DVD Backup Degradation

[goretusk]

Sometimes a backup of mine will not work correctly right after it is burned. At some point in the video it will just freeze...or be really jumpy, it of course doesn't do it when I test it on the PC. I heard that taking out layer breaks where they are not necessary helps, so I've been doing that.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows another reason, something to avoid...or precautions to take. My Chappelle Show Season 1 DVD 1 is now doing it, so I'm going to have to redo that one. I'm worried that I'm wasting time and money on my backups!

What are the possible causes? Can disc labels have anything to do with it? The encode process, maybe the DVDs are bad? I mean...how can I tell before I burn it or test the burn after I've done it to make sure it will hold up. I can't watch every single movie right after I do the backup :/ Too time consuming.

Any help is appreciated, thanks.

[outsideAG]

I certainly can't say for sure what your problem is, but this sounds similar to problems I have had with bad burns.

What kind of DVDR media are you using?

I use Ritek G-05 (8X certified) and it will have errors sometimes even burning at 4X.

I would recommend getting DVD Info, and using its burn verification feature to make sure that your burn was succesful.

[Fishman0919]

The problem you are having can be a number of thing, type of media (DVD-r - DVD+r, brand), DVD Player, program you are using to burn..... a whole bunch of thing. Any Info you can give may help in solving your problem.

[goretusk]

I am also using Ritek media G05. I've tried running programs after a burn has completed, and it never gives an error...even if the disc is just totally hosed, I never get any errors! It drives me crazy, I've tried DVD Info, and I've tried Kprobe on a computer with a liteon dvd drive.

I'm using the DVD-RB method to do all my backups, and then I'm using imgtool to create an image and dvd decrypter to burn them. Any suggestions are welcomed.

[Trahald]

ive heard of people that have playback problems that were solved by stopping the use of labels. they sometimes cause wobble in the disk during playback which causes some data to have to be read multiple times causing buffer to empty and cause jumpiness/blockiness or worse. this wont happen with all players

[goretusk]

That's an interesting thought Trahald, only thing is...it will do it on all dvd players, except for PC DVD-ROM which seem to be able to read anything without any problems. Currently I'm putting one of the DVDs that is jacked through DVDinfo, and it's finding errors...but I've watched it before and this is a recent development :/...so I don't understand. I've watch it before...there aren't any scratches or anything.

Another rumor I heard about was that the ink from the labels bleeds through the back of the label and is somehow corrosive to the disc? Possibly making it develop playback issues. Like I said, this is a new development...some discs do this right after burning, but that's a bad rip...because I've burned two discs, back to back...with the same image, and they both had the same issue.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by goretusk
Sometimes a backup of mine will not work correctly right after it is burned. At some point in the video it will just freeze...or be really jumpy, it of course doesn't do it when I test it on the PC. I heard that taking out layer breaks where they are not necessary helps, so I've been doing that.

I'm just wondering if anyone knows another reason, something to avoid...or precautions to take. My Chappelle Show Season 1 DVD 1 is now doing it, so I'm going to have to redo that one. I'm worried that I'm wasting time and money on my backups!

What are the possible causes? Can disc labels have anything to do with it? The encode process, maybe the DVDs are bad? I mean...how can I tell before I burn it or test the burn after I've done it to make sure it will hold up. I can't watch every single movie right after I do the backup :/ Too time consuming.

Any help is appreciated, thanks. I'd suggest you not remove "layer breaks". There actually is no such thing as a "layer break" except at the physical level. What you are removing is an SCR discontinuity. One reason for an SCR discontinuity can be a layer break -- but there are many, many other reasons. The problem you are experiencing could very possibly be due to the fact that you've removed a discontinuity that should have been left alone. Jumpy and freezing video can both be signs of problems with system timing (related to SCR).

Also -- I would never recommend the use of paper labels on a DVD. You are much better using the clear plastic type (lightweight).

There have also been reports of some cheaper DVD-R's not holding their data over time. Personally I've never had a problem.

[Sir Didymus]

Just for curiousity, at what speed did you burn the disks ?

[ron spencer]

to be honest the only media you should use is beither Verbatim, Maxell (real maxell) or TY...why use Ritek? Sooooo many posts of bad media.

[Rockas]

There's another issue... compatibility between Burner and media.
Just an example:
I have a Samsung ts-h552b(dl) and an LG gsa-4040b
Sometime ago I bought a spindle of DVD-R 8X (brand BUDGET)
I couldn't burn that media on my Samsung (not even at 2X) but on my LG they were burned at 4X (the maximum burning speed of this old friend) with a 100% success.

My advice to you is that you should try to find the best media for your burner.

keep it UP

[ron spencer]

I agree...which is why I listed the 3 brands above....no matter what forum you search these brands (verbatim, ty, and Maxell) ALL burn without people complaining....it is the off-brands (BUDGET?????) that mess it all up. I would be willing to bet that these 3 are the most compatible at ALL speeds amoungst writers

[jptheripper]

interesting, i have had bad experiences with verbatim and maxell (especially maxell) but over 300 burns with ritek and 0 errors. Odd, everyone is different i guess.

I never burn faster than 2x

as for labels.. never ever use them,

[jdobbs]

I guess it all depends. I've always had really good luck with Riteks. But I got a spool of 25 a few months ago that were terrible. Generally speaking, though, IMHO they all seem to be roughly equal (branded and unbranded). They all kick out a few clinkers every now and then.

[f@chance]

The problems that he experiences all went away when I started using Tayio Yuden white printables. SVP.co.uk carries genuine TYs. I never will go back to Ritek since I burned my first 100 TY's. Further stickers on a DVD are absolute murder. Played fine in the player before sticking them on, after massive pixelation.

Get yourself 100 Ty's, printable buy an Epson printer that prints directly onto the disks and youare set for some major production.

[bobkoure]

Originally posted by jdobbs ...I've always had really good luck with Riteks. I've had good luck with the 4X Riteks as well, but the 8X ones are laughably bad. I'm most of the way through a 50-piece "cake box" (3 left) of the 8X ones, of which:
- 24 were refused by my DVD writer ("power calibration error")
- 6 were not refused but the burn failed partway through
- 2 appeared to be good burns but post-burn validation failed
DVD drive is a Pioneer 8X (standard Pioneer firmware, latest available from their website), software is Nero 6.3.1.15.

The two DVDs that I've had fail after originally playing OK, were Beall 4X media, though - although I'm not totally sure they were totally OK in the first place as I'd made these before I got in the habit of doing a verify on a different DVD drive...

On the other hand, I've used 200+ of the 4X Ritek media (mostly data backup, but bits are bits, right?) with only two or three total that have failed verification - and not a single one refused by the burner.

I'm a little nerved out by the Beall failures as I'd been using these to back up Exchange databases for a couple of law offices. I'd hate to have them need something from offsite storage from a couple of years back and for it to be unavailable because of this. I've done a random test (about every 10th one or so) and I haven't found any failures, but still...

BTW, It took me a bit to figure out what Pioneer meant by "power calibration error" - AFAICT (after a web search) it means that the burner has tried to write in a "scratch" area, and when it tried to read back what it wrote there was a miss-match. I'm assuming that this means that these refused disks are now no good, but who knows. If you're in the Boston area and want 'em, drop me a line and you can come and get 'em - otherwise they'll just remain, in a cake box as a reminder of what not to buy next time... :)

[jdobbs]

Hmmm... I've never actually tried the 8x Riteks yet. I've been using 4x for a long time. I did pick up some 8x discs locally (BJ Wholesale, CMC I thing) and they seem to work well.

[NobbyNobbs]

There are a tread or two both here and other places about major problems with newer BeAll discs (Samsung).
Acording to some, they can start to go "bad" after just a few days.

[goretusk]

hmmm, well that gives me a lot to think about it. I've been really happy with the Riteks though, I've never made a coaster with any of them. And I've burned probably 300 of them. Seriously, unless it was operator error, not ONE single coaster. I guess I can stop with the paper labels....as far as buying media like TY, I can try it...the stuff that I see is no more expensive than the Ritek anyway...Can someone give me model numbers so that I know what is genuine TY?

I see:

DVD-R47ZZSB8 - 8x, for .47 - .49 each
DVD-R47WPT600SK - 8x, for .83 each (these are printable)
DVD-R47WPP600SK - 8x, for .68 each (these are also printable)

Any suggestions?

Buying the printable ones defeats the purpose of doing the backups in the first place, I mean..$83 for 100 DVD-R? That's twice as much as the riteks...

[VamPYR]

@NobbyNobbs
BeAll 4x dvd-r was horrible media, i got this 'start to go "bad" after just a few days' experienced with 500 BeAll 4x dvd-r order from meritline fews month ago, still got hundred left now and will not 'touch' it anymore, there are nightmare.

[bobkoure]

By "start to go bad" do you mean unreadable sections when you try to read in a DVD reader (on a PC or Mac) - or do you mean problems in a set-top DVD player?
I've a bunch of recorded-on Beall 4x disks, but they're mostly computer data. The ones I've tested I can still read completely in a DVD reader (just copying all data to a hard drive "temp" directory to test). Or is this mostly a problem with very recent Beall disks - I switched to Ritek 4x 9 months or a year ago...(?)

[ron spencer]

don't mean to be rude...but why do people buy these junk discs? BeAll?????? Come on..when you get 500 for $50 or whatever....you know it is junk. stay with the good media.

I have burned over 350 discs on 4 different types of writers....never one coaster or set-top playing issue..spreaks for itself

[VamPYR]

@ron spencer
i dont spend whole day watching movie, thats why i backup them to watch later (some already watch once, just to backup and keep it). Those BeAll disc will play perfect after burn, and the disc scan perfect using software. I test most backup after burned by skipping chapter by chapter to make sure they are no playback problem in my SA, after that i'll keep it and watch it later. guess already have a perfect backup, but its not, the problem only showing up 'later', after done many hundred backup.
And for a person new to dvd media, saw this media stated 'Premium Grade' & 'Exclusive' & made in korea at Meritline.com (http://www.meritline.com/dvd-r-blank-media-1.html) and the price are not 'cheap'(500 dvd-r for $50? i dont think anyone will get that price, whould you?) even higher than ritek g04(in that period), i thought the quality must be 'ok', thats why i bought it.
'but why do people buy these junk discs?'
they are some people bought & using it, some have the same problem, some do not & some didn't realise yet the problem.
http://club.cdfreaks.com/showthread.php?t=112938&highlight=scan+beall
Now i've gone through 500 of prodisc MCC02 & F01, there are cheap but doing good (at least at this moment).
thanks for you opinion: 'stay with the good media.'
i will.
regards.

[NobbyNobbs]

@Ron Spencer

You say stay with the good media, do you mean Brand, as your posts sugest, or maker ?
CMC have had a reputation for making crappy CD's, but most Verbatim DVD's today are CMC Magnetics, not MMC (Mitshubishi Chemical Corporation) even if Verbatim is the house brand.

I know several people who have problems with Verbatim DVD's, have none myself, but I do not have any problems with Ritek either, with DVD's the burner & the Firmware you use also have a real impact.

[bobkoure]

Originally posted by ron spencer
... why do people buy these junk discs?... Why did people buy what we would now consider to be "junk" CPUs? They're overpriced and slow compared to what we can get now...
At the time, Beall media had a decent reputation, wasn't way expensive and burned/verified just fine. They appeared to not be junk disks (which were available for quite a bit less than the Bealls) but simply the least expensive of the "decent" disks.
The price for supposedly-more-reliable media has only recently come down - and, yes, I expect that folks have moved to that.
Are you assuming that whichever brand you are currently buying can't also start having the same manufacturing / QA problems? If it's a deterioration problem, what are you doing to spot it?
Are you regularly testing your already-burned media? (FWIW, I've tested a random sample of mine (about 10%) and so far, other than those two failed movie backups, have seen no other failures - so under 1% of the Beall media I've used.)

[NobbyNobbs]

I believe this discussion belongs in the general discussion forum, or DVD Burning forum, it do not have much to do with RB.:D

[archaeo]

I believe this discussion belongs in the general discussion forum, or DVD Burning forum, it do not have much to do with RB.

second that

[ron spencer]

as I said I never wanted to be rude...but when I first got into DVD I saw the price of blanks and went "wow" I better get my money's worth..so I spent hours looking at various forums (cdfreaks, cdrlabs, videohelp, and on and on and on). I saw (and still see) that most users very rarely have trouble with the brands I mentioned; Maxell, Verbatim, or TY. As far as Ritek is concerned I see tons of posts with poor burns as such. I just never wanted to be one of those posting about poor burns, etc. so I stayed with the media that was peer-reviewed the best. After all peer-review (i.e. people posting their grips and complains) seems to work best.

In the end you get what you pay for.........if I ever burn a coaster I will let you know....but I doubt it will ever be because of the media :cool:


Never burned a CD coaster either now that I think if it.

[bobkoure]

Originally posted by ron spencer ...as I said I never wanted to be rude...And I never said you were being rude - just missing that whats considered good and what's considered bad changes quickly in the technology arena.
Those forums you mention all had good things to say about Beall - a year ago.
We may end up having the same (or other) problem with Verbatim (CMC) media. How will you feel when someone says "I don't mean to be rude, but who would waste their money on that junk? c'mon! Everybody knows it's bad."
As far as the other brands you mention - I've had bad disks (or at least bad burns) from both of them. The 8x TYs have not been particularly wonderful (4xs have been good, though). I have not seen any (of all three brands) deteriorate after being fine (pass initial verification on second DVD drive) - at least not yet.

Oh - and yes I agree that this belongs in a more general forum - how do we move it? Or do we just shut up here and start posting there?
Meanwhile, maybe the folks who don't want to read my blatherings might, well... not read them. I'm not sure I have anything interesting to say anyway :)

[outsideAG]

Originally posted by ron spencer
I agree...which is why I listed the 3 brands above....no matter what forum you search these brands (verbatim, ty, and Maxell) ALL burn without people complaining...

I'm sorry, but I really don't agree with this advice.

Verbatim and Maxell don't manufacture their own media, the re-brand other media.

If you look on VCDHelp, both Verbatim and Maxell use/have used Ritek and Taiyo Yuden media. From what I have heard other people say, Taiyo is better than Ritek, but I really don't think that you will gain anything by buying media that has the brand name of a big consumer electronics company slapped on it.