Interlace lines... help please!

[telemachus]

Hello all,

I have looked on the Basics guide, read up but did not find a solution.

I am a video editor, and use a PC based Edit system. I have recently been trying to get my clients to accept Xvid instead of MPEG-1 for quality reasons... but my MPEG-1 files dont have interlace line problems, and my Xvid files do.

The temporary (time wasting) solution is to render my edited video to a field-merged 25fps uncompressed file first, and THEN render that to Xvid... but this takes a lot of time.

In the Xvid settings, I have tried selecting Interlace, and deselecting it, but have not managed to make the nasty interlace lines go away.

I would very much appreciate your expertise in this.

Thanks,

Mark.

[telemachus]

Hello again,

Just to mention also that the process of "merging fields" in my Edit system actually reduces the vertical resolution by half... so text looks a lot more jaggy than it should.

Help much appreicated!

mark.

[Guest]

If you want progressive output, then you need to apply a good adaptive deinterlacer.

[telemachus]

Hi and thanks for the reply...

So from what you are saying, there is no way to output Xvid directly from a Non Linear Edit system without those horrible lines?

Why are they not present when outputting MPEG-1 ?

Thanks,
Mark.

[Guest]

Your NLE is probably deinterlacing automatically for MPEG1 output. Your NLE probably has a deinterlacing filter and you'll find it if you look for it. If it doesn't, you can preprocess your files with a decent deinterlacer using Avisynth.

[telemachus]

Hi again Neuron,

My NLE allows the Xvid codec settings to be changed, but there is no interlace filter in the NLE's export module.

Funny thing is that Divx Pro has a setting which allows all fields to be De-Interlaced. This solves the problem, but I want to use Xvid, not Divx since Xvid is free and my clients would not want to buy hundreds of Divx Pro licenses.

If Xvid is incapable of doing this, do you know of a free MPEG-4 codec which will work?

Thanks!
Mark.

[Guest]

I am not a codec expert and rarely use MPEG4, so I cannot answer your question. However, again, I strongly suggest that you deinterlace your video using a good Avisynth deinterlacer. The results will be superior to any codec built-in functionality. This is a business for you, so any whining about Avisynth rings hollow.

Finally, I find it hard to believe a production quality NLE does not have a deinterlacer. Which one are you using? Maybe it's in the input module, not the output module.

[telemachus]

hello again

thanks for the reply.

i guess if i was using some hobbyist software like Premier or Vegas Video, I might have those kinds of things, but Discreet Logic's Edit* software was not designed for exporting compressed video, it is really meant for uncompressed real time SDI work of the highest quality... so it's export module is not the best.

using AVISYNTH, which i have never heard of up till now, means rendering my video twice... in which case I would probably be better off using Canopus Procoder which I already have.

testing WMV v9 and Divx Pro shows acceptable results with their internal ability to remove the interlace problem. Pity Xvid developers decided it was not a priority!

Thanks again.
mark.

[Guest]

Originally posted by telemachus
using AVISYNTH, which i have never heard of up till now, means rendering my video twice After confessing your ignorance, you should try to avoid making false statements in the area of ignorance!

That's the beauty of Avisynth. You don't have to render twice. It applies filters on the fly as the frames are retrieved from the input AVI. It will open up a whole new world of capabilities for you.

And again, you are not taking on board my advice to you that Avisynth has the best deinterlacers you will find. Don't you care about your output quality?

You can lead a horse to water...

[telemachus]

excuse me neurnot

perhaps you dont understand how NLE's work?
let me explain slowly...

at present I render directly from the timeline to Xvid (with crappy interlace lines). Avisynth would have no way of "seeing" the files on my timeline, so this means I would have to

1/ render the final edited show out of my NLE to a file before I could then open it with avisynth

2/ open with Avisynth and render to Xvid.

1+1=2 renders
kapish?

i would rather find a codec which has that capability within itself so as to avoid two renders. Pity Xvid does not cut it.

mark.

[Guest]

Originally posted by telemachus
perhaps you dont understand how NLE's work?
let me explain slowly... Being condescending to people trying to help you seems counterproductive to me.

at present I render directly from the timeline to Xvid (with crappy interlace lines). Avisynth would have no way of "seeing" the files on my timeline, That's just not true. You don't know what you're talking about.

[telemachus]

yawn.
ok you win
bye:rolleyes:

[Scarfac3]

why do you even care about rendering times?

[telemachus]

scarface,
i thought (probably incorrectly) that avisynth would not be able to help with what i want to do. What i certainly dont want to do is render things more than once for quality and time reasons.
why do i care about rendering times?
life is short.

[L'il Jerry]

Originally posted by telemachus
What i certainly dont want to do is render things more than once for quality and time reasons.

Well with Avisynth you don't render twice like Neuron2 has been repeatedly trying to tell you. Feeding it avisynth input is almost exactly like feeding it an uncompressed avi file and you only render the file once. Besides like he said, built in codec deinterlacers are pretty poor which is probably why XviD didn't implement one. Maybe you should go to www.avisynth.org and actually read up on the program before you make comments and judgements about it with no knowledge of it whatsoever. :)

[telemachus]

believe me, i have been to avisynth several times, but writing complicated scripts to output looks very hard, and the site does not seem to offer templates for exporting to xvid with deinterlaced frames... that would be very nice.

what got me was neurot's condescending attitude... forums are a place where people can help each other, not look down from on high to make oneself look clever at the expense of another.

[L'il Jerry]

Originally posted by telemachus
believe me, i have been to avisynth several times, but writing complicated scripts to output looks very hard, and the site does not seem to offer templates for exporting to xvid with deinterlaced frames... that would be very nice.

Actually its quite simple once you get the basics down. If you need help you can just head over to the avisynth board and ask for it and tons of people will help you. To get you started you may want to do a search for such filters as TDeint or KernelDeint. The filters come with pretty comprehensive readme files on how to use them. Hope that helps out.

[drcl]

Originally posted by telemachus
[B]excuse me neurnot

perhaps you dont understand how NLE's work?
let me explain slowly...

at present I render directly from the timeline to Xvid (with crappy interlace lines). Avisynth would have no way of "seeing" the files on my timeline, so this means I would have to

1/ render the final edited show out of my NLE to a file before I could then open it with avisynth

2/ open with Avisynth and render to Xvid.

1+1=2 renders
kapish?

i would rather find a codec which has that capability within itself so as to avoid two renders. Pity Xvid does not cut it.



This is so funny! Someone trying to explain NLEs to the great Neuron2! i cant stop smiling!

Maybe this guy should compare his body of work to Donald's little collection??? I wonder..... http://neuron2.net/mine.html
he might find a good deinterlacer or 3

Cant figure out AVISynth? Maybe he wants to pick a fight with BenRG too?

[Guest]

Originally posted by telemachus
believe me, i have been to avisynth several times, but writing complicated scripts to output looks very hard, and the site does not seem to offer templates for exporting to xvid with deinterlaced frames... that would be very nice. Here's your complicated script for "exporting to xvid with deinterlaced frames":

loadplugin("decomb.dll")
fielddeinterlace("yourfile.avi") Actually, what it does is import deinterlaced frames into your NLE. You can output them in any way you like. That's why we keep saying that you don't have to render twice; the frames are deinterlaced on input.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that my handle is "neuron2" and not "neurot". I'd appreciate your using my correct handle. Thank you.

[telemachus]

hello neuron2 and all,

so from what you are saying (and from what i THINK i gather from the avisynth site) i should

1/ save

loadplugin("decomb.dll")
fielddeinterlace("yourfile.avi")

as an avs file, say "NABPROMO.avs"

2/ export my edited show using the NLE's export module, choosing Xvid, but then rendering it as "NABPROMO.avs"

3/ Avisynth kicks in when the avs file is accessed and it will in turn access Virtualdub to render the file as "yourfile.avi"

Or am I still floundering in Avisynth darkness?

Thanks for the responses,

Mark.

[Guest]

Step 1 is good. Make the AVS script.

But now you open the AVS file in your NLE! You should have deinterlaced video. Just do your thing as you normally would from there.

[Sharktooth]

ok, let's get it straigth.
You have a MPEG file, avisynth installed, a non linear editor and xvid.
You have to:
1) Create a text file containing:
- one or more lines of avisynth script for importing the necessary plugins [example: loadplugin("drive:\path\decomb.dll")]
- a line of avisynth script for IMPORTING the mpeg file using directshowsource("drive:\path\file.mpg") or mpegsource("drive:\path\file.mpg") functions (the last requires a plugin so you have to add it to the script).
- a line with the filter for deinterlacing the source [fielddeinterlace("drive:\path\yourfile.avi")]
2) Save the file and change its extention to .avs
3) Load the .avs file in the NLE in place of the mpeg file
4) Do what you do regularly with the editor
...
N) Export the final rendering compressing it with xvid

So your resulting .avs file will contain:

loadplugin("drive:\path\decomb.dll")
directshowsource("drive:\path\file.mpg")
fielddeinterlace("drive:\path\yourfile.avi")

Now, remember to load the .avs file in your editor and NOT the mpeg file.

[drcl]

Maybe im wrong but technically speaking, isnt AviSynth a NLE minus a GUI? Just seems like it doesnt have lots of special effects modules currently, yet i dont see any reason why it couldnt.

[Blue_MiSfit]

This is all assuming your NLE accepts avs input :)

All you really need to put into most basic avs scripts is the following
1) loadplugin(...) calls
2) some sort of source call like directshowsource(...), avisource(...)
3) some sort of function (loaded by a plugin) call, like fielddeinterlace(...) or unfilter(...).

Give avisynth a chance, its amazingly powerful, and once you get over the little learning curve "hump" it will never cease to amaze you.

Look into denoising too, it's IMHO one of the most powerful features of AVS, essential do doing good dvd rips etc...

learn :)

~misfit

[drcl]

Indeed, does Discreet Logic's Edit access AVIs through windows native code or use a proprietary access system. If the latter is true then I think this has all been a big waste of time.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[telemachus]

Hi there

I will be going to work in about 10 mins, so cant write much but will test to see if Edit* can input AVS files. I imagine not.

Besides that, the Video and Audio files that Edit* uses are not interweaved. When you capture SDI, Component, whateever, the Video is captured on one stripe set and the audio on another, so there is no audio in "myfile.avi" and it only relates to "myfile.wav" via Edit*'s internal database.

So my guess is if even the AVS could be seen, I would have no audio.

Edit* only works with Pinnacle YUV, Targa 3/2000 codecs, all others will be converted to Pinnacle or T2/3 codecs on import.

I will try it.

Thanks for all the info.

Speak later today
Mark.

[Leak]

Originally posted by telemachus
So my guess is if even the AVS could be seen, I would have no audio.


AudioDub(AVISource("Video.avi"),WAVSource("Audio.wav"))


There you go...

[telemachus]

hello again all...

I have a moment to write while I render some animation, but I just realised that i dont think this Avisynth solution can work for me. I have not tried it technically, and will out of curiosity, but here is why:

I thought Avisynth kicked in when rendering the Edit* timeline. From what you guys describe, it acts on the way Edit* "sees" the source file. The rather huge problem is that even if it did work technically, I would have to write scripts for every single piece of media in my timeline, which can amount to a couple of hundred separate files, and then their associated audio files.

Replacing each event in the timeline with a new imported event would literally take days. If Avisynth could pick up on Edit*'s output and send THAT to Virtualdub, then it could work, but the way it seems to work would mean doing a re-edit as well as major encoding.

It would be a lot faster to output an uncompressed AVI or MOV and then open that and render to Xvid with de-interlace filters in virtualdub.

I would love to have found a solution that works directly from Edit*, but as you can see, it would take much longer to do it with Avisynth...

I just wish Xvid had a deinterlace option!

Thanks for all the help and interesting journey... and pardon the bumpy ride.

Regards,
mark.

ps, I will try to open an avi file via the scripts you guys have given me, to see if it can technically be done with Edit. I will also let you know just for interest's sake.

[telemachus]

Oh,

the other thing is that about 90% of the media that ends up in my Edit* system comes from Betacam, Digibeta, DVCam source tapes, and the use of SMPTE time code is vital.

capturing happens from tape directly into Bins in the Edit* software, so there would be no way to interlace the footage while capturing using Avisynth since you are capturing off tape, not Importing AVI files.

this damned render i am doing is taking all day... so i may not get a chance to test the AVS importing possibility.

Till later
Mark.