SPRM 7 holds the PTTN or the PGN?

[r0lZ]

I have used SPRM 7 in a test to highlight the current chapter button in a chapter menu. The chapter numbers of the title are not the same as the program numbers.
When played with WinDVD, the right number is stored in SPRM 7: it's the last visited chapter. But in IfoEdit and my standalone Sony, the SPRM 7 holds the last visited program!

Hence the question: what exactly is SPRM 7 supposed to hold? The PTTN or the PGN? According to his name, it should be the PTTN. But I usually thrust my Sony. :confused:

Any idea? mpucoder?

[mpucoder]

According to all the manuals, SPRM 7 holds PTTN - but is only valid if the title is a one-sequential title (single PGC, no repeat, random, or shuffle play)

[r0lZ]

Thanks, mpucoder.
I'm still confused. This is exactly the situation: one simple sequential title.
So, why does my Sony and IfioEdit use the program number?

Note: the original is Lords of the Rings - The Return of the King, long version, Zone 2, french, DVD 2. It has the chapters and programs 'aligned'.
After a DVD split, I end up with a lot of chapters pointing to program 1, and the remaining ones on the remaining programs.
In the chapter menu, GPRM 10 is assigned the value of SPRM 7, and then tested to compute the right program to jump to, and the button number to highlight. Works fine with WinDVD, but doesn't work anymore with IfoEdit and my Sony!

Is it illegal to have more than one chapter pointing to the same program? Could this be the problem?

[mpucoder]

Originally posted by r0lZ
Is it illegal to have more than one chapter pointing to the same program? Could this be the problem?
Not illegal, but not recommended. The player's display, and probably SPRM 7, work VTS_PTT_SRPT backwards to determine the chapter number from the pgc/program.
But this still doesn't sound like what is happening, as the first program, which has multiple chapters pointing to it, would be the only one affected. It should show as chapter 1, while program 2 should show up as whatever the first chapter to point to it is.

Now, it is possible that the player sees the identical values and treats them as non-entries. The only way to sort this out is to skip a program somewhere, that way you'll know if SPRM 7 is the program number, or the chapter number with redundant entries removed.

[r0lZ]

Yes. I though at this method. I must find some time to test it. I'll post the results here.
Anyway, Thanks.

[r0lZ]

Test done.
On my Sony and my KISS, and with IfoEdit, the program number is used instead of the PTT.
Note that Sony (and KISS) displays the program number instead of the chapter number in the LCD display. IfoEdit displays the chapter number.

I wonder if I must change the way my Trace function handle the SPRM 7. For now, it is loaded with the chapter number.
Any though?

[mpucoder]

Well, this has produced another dilema (for me). Several books state that a chapter is made up of one or more programs. But the Philips Video Verifier user manual (haven't actually tested this, and the manual is sometimes out of sync with the program) lists error 5626 as
"The current cell belongs to PGn of PGCn, but this PG is not referred to by a PTT.
All programs should be referred to by a PTT"
Even if this is true, it doesn't mean there is a 1:1 correspondence between PTT number and PG number - what if the order is not the same. And how do these players handle multiple PGC titles?

Note that this would not be the first time Philips misinterpretted the spec. My 2 favorites:
1) The error I get all the time about not having a multiple of frames in a vobu - NTSC is field based, and in another part of the manual it quotes the spec in regard to vobu length being a multiple of fields. So the manual, and program, contradicts itself.
2) It is impossible to make a PAL DVD that has no VMG video (no VIDEO_TS.VOB) without getting an error. If you leave the video attributes zero the verifier says:

>>> [DVD] ERROR 5603 (ref. DVD-3 4.1.5-3) :
Cross Check for 'VTSM_V_ATR->TV_system' failed
for comparison between VTSI_MAT(value 0x0000) and VMGI->VTS_ATRT(value 0x0001)
for VTSI at byte 256 bit 2
>>> DVD ERROR 5603 will no longer be reported !


>>> [DVD] ERROR 5607 (ref. DVD-3 Annex N, Table N-2) :
VTSI: The VTS_ATRT VTS_V_ATR specifies a TV system 1 (PAL) different
from the TV system 0 (NTSC) specified by the VMGI_MAT VMGM_V_ATR.
for VTSI at byte 512 bit 2
>>> DVD ERROR 5607 will no longer be reported !


>>> [DVD] ERROR 5777 (ref. DVD-3 4.3.2-1 (2)) :
PGC_GI.PGC_PB_TM: The tc_flag (1 '25 frames/s') does not correspond with the TV_system (0 'NTSC'),
this flag must be 3 ('30 frames/s non-drop frame')
for PGCI at byte 4119 bit 0
VTSI at byte 4119 bit 0
>>> DVD ERROR 5777 will no longer be reported !

If you set the PAL bit the verifier says:

>>> [DVD] ERROR 4041 (ref. DVD-3 4.1.1) :
VMGM_V_ATR: Some fields are non-zero when no VOBS
exist (BP 256)
for VMGI at byte 256 bit 0

I chose to set the bit, 1 error vs 3.

[mpucoder]

You can add another source (besides DVD Demystified and DVD Authoring and Production) to the list of sources that state that SPRM 7 holds the PTT number. I just looked at the Scenarist Procedures manual. It states "SPRM 7 - Part of Title Number - Specifies the number of the currently playing Part of Title for a One_Sequential_PGC_Title."

[r0lZ]

Well, I will leave the SPRM 7 gestion as it is, at least for now.

However, I'm a little bit confused by the behavior of my Sony. Usually, it is verry standard compliant.

It should be interesting to know how other players react, as, IMHO, the real standard is determined by the hardware! But I don't want to buy a lot of players, just to be sure! :(

Thanks for your help!

[mpucoder]

Maybe a simple test DVD that readers could download and play?

[r0lZ]

Good idea. I must do it...

[r0lZ]

Here it is:
TEST_SPRM_7_PAL.zip (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/r0lz/TEST_SPRM_7_PAL.zip) (102 KB)
TEST_SPRM_7_NTSC.zip (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/r0lz/TEST_SPRM_7_NTSC.zip) (94 KB)

@everybody:
Please help!
Download this little test DVD, and try it with your players.
Please report the result of the test in this thread.
Thank you!

[EDIT: Changed the test to show also if the Cell number is stored in the SPRM 7.
Also, there is now a NTSC version (for mpucoder ;))]

[blutach]

SONY NS300 - Program Number
NAD T562 - Program Number

Regards

[r0lZ]

That's a fast response! Thanks, blutach!

[blutach]

YW.

migsy from Digi Digest reports in this thread (http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49251):

Samsung E-235D - Player has not stored the PTT nor the PG number in SPRM7

Sony PS2 (DVD player version 2.13E) - Player has stored the PG Number in SPRM 7. It is not standard compliant

Microsoft Xbox - Player has stored the PTT number in SPR7
It is standard compliant.



You might like to check that thread occasionally!

Regards

[gizmau]

cyberhome 405: ptt in sprm7 (standard)
cyberhome dvr-750: ptt in sprm7 (standard)

[blutach]

Hadn't thought to check my son's PS2

SONY PS 2 DVD Player 3.00A - Program Number

Regards

[mpucoder]

Couldn't test either Sony RDR-GX300 (a DVR) or Sony DVP-NS400D - they don't play PAL:mad:
But Nero Showtime (ver 1.5.0.6) showed PG
PowerDVD (ver 5.0) got the unknown error

[r0lZ]

New test-DVDs availables: Now, there is a NTSC and a PAL version, and the test is more precise: it tests if it is the PTT, PG or Cell number that is stored in SPRM 7.

TEST_SPRM_7_PAL.zip (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/r0lz/TEST_SPRM_7_PAL.zip) (102 KB)
TEST_SPRM_7_NTSC.zip (http://www.videohelp.com/~r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/r0lz/TEST_SPRM_7_NTSC.zip) (94 KB)

Someone could try it with PowerDVD 6?

Thanks to everybody!

[blutach]

Result with PowerDVD v6 - "Unknown error!"

Nero Showtime v2 - PTT (standard compliant) - not unusual, IMHO, Showtime is reputed to be a good, compliant, software player.

Regards

[r0lZ]

Thanks!
However, mpucoder reported PGN for Showtime 1.5. Maybe a fixed bug...

[sweetness]

Sony DVP-NS725P =Player has stored the PG Number in SPRM 7. It is not standard compliant.
Mark's Tray DVD Player Pro 2.41= same thing not compliant.

[kuvaweopu]

Pioneer DV-470:
Your player has stored the PTT number in SPRM 7. It is standard compliant.

Pioneer DV-717:
Your player has stored the PG (Program) number in SPRM 7. It is not standard compliant!

[r0lZ]

Thanks, and welcome to the forum, kuvaweopu!

[mpucoder]

r0lZ, thanks for making an NTSC version. Both Sony's (RDR-GX300 and DVP-NS400D) store PG in SPRM 7

[goonix]

Softwareplayer:
PowerDVD 6 - Unknown Error
WinDVD 6 - PTT
NeroShowtime 2.0.0.22 - PTT
Ulead DVD Player 1.1 - PG
DVmatics neoPlayer - Unknown Error
Sonic Cineplayer 1.51 - PG
DVD X Player Pro 1.6 - PG
VideoLan 0.7.2 - PG

Hardwareplayer:
Mustek V520 - PTT
Tevion DVD4000 - PTT

[jsoto]

Hi all,

WINDVD 4.0: Unknown Error
WINDVD 4.5: Unknown Error
POWERDVD 5.0: Unknown Error
POWERDVD 6.0: Unknown Error
mediaplayer clasic 6.4.8.3: PG. not compliant

THOMPSON-DTH5200: PTT, compliant
Airis 103C: PTT, compliant

jsoto

[blutach]

goonix and jsoto sure like software players ;)

Regards

[jsoto]

Not really, only for testing.
BTW, I knew WinDVD was "better" than PowerDVD in some other stuff (audio lpcm 20 bits, some additional bugs we found..). But, according goonix, seems WinDVD 6 is still better.

jsoto

[blutach]

OT here - but I have found PowerDVD 6 has trouble turning subtitles on and off and is almost useless for testing in this area. This was not the case in PowerDVD v5 :(

Regards

[zacoz]

MediaPlayer Clasic 6.4.8.3 - Program
WinDVD 5.0 DXVA - Unknown Error
Windows Media Player 10.00.00.3646 - Program
Nero Showtime 2.0.0.22 - Chapter
TEAC DV2000 standalone (old) - Unknown Error

[Jeffster]

Hi,

Panasonic DVD-S35:
Your player has stored the PG (Program) number in SPRM 7. It is not standard compliant!

Panasonic DMR-E55:
Your player has stored the PG (Program) number in SPRM 7. It is not standard compliant!

Philips DVP640K:
Your player has stored the PTT (chapter) number in SPRM 7. It is standard compliant.

:)

[r0lZ]

Packard Bell DIVX 100: PTT
Apple DVD Player 4 (on a mini Mac): PTT

[r0lZ]

OK. Thanks to everybody.
I'm not sure it is useful to continue to test other players.

So far, 12 settop players are stardard compliant (PTT), and 12 are not (PG). Exact parity! ;)
There are 2 unknown errors (?). None of then uses the Cell number.

The situation is worse with the software players. I'm pretty sure that some software players do use the DirectX navigator of another player, because the same software player, with the same version number, can give different results on different machines. So, this test is subject to caution.
Apparently, only WinDVD 6, NeroShowtime 2 and Apple DVD Player 4 (on Mac) are standard compliant (PTT).
9 software players: PG
6 software players: unknown error!

This means that we cannot thrust the SPRM 7, or we have to be sure that all PTTs are aligned with the program numbers. And even in this case, the 'unknown error' may confuse the navigation!

Anyway, I have added a checkbox in the trace's virtual player setup dialog of PgcEdit to force the SPRM 7 to hold the program number instead of the chapter number. This way, you will be able to see the behavior of the DVD in both case.
I will not add another option to simulate the unknown error, because I don't know what is stored in SPRM 7 in this case, and because I don't want to support all bugs and problems of the players, especially of the software players on PC!

[iliketowatch]

Panasonic DVD-F65:
Player has stored the PG Number in SPRM 7. It is not standard compliant

Cyberhome CH-DVD300:
Player has stored the PTT number in SPR7 It is standard compliant.

LiteOn LVW-5006 (recorder):
Player has stored the PTT number in SPR7 It is standard compliant.

[sweetness]

i guess the users options is the best way. just too may players are diferent. i wounder what other command are like that too.

how many of us are around here? maybe we can all put in a dollar and buy the official specs for $5000. :p

[mpucoder]

Originally posted by sweetness
how many of us are around here? maybe we can all put in a dollar and buy the official specs for $5000. :p
I know you were joking, but the sad truth is if we (or any Linux or open source group) had a million dollars the DVD Forum would not allow us to have the specs. It's not an open market item you can buy if you have the money. It's all about control.

[frank]

Philips HDD & DVD Player/Recorder DVDR520H
Player has stored the PTT number in SPR7. It is standard compliant.

SEG Hollywood II (Omega chipset)
Player has stored the PTT number in SPR7. It is standard compliant.

Nero ShowTime 2.0.22 software player
Player has stored the PTT number in SPR7. It is standard compliant.

As you can see Panasonic (member of -R mafia) is the leader of not compliant players.

[blutach]

Originally posted by mpucoder
I know you were joking, but the sad truth is if we (or any Linux or open source group) had a million dollars the DVD Forum would not allow us to have the specs. It's not an open market item you can buy if you have the money. It's all about control. As well, there is a little thing called the NDA :p

Regards

[sweetness]

Originally posted by mpucoder
It's not an open market item you can buy if you have the money. It's all about control.
maybe that's why the inconsitancy of the spec. if they (the DVD Forum) can do what ever they want do you think it is possible they can change the specs from year to year?
i remember 2cool had a issue with spec too.
i can also be out in left field. just trying to think of why the inconsitancy that's all.

[r0lZ]

Originally posted by sweetness
maybe that's why the inconsitancy of the spec. if they (the DVD Forum) can do what ever they want do you think it is possible they can change the specs from year to year? I don't think so. The specs must stay compatibles with the old players.

I suppose that the compatibility problems of the players are due to the incredible complexity of the specs, and probably also to the specs book itself. I've heard it is verry badly written and organized, and there is no index!

[mpucoder]

The specs haven't changed significantly since 1998. And since each DVD is marked with the spec version number (either 1.0 or 1.1) they should be able to resolve any differences.

On a related sidenote - some people have asked me where to get the latest mpeg-2 specs, or told me the spec I use is old and out-of-date. But the fact is the DVD spec froze the mpeg spec used in DVDs to the November 1994 version.

[jesus2099]

Hello!
I have tested my Pioneer dv-444
And it is not compliant to DVD standard: Program number is stored in the SPRM7 register.

[jesus2099]

The test DVD tells me that SPRM7 unlikely holds the program number instead of the chapter number.

BUT

I made a DVD with some chapter menus and some movies. When I hit the menu button and the last menu was the chapter menu then I get back to the chapter menu. Here I used SPRM7 to select the right thumbnail corresponding to the chapter I was on and I end up with the correct chapter number. Because the correct button is highlighted.

So it seems that my Pioneer DV-444 has the correct chapter number inside SPRM7 but the TEST DVD tells me otherwise..

How is this test DVD done? What's the program number anyway? Can it be equal to chapter number in some cases?

Thanks Tristan!

[r0lZ]

Yes, the program number is almost always equal to the chapter number, at least on commercial DVDs.

On my test DVD, there are more programs than chapters. So, when the test clip ends, the chapter number is not equal to the program number. Then the content of SPRM 7 is tested, and the right message is displayed.

You can see if the chapter and program numbers are equal in PgcEdit.

[jesus2099]

Ah OK! Thank you Rolz very much!
In fact I didn't know what Program was. I still don't know what it is but now I know it exists and is similar to Chapter in some way..
Is there a nice place where Programs are explained?

[r0lZ]

I've read somewhere that the program were originally designed to be used as "sub-chapters". It's to allow, say, an episodic DVD to put each episode in a chapter, while keeping the possibility to navigate from program to program in the episode.
Also good to know: the Prev and Next "chapter" buttons of the remote are usually going to the previous or next program, not chapter! But the led display of the player changes only when a new chapter is accessed. On some of the first standalone players, there were also specific buttons to jump from (real) chapter to chapter, skipping the intermediate programs. This old idea is now somewhat abandoned by the industry, perhaps because of the SPRM 7 confusion.

Technically, the programs numbers are defined in a sub-table within the PGC, while chapters are defined in a totally different table. A chapter must point to a program, and a program must point to a cell.
It is even possible to have several chapters pointing to the same program. It's used, for example, when a DVD-9 is split in two parts with IfoEdit. On the second disc the first chapters are all pointing to program 1, to keep the other chapter numbers unchanged. As you know now, it's dangerous, because if SPRM 7 is used to determine which chapter was played to highlight the right chapter menu button, and the player stores the program number in SPRM 7, the result will be wrong.

[jesus2099]

Rolz, I think you are really great.
I understand the usefulness of the program now!

For your information: My DV-444, on his chapter LED display, displays the program number. Because, with your test DVD, I can see that it goes through "1", "2", and then "3" and there are only 2 chapters, right? (^_^)

Thank you very very much!

[Rippraff]

Cyberhome CH-DVD 505:
Your player has stored the PTT number in SPRM 7. It is standard compliant.

Cu Rippraff

[mill]

pioneer Dvd Player DV-563A Your player has stored the PTT(chapter) number in SPRM 7. It is standard compliant