An objective 1-Click-DVD-backup-solutions comparison

[Bret34]

You should never make a decision based upon percentages... they are meaningless.

Which would you rather have on the same movie, a 70% reduction on an original that was at done at 5Mbs or an 90% reduction on one that was encoded at 3Mbs?

Of course I guess I'm an easy target for accusations of bias... but if an encoder technique always guarantees the best results possible, and a transcode only works sometimes (and you really don't know until it has already been done once) -- why not just always use the encoder?

I would *definitely* use an encoding system such as DVD-RB & CCE virtually every time for below-85% situations, but like another poster said, the online guides (and I've read every one available) go into so much arcane jargon, it's almost impossible to know if one is using the correct settings for a particular DVD (yes, they vary) -- especially with CCE. And don't even *think* of posting a "what are the optimal settings for CCE/DVD-RB...etc." on the appropriate fora as you'll be greeted with polite flames and condescension.

As it were, I often used the abovementioned combo with high compression situations and important DVDs (e.g. "The Leopard") and have no complaints with the quality -- but not having done any serious comparisons with the better transcoders (IC, et al), I'm just guessing --- which minimizes my use of encoders, as well as becoming a DVD-RB subscriber :-)

BTW, I use DVD Rebuilder 0.93 and CCE 2.50 or 2.70 for about 5% of my DVD backups.

[jdobbs]

I use DVD-RB and CCE on 100% of my backups -- and not because I wrote it either. I do it because it is better.

I've tried Shrink, DVD95Copy, DVD2One, and Pinnacle IC (versions 7 and 8), and I paid for them (except Shrink of course). But I just wasn't satisfied with the quality (no matter what percentage I reduced a source) -- so I found myself always doing manual backups manually with CCE anyway.

I wrote DVD Rebuilder so that I could get the best result on every backup without spending two days to do every disc. Sooner or later everyone who does backups is going to know why. The people with small screens or units that distort the video (blurring it usually) at some point will upgrade their equipment, and then they are going to look at their transcoded garbage, think about all the time they wasted, and say "what was I thinking... now I need to redo all of these"

Oh well. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[blutach]

I guess the real discussion should be, which encoder to use.

HC free, excellent quality, can't beat the price :)
CCE quick,
Procoder 2, does it all but oh so pricey.

Take yer pick - there's something for everyone. But, in a year, maybe less, it appears that DL media prices will be within the reach of most and we will see the end of this debate.

In any event, I guess this (half a) rant doesn't belong in "one-clicks". Please don't strike me jdobbs/wmansir/mrbass :)

Regards

[elizerrojas]

i'm not buying a DL burnner so RB/HC forever.

[TheSeeker]

I guess the real discussion should be, which encoder to use.

HC free, excellent quality, can't beat the price :)
CCE quick,
Procoder 2, does it all but oh so pricey.

Take yer pick - there's something for everyone. But, in a year, maybe less, it appears that DL media prices will be within the reach of most and we will see the end of this debate.

In any event, I guess this (half a) rant doesn't belong in "one-clicks". Please don't strike me jdobbs/wmansir/mrbass :)

Regards

IMO CCE and Procoder are about the only encoders you need. CCE I almost use for everything. Its fast, its outputs a sharp image. This sharpness can work against it however if you are doing a low bitrate source. To counter this you can either increase qual prec or you can use Procoder. Procoder is also great for interlaced tv sources. But obviously it takes forever compared to cce.

HC looks like a fantastic encoder, and I have used it a few times and have had pretty good sucess. I havent been absolutely impressed with its size prediction. Got a lot of oversizing with Anime until the right quanti mats were found for the situation. The reason I haven't really been using HC over CCE is because the image quality it provides (which may or may not be better than CCE) is NOT enough to make me overlook the fact that it takes 3 to 4 times longer to encode on my Athlon64 machine than cce does.

To conclude:

1. CCE for med to high bitrate situations, works great for anime too when you jack up the qual prec and use some anime quanti mats.

2. Procoder (MAYBE HC) for low bitrate situations and tv series'.

I always use bach1 quanti mat for the below 2,000 segments, QLB quanti mat for mid bitrates (3000 and under) and the encoder default for above that. For anime I use the YACQM for low bitrate anime and my very own tweaked version of YACQM for higher bitrate anime.

With CCE 1+1 pass on my computer taking only 2 hours. I really see no reason to EVER use a transcoder. Whats the point?

[Bret34]

I use DVD-RB and CCE on 100% of my backups -- and not because I wrote it either. I do it because it is better.

I've tried Shrink, DVD95Copy, DVD2One, and Pinnacle IC (versions 7 and 8), and I paid for them (except Shrink of course). But I just wasn't satisfied with the quality (no matter what percentage I reduced a source) -- so I found myself always doing manual backups manually with CCE anyway.

I wrote DVD Rebuilder so that I could get the best result on every backup without spending two days to do every disc. Sooner or later everyone who does backups is going to know why. The people with small screens or units that distort the video (blurring it usually) at some point will upgrade their equipment, and then they are going to look at their transcoded garbage, think about all the time they wasted, and say "what was I thinking... now I need to redo all of these"

Oh well. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

With all due respects, jdobbs, your post in response to mine didn't even touch the main issue I raised, viz: using the DVD-RB/CCE combo *optimally* requires tech-tweak dedication and knowledge -- which is fine for hard-core hobbyists and pros, but for those of us who simply wish to back up DVDs with the best quality without making it our lives' work. Many people (especially s/w authors) post tons and tons of gobble about how they tweak their proggies *IN SPITE* of the movie :D

Now, if you or anyone else can write a lucid, easy-to-follow manual on using the above for "the rest of us" I'll go to 100%. But if and until then, the material I've backed up with transcoders looks virtually (to me, that is) indistinguishable from my just-guessing DVD-RB/CCE backups -- as seen on my Pioneer 50" PDP.

[TheSeeker]

With all due respects, jdobbs, your post in response to mine didn't even touch the main issue I raised, viz: using the DVD-RB/CCE combo *optimally* requires tech-tweak dedication and knowledge -- which is fine for hard-core hobbyists and pros, but for those of us who simply wish to back up DVDs with the best quality without making it our lives' work. Many people (especially s/w authors) post tons and tons of gobble about how they tweak their proggies *IN SPITE* of the movie :D

Now, if you or anyone else can write a lucid, easy-to-follow manual on using the above for "the rest of us" I'll go to 100%. But if and until then, the material I've backed up with transcoders looks virtually (to me, that is) indistinguishable from my just-guessing DVD-RB/CCE backups -- as seen on my Pioneer 50" PDP.


There are a few things to take into account when using DVD-RB:

1. Encoder? What encoder to use? I personally use two different encoders. I use CCE for pretty much anything that is mid range average bitrate (say 3000 and above approx.). This average bitrate is found when you run the DVD RB prepare phase. Shown in the status window. If you have some really really low bitrate material (maybe a long movie or old movie or extremely poorly encoded movie) or if you have a tv series, I would personally recommend Procoder 2.0. Its slow but it works wonders on low bitrate or tv series sources. I have heard that HC is a great encoder for this material as well and its free. (Procoder is around $500).

2. What quanti mats to use? In the advanced options settings you will find a quanti mat section so you can set what quanti mats are used in what situations. I use the following (and they can be found around fairly easily by searching here or on the web):

For regular movies (bitrates are approx average bitrates):

- Main Movie (its anything above 4000 I think) - Encoder default

- 3000 and lower - QLB Matrice (this comes with dvd rb by default)

- 2000 and lower - bach1 matrice

- Matrice for extras - bach1 again


For Anime:

- Main Movie - HBR Anime matrice (this is a tweaked version of the YACQM Anime matrice of my own making. PM if you want me to email to you.)

- 3000 and lower - HBR Anime matrice

- 2000 and lower - YACQM matrice

- Matrice for Extras - YACQM Matrice


3. Qual Prec Settings? (for CCE only)

I use a setting of 16 for nice new clean dvd sources. For older movies (with some blockies) you can go to like 20 or 24, and for anime you can go to 28 and up to like 40 or so is what I recommend. So if you see some blockiness or if you have an anime source, think about raising this value until the blockies go away. But beware you this will make you lose a little detail, and cause a generally softer image. Losing the detail on an anime isnt a big deal because its mostly flat colors, but on a new movie this can be disconcerting.

4. VBR Bias? I always keep mine at 20. No matter what. Hasn't steared me wrong yet.

5. Filters? If your comfortable doing it and know how, using an undot() filter on older movies or really really grainy movies might be appropriate. Possibly a deen() on really bad movies. But beware that deen() is a spatial filter and spatial cleaners should NEVER be used on interlaced sources (tv shows mostly). On progressive sources temporal or spatial filters are ok, but on interlaced ONLY USE TEMPORAL. But again, only use filters if you absolutely must. and only in dire need.


So in conclusion. All I really do is look at the source (live action or anime? average bitrate? grainy? clean?) and from there I tweak the Encoder I use. The qual prec, and the quanti mats. Thats about all I ever change on my dvd rb settings.

Let me know if your not sure how to setup your quanti mat settings in DVD RB Pro. Or have any other questions.

This is just based on my personal experiences, someone else will most likely have a different suggestion.

One last thing. I find it extremely hard to believe you see no difference between Shrink Transcoded dvd's and CCE Encoded dvd's. Especially on your 50" tv. Did you say it was an hdtv? Or regular interlaced set?

[jdobbs]

With all due respects, jdobbs, your post in response to mine didn't even touch the main issue I raised, viz: using the DVD-RB/CCE combo *optimally* requires tech-tweak dedication and knowledge -- which is fine for hard-core hobbyists and pros, but for those of us who simply wish to back up DVDs with the best quality without making it our lives' work. Many people (especially s/w authors) post tons and tons of gobble about how they tweak their proggies *IN SPITE* of the movie :D

Now, if you or anyone else can write a lucid, easy-to-follow manual on using the above for "the rest of us" I'll go to 100%. But if and until then, the material I've backed up with transcoders looks virtually (to me, that is) indistinguishable from my just-guessing DVD-RB/CCE backups -- as seen on my Pioneer 50" PDP. ???? "lucid?" If you install DVD-RB with all the defaults set and change absolutely nothing -- it will backup movies with great quality. Everything else is for people who like to play with the settings and squeeze every last bit out of an encode.

So what's the story with your attempt to be confrontational? Have a bad night? :rolleyes:

[Bret34]

There are a few things to take into account when using DVD-RB:

1. Encoder? What encoder to use? I personally use two different encoders. I use CCE for pretty much anything that is mid range average bitrate (say 3000 and above approx.). This average bitrate is found when you run the DVD RB prepare phase. Shown in the status window. If you have some really really low bitrate material (maybe a long movie or old movie or extremely poorly encoded movie) or if you have a tv series, I would personally recommend Procoder 2.0. Its slow but it works wonders on low bitrate or tv series sources. I have heard that HC is a great encoder for this material as well and its free. (Procoder is around $500).

I only use CCE (2.50 or 2.70) with DVD-RB. I don't do many tv series (only two to date), and I used DVDRB/CCE for "24" and CloneDVD for the Larry David series. Given the TV source material, the quality wasn't an issue with either.

2. What quanti mats to use? In the advanced options settings you will find a quanti mat section so you can set what quanti mats are used in what situations. I use the following (and they can be found around fairly easily by searching here or on the web):

For regular movies (bitrates are approx average bitrates):

- Main Movie (its anything above 4000 I think) - Encoder default

- 3000 and lower - QLB Matrice (this comes with dvd rb by default)

- 2000 and lower - bach1 matrice

- Matrice for extras - bach1 again

For Anime:

- Main Movie - HBR Anime matrice (this is a tweaked version of the YACQM Anime matrice of my own making. PM if you want me to email to you.)

- 3000 and lower - HBR Anime matrice

- 2000 and lower - YACQM matrice

- Matrice for Extras - YACQM Matrice


Ok, now you've lost me. I havn't found any reference to "quanti mat" (very tweaky & esoteric) settings in DVD-RB or CCE. I even did a search in many of the fora, with few references to "quanti mat" matrices, but in each case the poster *assumed* readers knew what they're talking about -- which goes to my point about some sort of optimal setting being tucked away in tweak-talk. If you'd care to tell me where to find those settings in plain english (I thought I was familiar enough with DVD-RB's setting areas), I'd appreciate it.


3. Qual Prec Settings? (for CCE only)

I use a setting of 16 for nice new clean dvd sources. For older movies (with some blockies) you can go to like 20 or 24, and for anime you can go to 28 and up to like 40 or so is what I recommend. So if you see some blockiness or if you have an anime source, think about raising this value until the blockies go away. But beware you this will make you lose a little detail, and cause a generally softer image. Losing the detail on an anime isnt a big deal because its mostly flat colors, but on a new movie this can be disconcerting.

4. VBR Bias? I always keep mine at 20. No matter what. Hasn't steared me wrong yet.

Alright, I'm back on the same page with you. I use virtually the same settings for VBR Bias & Qual Precision (with 4 passes) based on what I could glean from several of the "quides" I've read. None them seem to get into the more esoteric aspects.

5. Filters? If your comfortable doing it and know how, using an undot() filter on older movies or really really grainy movies might be appropriate. Possibly a deen() on really bad movies. But beware that deen() is a spatial filter and spatial cleaners should NEVER be used on interlaced sources (tv shows mostly). On progressive sources temporal or spatial filters are ok, but on interlaced ONLY USE TEMPORAL. But again, only use filters if you absolutely must. and only in dire need.

When it comes to filters, I get the drift, but never felt the need or to delve into writing mini scripts unless they were written for me. Too much hassle, not enough R.O.I. (return on investment:-) .

So in conclusion. All I really do is look at the source (live action or anime? average bitrate? grainy? clean?) and from there I tweak the Encoder I use. The qual prec, and the quanti mats. Thats about all I ever change on my dvd rb settings.

Well, it seems I use about 40% of the functions & tweaks you mention, but that's about it. And when it comes to CCE's internal settings, I use what the "guides" say to -- as best as I can understand.

Let me know if your not sure how to setup your quanti mat settings in DVD RB Pro. Or have any other questions.

As above...

This is just based on my personal experiences, someone else will most likely have a different suggestion.

One last thing. I find it extremely hard to believe you see no difference between Shrink Transcoded dvd's and CCE Encoded dvd's. Especially on your 50" tv. Did you say it was an hdtv? Or regular interlaced set?

It's possible my 27-yr. old eyes may not be as keen as yours. I rip with DVD Decrypter, pare down the movie-only with Shrink and transcode with IC8. Most compression ratios average about 76-80%. And yes, my Panny TH-50PHD7UY is a plasma with a wonderfully sharp 3,000:1 contrast ratio. And, yes, the transcoded movies look excellent -- I only have one plasma, so no A-B comparisons :-)

Thanks for the tips and your response -- I'll take it where I can get it...

[Bret34]

???? "lucid?" If you install DVD-RB with all the defaults set and change absolutely nothing -- it will backup movies with great quality. Everything else is for people who like to play with the settings and squeeze every last bit out of an encode.

So what's the story with your attempt to be confrontational? Have a bad night? :rolleyes:

Aww gosh, if you read anything that hinted of confrontation in my post, it was unintended. I was being straigtforward and honest. And I wish I'd posted months ago for your response about leaving all the defaults intact -- I'd have felt more confident about using the combo proggies in some reasonably optimal (operative word here is "reasonably"). Actually, DVD-RB's settings don't present the challange that CCE's do. That's where I go bonkers.

Peace...and thank you for your work on a pretty fabulous program :thanks:

[TheSeeker]

Ok, now you've lost me. I havn't found any reference to "quanti mat" (very tweaky & esoteric) settings in DVD-RB or CCE. I even did a search in many of the fora, with few references to "quanti mat" matrices, but in each case the poster *assumed* readers knew what they're talking about -- which goes to my point about some sort of optimal setting being tucked away in tweak-talk. If you'd care to tell me where to find those settings in plain english (I thought I was familiar enough with DVD-RB's setting areas), I'd appreciate it.


Ok the options for Quanti mats (Quantization Matrices) are under Options menu then Advanced (Expert) Options. When you go there you should see four different choices:

Main Feature Matrix
Low Bitrate Matrix
Very Low Bitrate Matrix
Matrix for Extras

For each of these options there is a choice of Matrices to use. So for the main Feature Matrix for example. Lets say you choose encoder default for the Main Feature Matrix. What this will do is when dvd rb comes across a segment of video (Im sure you are aware that dvd rb does segment based encoding) that has a bitrate of 4000 or higher it will apply the encoder default matrix. Which is normally the MPEG2 matrix. If you choose QLB for the Low bitrate matrix selection. Then with segments with bitrates 3000 or higher (but lower than 4000) that QLB matrix will get applied to that segment of video that is being encoded.

Essentially what a matrix does is to customize what data can be sacrificed to get that particular segment to compress to the desired size. For example most anime matrices will cause the encoder to cut off the details of the frame because anime is mostly flat colors and not details. Whereas low bitrate live action matrices tend to spread the damage out across both flat color areas and detail areas (because the detail is more important in live action movies).

Did that answer your question at all or did I just make you more confused? Also, to get some of the matrices I mentioned (such as bach1 and yacqm) do a search on the web or here on the doom9 site for yacqm or bach1 quantization matrices or matrix.

[Bret34]

Did that answer your question at all or did I just make you more confused? Also, to get some of the matrices I mentioned (such as bach1 and yacqm) do a search on the web or here on the doom9 site for yacqm or bach1 quantization matrices or matrix


Thanks for your generous time in trying to unravel the cryptic gobble of encoding. Much is clearer to me now, but I think my failure to comprehend quanti mats, if you're referring to DVD-RB, may be that I use the "free" version, 0.93, not the paid "pro" version that may contain these advanced settings.

Under the Options menu I only see a listing of the various encoders... CCE, ReJig, QuEnc etc., ...Convert to YUY2() (checked), Audio Dub (blank clip)(... and lastly the Advanced (expert) Options that only offers Filter Editor, Deinterlace with DECOMB, etc. etc. No references whatsoever to matrices. And of course the Advanced (expert) CCE settings in DVD-RB refer only to VBR, Quality Prec. and # of pass selection.

The only reference to quantizer matrice settings I did find were in CCE (ver. 2.70) under Advanced (as if the other areas are "basic":-). The pulldown menu options are "standard" (default), "MPEG standard", "smooth", "very low bitrate" and "ultra-low bitrate". I wonder if you were referring to these...though the matrix descriptions are different than yours.

Once again, thanks for your efforts -- one of these days I may find myself going to school on this stuff -- I'm already in grad school in another area so it may be awhile. In the meantime, I'm still enjoying my backed up movies :cool:

[TheSeeker]

Thanks for your generous time in trying to unravel the cryptic gobble of encoding. Much is clearer to me now, but I think my failure to comprehend quanti mats, if you're referring to DVD-RB, may be that I use the "free" version, 0.93, not the paid "pro" version that may contain these advanced settings.

Duh, *slaps forehead* thats right, that is a Pro only option (the Quantization Matrices options). The thought didn't even strike me that you may be using the free version. And actually since I use only the Pro version Im not even sure what isn't included with the Free one. Well I recommend dropping 10 mesely bucks and investing in the pro version. It has many many nice extras not the least of which is support for ILVU encoding. Don't ask, just know that when you find a dvd that has it the free version will probably choke badly. Either way, happy encoding and I hope you give dvd rb a try more often. Its a really great tool. The only thing I ever use (besides decrypter to rip and remake to get rid of menu buttons and extras and the like).

[Bret34]

Duh, *slaps forehead* thats right, that is a Pro only option (the Quantization Matrices options). The thought didn't even strike me that you may be using the free version. And actually since I use only the Pro version Im not even sure what isn't included with the Free one. Well I recommend dropping 10 mesely bucks and investing in the pro version. It has many many nice extras not the least of which is support for ILVU encoding. Don't ask, just know that when you find a dvd that has it the free version will probably choke badly. Either way, happy encoding and I hope you give dvd rb a try more often. Its a really great tool. The only thing I ever use (besides decrypter to rip and remake to get rid of menu buttons and extras and the like).

Thanks once again (and again!!) for your assistance. I finally guessed the options you spoke of were available in the "pro" version -- I have a tendency to look under every nook and cranny when I'm on a s/w learning curve.

I'll continue to use the freebie version -- I'm not a Pro and hardly deserving of that version, and I see when the "ultra pro" version comes out, the price jumps to $30.

Oh, one last question and I'll bug off...you've been way too kind as it is. Which version of CCE do you use? I've never tried the "standard" ver. 26, but it may be simpler and more suitable to my humble needs than the 2.50/2.70 cannons. And there may be no difference in most DVD-rip encoding needs between them.

Ciao!!

[TheSeeker]

Thanks once again (and again!!) for your assistance. I finally guessed the options you spoke of were available in the "pro" version -- I have a tendency to look under every nook and cranny when I'm on a s/w learning curve.

I'll continue to use the freebie version -- I'm not a Pro and hardly deserving of that version, and I see when the "ultra pro" version comes out, the price jumps to $30.

Oh, one last question and I'll bug off...you've been way too kind as it is. Which version of CCE do you use? I've never tried the "standard" ver. 26, but it may be simpler and more suitable to my humble needs than the 2.50/2.70 cannons. And there may be no difference in most DVD-rip encoding needs between them.

Ciao!!

I think for your needs. the 2.67 version (thats what your using right) should be plenty. The 2.50 is a bit faster, and the 2.70 has whats called Adaptive Quanti Matrice feature. Which tweaks the chosen quantization matrix to maximize detail and still stay on size. But some dvd players dont support this and blockiness can occur. I would stick with CCE SP 2.67 its a great version to use.

[ab21]

sorry to ask but where can I get this "DVDShrinkHQ"?

[ddlooping]

sorry to ask but where can I get this "DVDShrinkHQ"?
ab21, I think it's a name colemar made up for DVD Shrink, when the software is used with its highest quality settings (i.e, Deep Analysis, AEC -error compensation). ;)

[PandoraZboX]

I was wondering about that too, if its not a different program, then what exactly are the best settings? Is it just deep analysis or is it something more? What about the type (I use sharper, not sharpest)?