excellent quality anime filtering [Archive]

Spyn

11th March 2005, 17:52

Hi,

I think (but not sure :D ) i got an excellent quality DVD anime, this is Wonderful days and i don't know if i must filter it or not.

here is a screenshot without any filtering, script :

undot()
LanczosResize(704,384)

http://naxxalite.free.fr/ripdvd/no_filter.png

screenshot with filtering, script :

Undot()
MSmooth(threshold=5,strength=1)
MSharpen(strength=60,threshold=25)
LanczosResize(704,384)

http://naxxalite.free.fr/ripdvd/msmooth_msharpen.png

what's your opinion ?

DigitalDeviant

11th March 2005, 18:02

It may depend on what your target filesize is, but I did a 2 CD encode of Wonderful Days in a lot higer resolution than that (with the original AC3 and a downmixed vorbis audio track) with no filtering and it turned out to be one of the best looking encodes I've done ever. As far as I've experianced, this is one of the cleanest DVDs I've ever seen, filtering won't improve the quality any.

If your aiming for a 1 CD encode you might be able to hit it at that resolution if you use a decent low bit-rate matrix in XviD or use AVC.

Spyn

11th March 2005, 18:09

Wonderful days is extremely compressive (compressible ?), 99 % at 672*368 without any filtering.

i go for one cd encode at 1058 kbits bitrate (Xvid) with mp3 vbr 128 kbits audio track

i thnik i can encode at 704*384 but i think quality won't be better cause of resizing down during playback.

Ark

11th March 2005, 20:21

Erm.. the two images are actually the same file (no_filter.png)...

And if it's so compressible, what about some enhancement like mfToon(), Ssxsharpen(), Limitedsharpen(), FastLinedarken()?

Spyn

11th March 2005, 20:34

Originally posted by Ark
Erm.. the two images are actually the same file (no_filter.png)...

And if it's so compressible, what about some enhancement like mfToon(), Ssxsharpen(), Limitedsharpen(), FastLinedarken()?

ouuuuups i'll edit the post, sorry ;)

i tried limitedsharpen() but it sharp too much, i don't know other filters, what advantages to use Ssxsharpen ?

FastLineDarken, i think this filter dark the lines of anime content ?

and what mfToon is for ?

ChronoCross

11th March 2005, 20:46

mftoon is a line thinning/darkening script. Super slow though but accurate. and there is absolutely no reason you would need to filter that DVD at all. I wish I had sources as great to work with. However I don't seem to buy any newer series only older ones like DB/Z/GT, YYH, Tenchi, etc that all have a rediculous amount of work needed in them.

DigitalDeviant

11th March 2005, 22:58

@Ark He's right, it compresses like mad. If you use the proper matrix and bitrate with XviD, sharpening will only make it look unatural and introduce articats. Trust me I tried that myself and a lot of the scenes with heavy rain or fog looked like crap. Besides the fact that it's not needed, the movie has a lot of CGI and miniature animation. In many places it's a lot like Star Wars Episode I. I don't think you want to use a line darkening script.

@ChronoCross I feel your pain with DB((Z)(GT)) but with YYH and Tenchi, I din't need that much filtering (as opposed to let's say, the Oh! My Goddess OVA's.) The standard Deen/sharpening seemed to do fine from what I remember. Not to be rude but are you using a legit R1/R2 dvd?

ChronoCross

12th March 2005, 01:28

Originally posted by DigitalDeviant
@Ark He's right, it compresses like mad. If you use the proper matrix and bitrate with XviD, sharpening will only make it look unatural and introduce articats. Trust me I tried that myself and a lot of the scenes with heavy rain or fog looked like crap. Besides the fact that it's not needed, the movie has a lot of CGI and miniature animation. In many places it's a lot like Star Wars Episode I. I don't think you want to use a line darkening script.

@ChronoCross I feel your pain with DB((Z)(GT)) but with YYH and Tenchi, I din't need that much filtering (as opposed to let's say, the Oh! My Goddess OVA's.) The standard Deen/sharpening seemed to do fine from what I remember. Not to be rude but are you using a legit R1/R2 dvd?

yeah definitely legit. in YYH it's mainly grain noise that I've learned to deal with. but with tenchi it's more of an issue of rainbows and line dots(best way I can explain it) with the added grain noise. deen does work good however not as good as I would like.

Spyn

12th March 2005, 02:37

Originally posted by DigitalDeviant
@Ark He's right, it compresses like mad. If you use the proper matrix and bitrate with XviD, sharpening will only make it look unatural and introduce articats. Trust me I tried that myself and a lot of the scenes with heavy rain or fog looked like crap. Besides the fact that it's not needed, the movie has a lot of CGI and miniature animation. In many places it's a lot like Star Wars Episode I. I don't think you want to use a line darkening script.

msharpen use a threshold to determines what is detected as edge detail and thus sharpened, i used a very low threshold and strength so as you can see on screenshot, only few details are sharpened a bit.

i will made an encoding test with and without filtering and you will please tell me which is you're prefer ;)

dragongodz

12th March 2005, 05:29

msharpen use a threshold to determines what is detected as edge detail and thus sharpened, i used a very low threshold and strength so as you can see on screenshot, only few details are sharpened a bit.
its nice to see someone else who uses msmooth and msharpen on lower settings(i find the defaults are usually a little heavy). since msmooth and msharpen were designed for animated footage they generally do a good job for such content, pity more people didnt realise it. ;)

as for the comparison the second one does look slightly sharper and can not see any real detriment to it.

ChronoCross

12th March 2005, 07:29

it's not even that people don't realize it. it's just that both of those filters are insanely slow on weaker machines. which is one of the reasons I don't use it.

Spyn

12th March 2005, 19:54

Originally posted by ChronoCross
it's not even that people don't realize it. it's just that both of those filters are insanely slow on weaker machines. which is one of the reasons I don't use it.

indeed, first pass : 5h32 :/ 7fps with filters, 27 fps without :eek:

i had stopped the second pass cause i can't let my pc running during the night.

could i make the second pass by using same settings that firstpass if i had the .stats files ? i think yes but i want to be sure of that before starting a 8 hours second pass encoding...

ChronoCross

12th March 2005, 22:51

Originally posted by Spyn
indeed, first pass : 5h32 :/ 7fps with filters, 27 fps without :eek:

i had stopped the second pass cause i can't let my pc running during the night.

could i make the second pass by using same settings that firstpass if i had the .stats files ? i think yes but i want to be sure of that before starting a 8 hours second pass encoding...

yes you can. if you already completed the first pass on the encode then you can start the 2nd pass whenever you like.

Leak

12th March 2005, 22:57

Originally posted by Spyn
i had stopped the second pass cause i can't let my pc running during the night.

Hint: Windows has those nice "Standby"/"Hibernate" power saving modes - don't let them (and your encode) go to waste unneccessary... ;)

np: Mondfabrik - Lluvia ([THN070-1] Crossways)

Spyn

13th March 2005, 00:55

Originally posted by Leak
Hint: Windows has those nice "Standby"/"Hibernate" power saving modes - don't let them (and your encode) go to waste unneccessary... ;)

np: Mondfabrik - Lluvia ([THN070-1] Crossways)

no problem, they are all desactivated, only the screen got a stanbdby mode ;)

dragongodz

13th March 2005, 01:55

both of those filters are insanely slow on weaker machines. which is one of the reasons I don't use it.
yes for msmooth Neuron2 says on its page it is in no way optimised for speed. since its closed source nothing can be done about that. msharpen however is open source, may have to look at that eventually(its just trying to find the time).

ChronoCross

13th March 2005, 02:06

hmm maybe we could get neuron to work on a new version? because I do know it is a very good filter.

dragongodz

13th March 2005, 03:06

hmm maybe we could get neuron to work on a new version? because I do know it is a very good filter.
well you can ask him if you like. he seems pretty busy with DGdecode etc though so i wouldnt hold your breath. :)

Leak

13th March 2005, 12:12

Originally posted by Spyn
no problem, they are all desactivated, only the screen got a stanbdby mode ;)

Errr... I meant that you should *activate* them so you can just send your PC into standby/hibernate mode instead of turning it off if you need a quiet room. You can then just bring the PC out of it and it'll continue encoding from where it left off...

Of course, this means setting the standby/hibernate times to "never" in the "Power Options" control panel so it won't interrupt your encoding prematurely... ;)

np: Boris Heizmann - Azure ([THN070-3] Crossways)

Scarfac3

13th March 2005, 16:11

use deen on low settings...and LSresize+Lanczos4Resize combo
and make sure it's on "a3d" cause all sources has temporal noise...even if you can't see it
and use ogg instead of a vbr mp3...mp3 is huge...you can add more bitrate for your audio\video if you do it with an ogg cause it might save you around 10mb per a movie and then you can boost the bitrate for the video a bit

Mug Funky

13th March 2005, 16:42

all sources has temporal noise

sorry to sound like an annoying red-haired politician, but "please explain"...

a CG source will have no temporal noise whatsoever. the only temporal variation to be had is maybe from noise in the DVD encode, and only if either the encoder used is really crap, or if the bitrate was way too low and there were lots of crossing objects in the animation. i don't even see encoding noise anymore cause i work with digibeta masters :):)

btw, pretty much all anime produced these days will be CG, whether 2d or 3d or both.

dragongodz

13th March 2005, 17:04

pretty much all anime produced these days will be CG, whether 2d or 3d or both.
majority yes. however computer painted(2d) and computer rendered(3d) are 2 completely different things and do not look the same of course. :)

Scarfac3

14th March 2005, 14:34

O_O
you work with digibetas?
that must be really fun :)

DigitalDeviant

14th March 2005, 19:21

The source in question isn't entirly CG. The characters were done with cels (yes, they do still use them on occasion) and a good amount of the film was done in miniature. There are a few live cuts in there as well.

Mug Funky

16th March 2005, 05:14

...however computer painted(2d) and computer rendered(3d) are 2 completely different things and do not look the same of course.

well, yes, but they do have a lack of grain in common...

@ Scarfac3:

yes, it is :)

too bad the monitors are really small so i can't enjoy the tiny tiny bit of extra detail they provide...

GitS SAC looks bloody stunning though - scaled down from HDTV and natively PAL...

dragongodz

16th March 2005, 05:49

well, yes, but they do have a lack of grain in common...
yes but they also react different to filtering because of the difference in texturing(if you know what i mean), thats all i was trying to say. :)

actually come to think of it they can have grain aswell. not the original but when encoded(such as for dvd), grain introduced by the encoder or other preprocessing.