HDTV to DIVX HD or WMV HD?

[mravel]

How the best format to convert hdtv video? WMV HD or DIVX HD?
Thanks.

[hoozdapimp]

between the two, i'd pick none....I'd go with XviD instead :)

[Sirber]

Xvid produce the best quality so far for HDTV.

[XiOUS]

which quantization matrix do you use? MPEG (not H.263 i guess)? I don't know if there's any standalone DVD-player out there who can play XViD with higher resolution than 720x576, I guess that MPEG matrix is better to use for compatibility?

[Nocturno]

My Kiss dp500 @ 508 with custom firmware should support HDTV res xvids, haven't tested it though,will try it out when i find some time.
i always wanted to test out the IIP avisynth script ;)

[AlexeyS]

WMV9 and DivX are too blurry. You will loose all quality of HDTV. I have few HDTV movies in WMV format. They doesn't look like HDTV. :(

The best codecs for HDTV are VP6 (VP7 will not play - it takes too much CPU time with HDTV movies) and Xvid. But really the best is MPEG2 18-19 Mbps original movies I think.

[GaveUp]

XViD is about the best option you have, unless you want to keep the original stream, converted to PS to save space. As far as players, an xbox works great for playing 1280x720p xvids. Works like a dream.

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by GaveUp
XViD is about the best option you have, unless you want to keep the original stream, converted to PS to save space. As far as players, an xbox works great for playing 1280x720p xvids. Works like a dream.
I like HDTV movies encoded with VP6. Did you tried one? Is Xvid really better?

[GaveUp]

I can't say I have. Honestly can't say I've heard of it prior to this thread. Did a search on the forums and google, saw some hits. Guess that shows how much I keep up to date. Looking around to see if XBMC supported the format it looks like they don't so it's really of no use to me. That and the fact that I really can't find much of a flaw with the way XViD encodes turn out really leaves me unmotivated to check out VP6.

[AlexeyS]

I've just tried few codec on Shreck 1080i sample. Xvid not the best. I like VP7 and Nero AVC. But these videos play laggy even on my Athlon FX-55. :confused:

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by XiOUS
which quantization matrix do you use? MPEG (not H.263 i guess)? I don't know if there's any standalone DVD-player out there who can play XViD with higher resolution than 720x576, I guess that MPEG matrix is better to use for compatibility? Depending on where you are in the world, there are a few stand-alone players/devices that support playback of high-def Mpeg4 encode that have been generated with up to 1280x720 or even 1920x1088 pixels.

For more information please look here: -

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84003


Cheers

[JnZ]

Originally posted by XiOUS
which quantization matrix do you use? MPEG (not H.263 i guess)? I don't know if there's any standalone DVD-player out there who can play XViD with higher resolution than 720x576, I guess that MPEG matrix is better to use for compatibility?
U can use any matrix, I guess. Because used matrix is saved to produced stream. I tested few matrix for HDTV res, and my favourite is Bulletproof's HQ matrix. It si good weight between biterate vs quality. My Cyberhome 462 can play XviD AVI's with any quant matrix.

EDIT: Not bierate (how much beer flows), but biterate :D

[JnZ]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
I've just tried few codec on Shreck 1080i sample. Xvid not the best. I like VP7 and Nero AVC. But these videos play laggy even on my Athlon FX-55. :confused:
Change profile or don't use edhanced features. But mayby better choice is to encode to XviD+Qpel.

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by JnZ
Change profile or don't use edhanced features. But mayby better choice is to encode to XviD+Qpel.
Xvid gives much worse quality than AVC on big screen (sharpness and details).

What enhanced features I should turn off? :confused:

[sjchmura]

Which filter are you using for playback?

I have been stunned by teh quality at rather low bit rates (1GB/HR) XVID 960x540p (downconvery from 1080i)for TV shows like Enterprise (now going off the air :( . For 720p sources (like FOX) 2GB/HR seems the sweet spot. The best example is their recent ICE Age broadcast. Frame by frame it is very very hard to tel teh TS from teh original. Definitely very small, much better then DVD.

I don't mind the "softer" look - Enterprise still looks stunning.

[sjchmura]

I tried the AVC in the new nero ($20 after all the rebates) buy

1. It was slow
2. I simply had a hard time getting it to work. How do you target a size AND ensure 2 pass encoding.

Are you using the HDTV-AVC profile and "modifying" it? I do not want 1920x1080 if my source is 720p.

It needs to be simpler like autoGK :)

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by sjchmura
[B]Which filter are you using for playback?
Nero filter. I watch this videos with Nero ShowTime.

[AlexeyS]

Are you using the HDTV-AVC profile and "modifying" it? I do not want 1920x1080 if my source is 720p.
Yes, I'm using HDTV-AVC profile. I always encode with 1280x720p AVC (with 1080i and 720p sources).

[sjchmura]

Elexeys,

I am getting bad deinterlacing with 1080i->720p. It looks like my video is going back in time. I am

1. Choosing HDTV-AVC
2. Changing the rez to 720

WHat else should I adjust?

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by sjchmura
Elexeys,

I am getting bad deinterlacing with 1080i->720p. It looks like my video is going back in time. I am

1. Choosing HDTV-AVC
2. Changing the rez to 720

WHat else should I adjust?
I've asked same question here:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=93411

I've get very good deinterlace for my movie.

[JnZ]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
Xvid gives much worse quality than AVC on big screen (sharpness and details).

What enhanced features I should turn off? :confused:
I don't think so. AVC is better than xvid on Maximum profile,but You can't use maximum profile,bacause there is no machine,which can decode this AVC. But You can use xvid with maximum settings. So in this case I recomended xvid.

XviD is very good candidate for HDTV encoding,because:
1) Fast encoding
2) Very good details achieved
3) Not so CPU power consuming like AVC on playback

If you want encode HI-DEF to AVC, select baseline profile, but with this, you need very strong CPU on playback.

HDTV profile is not good,because it's very hard to decode for CPU.

If you have strong CPU (Athlon 3000+ and above) try to activate Qpel with XviD,otherwise not.

That's my suggestions.

[eb]

JnZ,
I am supporting your opinion,
here are samples

ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/HDFORUM960x540de.avi

ftp://www.eb.enterpol.pl:eb@www.eb.enterpol.pl/pn.mkv

[AlexeyS]

Xvid is not very good for HDTV. Try Nero AVC. Xvid is keep all details of HDTV video, but AVC does.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
Xvid is not very good for HDTV. Try Nero AVC. Xvid is keep all details of HDTV video, but AVC does. I really don't agree!

The Mpeg4/SP/ASP codec is more than capable at displaying HDTV video. You only have to look at some of DivX's high-def samples to see this ;)

Unfortunately eb's "HDFORUM960x540de.avi" sample is not the best example of an 16:9 (1.77:1) Mpeg4 HD encode, because it only contains 540 vertical pixels, which is less than you would find on a PAL DVD.

If you want to generate high-def encodes you might want to try the following pixel sizes (calculated to the nearest 16th pixel): -
1280x720 pixels for 1.77:1
1280x688 pixels for 1.85:1 with black mattes cropped
1280x544 pixels for 2.35:1 with black mattes cropped
1280x528 pixels for 2.40:1 with black mattes cropped

1920x1088 pixels for 1.77:1
1920x1040 pixels for 1.85:1 with black mattes cropped
1920x 816 pixels for 2.35:1 with black mattes cropped
1920x 800 pixels for 2.40:1 with black mattes cropped
Cheers

[AlexeyS]

I have few movies encoded with Xvid. If you have 17-19'' display then Xvid looks good. But on HDTV plasma or big LCD display, 21'' CRT you will see that Xvid is blurry sometimes.

Try it on Shreck sample video (I can send you sample). Xvid don't show textures sometimes (for example Shreck's face).

Also, I have few Xvid movies - the quality don't impress me as much as MPEG2 movies.

PS: Only VP7 and AVC give all quality of MPEG2 original movies. But VP7 has too slow decoder.

PSS: About other MPEG4 codecs. Did you saw DivX movies? Awful! DVD9 looks much better than DivX HDTV movies. WMV HD little better, but still - too blurry. Xvid is between DivX and AVC for me.

[eb]

Unfortunately eb's "HDFORUM960x540de.avi" sample is not the best example of an 16:9 (1.77:1) Mpeg4 HD encode, because it only contains 540 vertical pixels, which is less than you would find on a PAL DVD.
This is special sample, for very dynamic HDTV. Deinterlacing was made by simple discarding one field and it is giving size 1920x540 that was latter resized to 960x540.
I am always traing to keep pixel to pixel as the source to the target dimension to keep blur as low as possible.
Today we have many tools to operate with DAR, PAR to get exact display size.

eb

see this sample with VDM frame by frame

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
Try it on Shreck sample video (I can send you sample). Xvid don't show textures sometimes (for example Shreck's face).

Also, I have few Xvid movies - the quality don't impress me as much as MPEG2 movies. Can you provide more information about your "Shrek" source please? Was it 1080i or 720p?

And what settings did you use to generate your Mpeg4 encode?


Cheers

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
[B]Can you provide more information about your "Shrek" source please? Was it 1080i or 720p?
Original is 1080i. Encoded in 720p.

[/quote]And what settings did you use to generate your Mpeg4 encode?[/QUOTE]
What settings you want to know?

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
What settings you want to know? Okay...

Well you've already established you've encoded to 720p, so I assume you used 1280x720 pixels?

But how about your Mpeg4 encodes, bit-rate, frames per second setting? Was GMC, Qpel or B-VOP used? Was the encode generated over 2 passes?


Cheers

[JnZ]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
I have few movies encoded with Xvid. If you have 17-19'' display then Xvid looks good. But on HDTV plasma or big LCD display, 21'' CRT you will see that Xvid is blurry sometimes.
You make something wrong. Bad resizer/quant.matrix/or something. I make few Hi-res encodes with XviD and again, XviD surprises me.It be fully capablle to achieve full HI-DEF resolution with maximum details. All depends on biterate,settings and what quant. matrix will be used. So don't speak about that XviD is blurry sometimes.

That is why XviD is so great codec and knock-down every others (ASP) codecs.

Last times I proces original DVD LOTR:Fellowship.... EE and extrapolate it using outstanding IIP Didée script to 1024x416. Then encode it to whole DVD-R (4,37G) with one AC3 5.1. Biterate was about 2400kbps!!! using Bulletproof's HQ matrix and maximum XviD settings (no Qpel and GMC). Result are outstanding.

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by JnZ
You make something wrong. Bad resizer/quant.matrix/or something. I make few Hi-res encodes with XviD and again, XviD surprises me.It be fully capablle to achieve full HI-DEF resolution with maximum details. All depends on biterate,settings and what quant. matrix will be used. So don't speak about that XviD is blurry sometimes.
Hmmm. I get few Xvid movies - I've already said this. And I have one movie (one from Xvids) in original MPEG2. So I have one movie both in Xvid and MPEG2. I can compare. ;)

That is why XviD is so great codec and knock-down every others (ASP) codecs.

Last times I proces original DVD LOTR:Fellowship.... EE and extrapolate it using outstanding IIP Didée script to 1024x416. Then encode it to whole DVD-R (4,37G) with one AC3 5.1. Biterate was about 2400kbps!!! using Bulletproof's HQ matrix and maximum XviD settings (no Qpel and GMC). Result are outstanding.
I'm not saying that Xvid bad. I'm saying that it doesn't give you all quality of MPEG2 original movies.

But how about your Mpeg4 encodes, bit-rate, frames per second setting? Was GMC, Qpel or B-VOP used? Was the encode generated over 2 passes?
I've encoded with 3 passes with about 5800 bitrate with 24 or 30 frames per second (same bitrate I've used for all codecs to compare).

I've used B-VOPs and GMC.

One question - did you used Nero Digital AVC to compare?

[JnZ]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
I'm not saying that Xvid bad. I'm saying that it doesn't give you all quality of MPEG2 original movies.
Teoretically, if you encode MPEG2 to someting else lossy,you have lost some informations...so you can't compare original and final avi.
But!,after good combination of codec settings and avs filters you can make something, that looks much better than original. ;)

One question - did you used Nero Digital AVC to compare?
Yes I test manytimes Nero digital,in my opinion it's the best.
But in HDTV with high resolutions is little useless. (Or you have machine,that can play H264 with all features on?)(I mean on HI-RES). In this case, XviD seems to be better choice, because you can use maximum settings with xvid, but with AVC only base profile. And I think that today, XviD with maximum set is better than any 264 with baseline profile.

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by JnZ
Teoretically, if you encode MPEG2 to someting else lossy,you have lost some informations...so you can't compare original and final avi.
But!,after good combination of codec settings and avs filters you can make something, that looks much better than original. ;)
Strange theory. This right only if original is crap. ;)

Yes I test manytimes Nero digital,in my opinion it's the best.
But in HDTV with high resolutions is little useless. (Or you have machine,that can play H264 with all features on?)(I mean on HI-RES). In this case, XviD seems to be better choice, because you can use maximum settings with xvid, but with AVC only base profile. And I think that today, XviD with maximum set is better than any 264 with baseline profile.
The main thing for me is quality. I don't like Xvid quality in HDTV. I prefer to watch AVC or MPEG2...

[JnZ]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
I prefer to watch AVC or MPEG2...
Hm,I'm talking and talking,but I understand, that some people can't set XviD and fear about many settings in it. I can do maximum for best looking movie and encode some HD.
If you have good source, XviD with right settings must give superior results on 5800kbps.

Can I ask You AlexeyS,on what machine you play HI-RES AVC? It must be something like P4 on 5G on better, or use base profile? And what res you play.

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by JnZ
Hm,I'm talking and talking,but I understand, that some people can't set XviD and fear about many settings in it.
I've already said 2 times and now saying 3rd time - I have few Xvid movies. And I don't like quality.

I can do maximum for best looking movie and encode some HD.
If you have good source, XviD with right settings must give superior results on 5800kbps.
You speaking like Xvid fan.

Can I ask You AlexeyS,on what machine you play HI-RES AVC? It must be something like P4 on 5G on better, or use base profile? And what res you play.
CPU is Athlon FX-55. Always about 70% load. Always encode with 1280x720p.

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
I've encoded with 3 passes with about 5800 bitrate with 24 or 30 frames per second (same bitrate I've used for all codecs to compare).

I've used B-VOPs and GMC. If you're generating high-def encodes at these kinds of bit-rates I personally would stay away from B-VOP and very most definitely, GMC.


Cheers

[AlexeyS]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
If you're generating high-def encodes at these kinds of bit-rates I personally would stay away from B-VOP and very most definitely, GMC.


Cheers
Oops, I've wrote 3 passes - I always use 2 passes...
PS: I'll try withour B-VOP and GMC.
PSS: My Xvid movies were encoded with big Xvid fans - I think they use best Xvid settings. :)

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
Oops, I've wrote 3 passes - I always use 2 passes...
PS: I'll try withour B-VOP and GMC.
PSS: My Xvid movies were encoded with big Xvid fans - I think they use best Xvid settings. :) Consider this... one of the aspects of ASP (Advanced Simple Profile) implementations such as B-VOP, Qpel and GMC are to preserve image quality while allowing the user to reduce bit-rate.

But if don't mind how big the finished file size of your encode is going to be (ie: you're not dictated to by the bit-rate), then there's no need for you to use ASP implementations.

From a technical stand point though... an 150 min 1280x720 high-def Mpeg4 encode should easily be able to fit onto an single sided single layered DVD~R/RW ;)


Cheers

[JnZ]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
You speaking like Xvid fan.
Hm, Yes I betray myself :D I'm XviD fan. But always looking for best technologies.

I'm just encoded small HI-DEF test on may Athlon, and it looks like that my new Athlon 64 is little more powerfull than AthlonXP 3200+, I've had before. Because Nero AVC on HDTV profile can be played without lags as before (on 720p).
But can't tell CPU load,because on backround runs XviD encoding :D. So I test same thing with XviD and tell diferences...
Bye

EDIT: YOU speaking like AVC fan:D

EDIT2: Test finished CPU now at 2250MhZ. AVC: CPU load ~98%, XviD with maximum settings ~95%. Visually I prefer XviD more, because AVC has tend to blur some details. Res: 720p, 5800kbps superrior source (I think that in this case is 5800kbps too small).

[AlexeyS]

EDIT: YOU speaking like AVC fan:D
I'm the man who like VP6. ;)

EDIT2: Test finished CPU now at 2250MhZ. AVC: CPU load ~98%, XviD with maximum settings ~95%. Visually I prefer XviD more, because AVC has tend to blur some details. Res: 720p, 5800kbps superrior source (I think that in this case is 5800kbps too small). [/B]

PS: AVC don't blur any details. Give me example please.

[JnZ]

Originally posted by AlexeyS
PS: AVC don't blur any details. Give me example please.
Deleted them 5 mins ago.

But AVC is best with better profile. My point was,that AVC is still too CPU consuming. 98% load on AVC HDTV profile vs 95% XviD maximum profile. Maybe next year, situation will be much better. Everyone don't have Athlon FX-55 (IMHO best CPU on market today), even nor Athlon 64.

I don't like Nero AVC,because it use no good container. I like old avi or mkv. (mp4 cannot achieve AC3 streams and many more). But appreciate,that at now, Nero AVC is maybe the best.