). I've tried various things, the lot is a mess, I'm defeated. Is there any way at all to restore motion smoothness? Restore24 made it worse btw, motion wise... the thing never made it to the cinemas, so it's probably 29.97 in the first place; to be honest, I can't figure it out.
Thanks for any help :D

Here is a vob sample (http://c.1asphost.com/niaomalley/test.vob) (10 mb)
There are way worse panning scenes if you should so request :)

[Mug Funky]

if there's flipped fields anywhere in the source, then it's gone through a standards converter, there's probably no way to fix it. i'm still downloading right now though...

[edit] OW! my eyes! looks like this was bottom field but fed to the converter as top-field, so it messed up pretty bad. not sure what to do about this one (simply deinterlace? that'll kill the stutter i suppose.)

[niamh]

Actually, it's flagged bff, but at least at the start, it's tff..

I have deinterlaced it,with several deinterlacers and it didn't kill anything :( .It's not really bearable to be honest, as some panning scenes are way worse and visible than this one.

And thanks a lot for using your precious bandwidth to d/l my sample :)

[scharfis_brain]

hmmm. restore24 works pretty well with this VOB!


mpeg2source("test.d2v")
assumetff()

a=r24kernelbob()
b=tdeint(mode=1)
restore24(a,b)


No stutter at all!

[Boulder]

Hmm, I tried exactly the same script earlier, encoded directly to q4 XviD for testing and it was jerky:confused:

[scharfis_brain]

which versions of AVS are you both (Boulder & Niamh) using?

The last version that doesn't produce stutter with R24 is:
AviSynth 2.56, build:Dec 19 2004 [16:09:44]

[niamh]

Avisynth 2.56 build:jan 6 2005 [10:14:49]

Should I downgrade then? I never knew it would make a difference.. The test I've run is terribly jerky/stuttery/nasty (my script has tryweave=false, should I get rid of that?)
I can host another sample if it helps

[scharfis_brain]

try the older version of AVSIynth
but leave the tryweave=true unaltered.

[Boulder]

I've got the latest one by IanB, the link's in the CVS thread. I guess it's from around March.

[scharfis_brain]

so please downgrade to Dec-19-2004 and report back, please

[niamh]

Oh JOY :D ... it's smooth as a baby's butt now

:thanks:

So how come r24 is b0rked on later releases then? it's atrocious looking

[scharfis_brain]

it's probably a bug in kevin atkinsons smartdecimate, that becomes visible when AVISynth cache management became rewritten.

But he has been silent over a year. So I don't except any updates/bugfixes.

But I hope for a new alternative decimation plugin that will be able to replace smartdecimate.

[Didée]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain
[B]it's probably a bug in kevin atkinsons smartdecimate, that becomes visible when AVISynth cache management became rewritten.
Actually, I'm using the AviSynth build from Jan.6th, too, and R24 usually is working fine with it, for me. But then, I'm using much mor moderate SetMemoryMax settings than scharfis_brain suggests in the readme. Usually I set a max. of 160 MB or so, on 512MB machines.

But I hope for a new alternative decimation plugin that will be able to replace smartdecimate.
We ;) hope so.

Getting R24 to work correctly sometimes is really an art of its own, and that's a big shame. The script IS demanding, making extensive use of AviSynth's conditional environment -- but in last instance, the instabilities are really caused by SmartDecimate: when leaving out SmartDecimate completely, letting R24 deliver a not decimated source, the script works solid as a rock ... hardly a chance to make it stumble.

[niamh]

I have to yelp for help again. :)
I have 2 new candidates for restore24 (sigh)
one works, the other gives me a script error, and I'm damned if I can fix it myself:

log2(num_frames*numr*4)>31
(squiggleswv, line 290)
(squiggleswv, line 298)
(\..\..., line 12)

here are the offending lines:
restore24(a2, b2) #12

SmartDecimate(r24numr, r24deno, bob=AlreadyBobbed, weave=AlreadyBobbed, tel=0.3, t_max=0.0000050, console=false) #290

debug ? ShowAll() : DoIt()
#298

:D

[Boulder]

IIRC there is a problem with too long clips and SmartDecimate. The Restore24 revisited -thread might contain the details. Your problem might be related to that.

[niamh]

I thought as much, the movie is 2h20 minutes :/
thanks :)