NuMenu4U and DVD ReBuilder

[wmansir]

Zeul has been generous enough to start integrating DVD-RB support into the excellent NuMenu4U DVD menu compression program. This thread is intended to help track down and eliminate any bugs related to NuMenu4U's integration with DVD-RB.

This thread is not to be used for NuMenu4U's core development discussion, such as general errors, suggestions or feedback not related to DVD ReBuilder. There is a thread for general NuMenu4U discussion stickied in the Big3 Forum (http://forum.doom9.org/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=66). The current thread is here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89505), but is subject to change with later releases.

Previous discussion on this topic can be found here (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88853).

[Zeul]

Anyone reading this for the first time: NuMenu4u requires Scenarist to be installed or if you have donated to receive VIP status then Muxman can be used instead (either the free version or the VIP version)

[Zeul]

For all RB users
ReBuilder will fail if you are running NuMenu4u straight from the disc and not an ISO image. NuMenu4u will copy over the remaining non-menu files itself, which will leave the CSS encryption intact. I am working on a new build that will use DVD Decrypter so removing this restriction.

[survivant]

that's a good news. So with Numenu we will be able to convert Pal menus to NTSC menus. I can reencode the video with Procoder. The audio, still no easy solution :(

Can I use Procoder to output the audio in wav format and use a third party software to reencode the wav to ac3 ?

[damian_dimitri]

@Zeul,

is that a mounted iso or just a iso ripped to hdd

ty

Damian

[Zeul]

A mounted iso is needed

[Zeul]

I have released a new version with important improvements for Rebuilder users:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=610301#post610301

[damian_dimitri]

good morning

ty for the good work

[Zeul]

:D

[HanSolo00]

Zeul, great work... I've already tried it on a disc and it worked so well I plan on using it (instead of Shrink) to compress those bloated menus on all my backups from now on. I'm getting roughly 60% menu size reduction while keeping menu bitrate high enough (3000kbs) for no visible loss in quality--and using CCE 5-pass VBR, is much better visually than Shrinking the menus.

Can't wait to try a PAL->NTSC menu conversion.

Thanks!

[Zeul]

HanSolo00

So much praise :cool:
Thanks for the feedback.

[jdobbs]

@Zeul

Let me know if you need anything from me. :)

[Zeul]

@jdobbs

Well i'm not sure really - my understanding is that at some point Rebuilder will do menu compression itself. However until then, i dunno...
Thinking out loud, but maybe some commandline support - so Rebuilder is started automatically, and instead of changing the ini, perhaps a switch for the path etc etc.

My biggest PITA though is scenarist.

I am looking at ways of demuxing direct from a folder instead of an iso image. This is more important now as I believe that more and more people using Rebuilder or the 'big 3' are working straight from the disc and not an iso. Doing it this way doesn't allow dvd decrypter to remove these new pesky encryption methods. Thanks to Angelus I have come across one where the disc has 15 VTS sets, but only 13 are listed in the VIDEO_TS.IFO. Hopefully this sort of thing that none of us can predict would be removed by dvd dec, removing some of the errors we all experience.

[Zeul]

new build
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&postid=610301#post610301

[Zeul]

This may not be apparant, but to use force NuMenu4u into Rebuilder mode, you must set the Rebuilder path under Default settings and then press 'enable rebuilder support'. This will open up Rebuilder with the correct working directory when NuMenu4u has finished, and will also copy all the non-menu files into the VIDEO_TS folder (working dir) with DVD Decrypter, so any copy protection or CCS can be removed.

[brashquido]

I've tried using NuMenu4u 2.04 with DVD-RB 0.77 for the first time to try and reduce the 500MB menu in Finding Nemo. I think it is more likely that this is just a PEBCAK issue, but I can't seem to get DVD-RB to mount the VIDEO_TS directory created by NuMenu4u once it has finished. Another question, if you are only using DVD-RB, do you still need Scenarist installed for it to work?

[Zeul]

Yes you still need Scenarist. Does Rebuilder not 'see' the files in the VIDEO_TS or what?

[brashquido]

That'll do it then, as I don't have Scenarist installed.

[JollyJoker]

Can someone tell me what the best setting for this program are?

Now i encode with 2500 average bitrate 6 passes CCE, Q Factor 45.

Is this a good setting or is there a better one ?

[Zeul]

JollyJoker
Personally I always use multipass with CCE and 4 passes. Ave bitrate 2500. Q factor is only used for 1 pass.

[mpiper]

I understand that this needs Scenarist.

What scenarist is this? The only one I know of is Sonic Scenarist, which is mucho dinero! Is there another one? Or a feature limited demo, or what?

Thanks,
Mike

[HanSolo00]

Bitrate used depends on the menu--I've seen some that have so much motion (like the rainy menu in 'Basic') that they look awful at less than 3600Kbs... because the menu segments are so short that VBR isn't effective as it is on longer movie segments. Other menus may only need 2500, if they aren't too complex.

Most main movie cells are much longer and have busy and slow parts, so you get better bitrate allocation, which is why VBR works better on longer segments. With those short menu bits, you pretty much have to try a bitrate, encode/test it, and repeat until it looks good.

mrpiper: Sonic Scenarist is required for the DVD authoring component of NuMenu4U's processing.

[artoor]

Sonic Scenarist is required for the DVD authoring component of NuMenu4U's processing.
Hmmm... it's rather a pity... maybe Zeul will change it in the future ;) (if it is possible)

[mpiper]

This is just a bit depressing.
I own Adobe PhotoShop, Premiere, Encore, Audition, Nero, CCE and a bunch of other programs. I like these little GUIs that save effort on what are basically repetitious, almost batch-type actions, such as DVD Rebuilder. But I am not wiling to buy another expensive program that I will never use except as an encoder engine for a free (but really nicely designed) program.

I just did a quick internet search. do you know how hard it is to find a reseller in Texas for this? What is the current retail price on it?

Another thought, Would one of the other Sonic DVD authoring programs work for this?

Mike

[Zeul]

I am working on using muxman instead, but it is in its early stages.

[TuRiSOft]

I noticed that using a given bitrate for compressing menus results in some cells with average q=14 , others with av q=4 , others with av q=1 and so on (I usually use av brate=2550). Why don't use something like DVD-RB algorithm , i.e. a percentage reduction.
For example I would like to choose 70% reduction and NuMenu4u , depending on original size and nr. of frames in a cell, decides its own target bitrate automatically!
Is it possible to implement?
Or we can also choose the target bitrate and NuMenu4U , depending on total frames of the whole menu cells , and the original size of each one , can assign everyone of them a target bitrate .
This only to have same quallity results on almost all menu cells.
Thanks in advance!

[HanSolo00]

Originally posted by mpiper
I just did a quick internet search. do you know how hard it is to find a reseller in Texas for this? What is the current retail price on it?

Scenarist 3 Professional is in the $5,000 to $35,000 (USD) range, the higher end including hardware. The target market is professional DVD authoring shops... not hobbyists.

You can find a local dealer through the dealer locator on the Sonic site at http://sonic.com/resellers/locate/default.aspx. There is one in Dallas, TX.

As long as donations continue to support the project, I suspect re-encoding of the video stream of menu vobs will eventually be incorporated into DVD-RB. Until then, you can always pre-process with Shrink to compress large menu vobs as needed (or NuMenu4U at the moment, if you have Scenarist.)

[jdobbs]

Reencoding menus is in the near future. Hmm... for the price of one copy of Scenarist I could to it a lot faster... :D

[Zeul]

HAHA :D

[TuRiSOft]

I'd like if the great NuMenu4u from ZEUL would have something like "Dinamically Assign Cells Bitrate". That's because everytime I Re-encode a menu w/it (I like to use it with dvd-rb support since it is available) I have to try on and on until find a reasonable quality/bitrate target. It will be a good thing to know the original bitrate of the VTS menu Cell , then it can find and suggest the user a reasonable (in terms of quality) bitrate -for example using a routine like the one used to find Q factor in DVD-RB- , final asking the user to choose an average bitrate for re-encoding , assigning the cells an amount of B/R depending on its original one.

I know it's not so easy to implement and most of us don't know what to do whit this , but for people like me , who spent hours on searching the better quality , it would be great.

Zeul , please consider this only a little suggestion , I love the results of over 1 year (or more) of hard work , and I never dubitate you just did your best (as same as jdobbs , in fact) . Words are not easy for someone (like me) not english (it tooked me about 1/2 hour to write down this) , but I have to give to all of you all my appreciations and ,last but not least , I love this great community of Doom9 , wich gave me the opportunity of learn , at least , a bit more of english writing and reading.

Bye to all!!!!

[Zeul]

I have been thinking of something like this, it just hasn't been a priority. A replacement for scenarist is :D

[Zeul]

I have released a new build that includes some improvements for rebuilder users:

option to open a folder as source instead of iso images,
muxman can be used for authoring (if you are a VIP user)
choice of where to put the new menu files - into the source folder ready for rebuilder or copy over the remaining files etc etc

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89956

[Zeul]

New build available

[the phoenix]

hi
i'm looking for a guide to use numenu with rebuilder, any adress ?
thx

[Zeul]

use the help file, that comes with numenu. It will tell you the exact setting to use in numenu. When RB opens up at the end, use as normal

[the phoenix]

thx i'll do that

[Zeul]

Please note there is an updated build, that corrects some errors.

[Delphin]

I am working on using muxman instead, but it is in its early stages.

It would seem that the open-source freely available "DVDauthor" is ideal for the type of menu re-authoring done by your application because it has a simple XML based scripting control language and can already handle both simple single VTS projects and much more complex multi VTS projects including DVD Virtual Machine register control and scripting.

It's a simple WIN32 console app. you just write the XML script and then call the DVDauthor.exe application with the name of the XML script file.

There are a lot of applications which already automate the DVDauthor engine and fairly complex menu structures seem to be possible.

If you want the latest WIN32 binaries to experiment with you can grab them already compiled from . . .

http://www.videohelp.com/~gfd/edcounter.php?file=download/dvdauthor-0.6.12-alpha-2992-GfD.zip

or get the source at . . .

http://dvdauthor.sourceforge.net/

There are already several frontend GUI's for DVDauthor, two of the best Win32 frontends are . . .

Gui for DVDauthor (source available)

http://www.videohelp.com/~gfd/

and

DVDauthorGUI . . .

http://www.videohelp.com/~liquid217/dvdauthorgui.pl?p=news

(tips PDF document at DVDauthorGUI site shows scripting examples for complex multilevel "play-one" or "play-all" menus in DVDauthor using DVD virtual machine registers)


The documentation on the home page is thin but there is a forum at . . .

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=13261


Also the DVDauthor project includes sources for DVDunauthor (note "un"-author) which will supposedly disassemble a standard already authored DVD into primitive streams and a DVDauthor compatible XML control file (which should give you some hints for your menu-2-DVDauthor XML code generation).

Just a thought . . .

[Zeul]

I have tried DVDAuthor. The main problem is that I recreate the Menu entirely, including all the command structures, but DVDAuthor does not support all of the GPRM values. Now that muxman is available, and does support everything i have thrown at it, i see no reason to add a third authoring solution.

[Zyphon]

Yeah I think Muxman is the way to go, could someone please be kind of enough to post a screenshot of Muxman VIP edition as I use DVD-Lab Pro and was thinking of upgrading from the free version to the VIP version of Muxman and I can't find any screenshots of it to see its interface.

It would be appreciated. :)

[Zeul]

The GUI is no different from the Basic version - however there are additional screens that are accessed during processing. Check out the Help file, it has detailed info about the VIP parts & screenshot of the main button stripping interface.

[Zyphon]

Hi Zeul,

Thanks for the info I shall check it out and read the readme. :)

[Delphin]

I have tried DVDAuthor. The main problem is that I recreate the Menu entirely, including all the command structures, but DVDAuthor does not support all of the GPRM values. Now that muxman is available, and does support everything i have thrown at it, i see no reason to add a third authoring solution.

Yes I see your point, 3 of what DVDauthor refers to as 'G' registers are reserved for internal operations. I think the 'S' registers are only restricted based on player limitations, but, I would agree that overall the XML scripting interface is geared toward DVDauthor calling most of the shots with minimal user input.

Of course the full C language source for all the DVDauthor components is available so you could strip out the lower level stream muxing code from the XML parser code and do pretty much anything you want.

The code is sparsely commented but seems to be very logically laid out, and development is still going on so there should be someone that can help answer questions about the DVDauthor internal module parameter passing.

The only advantage to this would be that you could build an very clean stand-alone application, with all the required authoring/muxing code compiled right into your NuMenu4U app.

The MuxMan code must be moving pretty fast, because when I looked at it only last month, it was buggy and could barley produce anything resembling a functional DVD (of course that wasn't the 'members only' version).

So you have obviously seen a more advanced version than I did.

If MuxMan development is moving that fast, all the more reason to go in that direction:)

Anyway, as I said, just a thought . . .

Regardless of how you go, I be happy to see you come up with an alternative to a program that less than 0.0001 percent of the DOOM forum members can afford to buy, but which a disconcerting LARGE portion of the users seem to admit to USING (how do they manage that, do you suppose?) :confused:

[Zeul]

Well Muxman is now at a stage where full dvd authoring is a reality. If you have the VIP version of NuMenu then muxman is used. Even if you only have the free version of muxman, NuMenu can still use this and create a complete Menu.
With regard to incorporating DVDAuthor - although a possibility - it still requires that mplex being used to multiplex the video & audio first. DVDAuthor just fills in the Navigation Pack details. Mplex though, does not create fully compliant VOB files, Muxman does.
So unless the entire theory behind DVDAuthor is changed (ie it multiplexes itself), I see no benefit.

[the phoenix]

hi,

got a problem, numenu runs well but after completion... nothing, it doesn't open rebuilder.
i've set has in the help file but i say he help file is not that clear to me.
any guide somewhere ?
zeul any id of what is happening ?
thx

[Zeul]

hmm
The help file seemed clear enough to me (except for the scenarist settings - i will amend that).

The settings required depend on whether your source is an actual DVD, an image mounted with Daemon-tools or a decrypted folder on your hard drive.

Choose the path to rebuilder and select the option 'Open Rebuilder'
Under scenarist tab ensure that option #4 (import, compile and close) is selected.

If your source is a DVD / image then you want copy option #3 and select 'Use DVDDecrypter for copying'

If your source is a folder on the hard drive and you want this folder left intact then you want copy option #3

If your source is a folder on the hard drive and you want this folder to be used by Rebuilder then you want copy option #2

what version of Rebuilder are you using?
what is your source, and what is the Rebuilder path?

[the phoenix]

thx zeul

i use rbpro 0.93.2, numenu is 2.0.19
the source is an image mounted with daemon.
rebuilder path is c:\program files\dvd-rb pro\rebuiler.exe
the thing that i don't have scenarist installed, is it the source of the problem ?

[Zeul]

Yep it certainly is. Scenarist is used for reauthoring unless you are a VIP user in which case Muxman is used instead.

[the phoenix]

ok
is there a version of numenu that works with rebuilder without scenarist ?

[Zeul]

nope, 'fraid not. Scenarist or Muxman is needed