CCE SP 2.7 vs. 2.67

[kolak]

HI

Does CCE SP 2.7 realy offer better quality then 2.67 version?

[DeepDVD]

I wait for a comparison as well...

If you look at the changelog you'll see some changes which some people were waiting for. (e.g. better fade on static scenes)

It would be very interesting, if someone would test the speed, quality etc. in a comparison because this version is the first since a long time with such huge changes i think.

[kolak]

I made some comparation but that was blind test. And in my opinion quality is better and speed to. There wasn't as many distortion on edges as in 2.67 version. That was the main problem in previous version of CCE. I didn't make comparasion frame to frame.
From other hand comparation by one frame dosen't give always true result.

[archaeo]

Here's the Change log for CCE 2.70.01.05:


- Changes of GUI
- Automatic resolution conversion function on DVD/SVCD/VCD mode
- Automatic file size calculation
- 3:2 pulldown
- Automatic adding of encoding pass for more accurate inverse 3:2 pulldown
- De-interlacing function
- 4:1:1 -> 4:2:2 interpolation
- Allow adaptive quantization matrices switching for multi-pass VBR
- Provide an option of outputting bottom field first stream
- Y and C parameters for dithered quantization
- Automatic switching of block scan order
- Blanking function
- Quality improvement in fades on a static scene
- Adjustment for black frames
- Monochrome encoding mode
- Save/load template to/from file
- Reuse of the last modified parameter setting
- Save/load a chapter list
- Shut down the system when finished encoding
- Play sound when finished encoding

[kolak]

And others like:

Adaptive Q-matrix switching - in my opinion very intresting option

[Arky]

Originally posted by kolak
And others like:

Adaptive Q-matrix switching - in my opinion very intresting option

Yes, this has been derived from CCE-Pro, now that Xtream (http://www.cinemacraft.com/eng/i2005011401.html) (and here (http://www.cinemacraft.com/eng/xtream.html), and here (http://www.omnidvdmedia.com/products_cinemacraftxtream.shtml)), is on the cards for the high-end users.


Arky ;o)

[kolak]

What is this Xtream? There isn't any info about this in English version on Cinemacraft page. Can you translate Japanese info about Xtream version?

[Arky]

Xtream is an ultra-high-end turnkey encoding system - it costs tens of thousands of dollars (I've updated the links in my previous post, since the English details were officially released today).

Whereas CCE Pro (the previous top of the range Cinemacraft turnkey encoding solution) was based upon essentially the same software encoding engine as CCE SP, CCE Xtream utilises an entirely new and improved encoding engine. However, the encoding engine used by CCE Pro and CCE SP remains one of the best in the world.


Arky ;o)

[drob]

Maybe a nobs question, but isn’t someone whose spending such huge amounts of money for MPEG2 encode use a dedicated "black box" solution, rather then a dedicated pc with a very expensive peace of software?

[Arky]

Maybe in the old days, but PCs are extremely powerful number crunchers, these days. A 'black box' doesn't necessarily make an encoder any better than a highly-advanced piece of software using high quality input boards etc, and a PC for horsepower.

BTW... you might like to know that CCE Pro (not sure about Xtream yet - no pics released!) DOES come in a 'black box' (http://www.omnidvdmedia.com/products_cinemacraftpro.shtml)! :D


Arky ;o)

[drob]

Yeh that’s what my grandma would call a smartass, right before she would go looking for a blowtorch and a nice friendly pair of pliers lol

[kolak]

Originally posted by Arky
Xtream is an ultra-high-end turnkey encoding system - it costs tens of thousands of dollars (I've updated the links in my previous post, since the English details were officially released today).

Whereas CCE Pro (the previous top of the range Cinemacraft turnkey encoding solution) was based upon essentially the same software encoding engine as CCE SP, CCE Xtream utilises an entirely new and improved encoding engine. However, the encoding engine used by CCE Pro and CCE SP remains one of the best in the world.


Arky ;o)

Thanks a lot!!!!

[kolak]

I have another question.
What is better: Sonic 2000 SD Encoder Series or Cinemacraft Extreem ?
Both systems allow you to use segment encoding, but I have information that Sonic 2000 SD Encoder has bug in software part of this option. Currently this option is unuseles.
I'll probably work on Sonic 2000 SD Encoder in nearly future but I'm thinking about others solutions. Which system is the best when the price is up to 60.000$

[Arky]

There was a discussion about this on the professional 'DVD List' not so long ago, and although the SD2000 is a well-respected encoder, used by many production houses, the general consensus was that CCE Pro is significantly superior. I don't know the pricing of CCE Xtream (it's gonna be very expensive, I don't doubt), but CCE Pro is (or at least was, until the introduction of Xtream - we'll have to see if this influences CCE Pro's price at all...) almost $50k on the button.

If you need more information, directly from the horse's mouth, so-to-speak, then, unquestionably, the number one man to talk to is R.W., contactable at this address (http://www.omnidvdmedia.com/contactus.shtml) (he's the North American main dealer for Cinemacraft), and he's a nice and very knowledgeable guy.

Hope this helps.


Arky ;o)

[kolak]

All Your posts are very helpfull.
Thanks one more time Arky

[Arky]

Don't forget that CCE SP allows you to do something approximating to segment-based re-encoding, in so much as it allows you to tweak the bitrate, after the primary pass, on a GOP-by-GOP basis, and then re-run the entire encode. I appreciate that this is a little inconvenient, but it's a workable solution for less than $2k and the image quality is superb - remember that the encoding engine is almost identical to that used in CCE Pro (particularly now that AQM has been passed down to SP), albeit in a 'hardware-free', 'offline' configuration, in the case of CCE SP.

Oh, and here's a screenshot (http://www.omnidvdmedia.com/images/cinemacraftxtream_screenshot_lg.gif) of Xtream's interface, in case any of you missed the link!


Regards,

John.

[kolak]

I know about VBR Bitrate Allocation and it's very ussles option. But how You wrote this's only aproximation of segment-base re-encoding because I have to encode all material again. I didn't see this screenshot yet.
One more thing: how this almost is almost? Could You write some details about difference beetwen CCE-SP and CCE-PRO?
Thanks in adventure.

[Boulder]

Originally posted by Arky
(particularly now that AQM has been passed down to SP
Arky,

since you seem to know pretty much about CCE, is AQM useful in any other situation than the one where minimum bitrate is kept by changing the matrix? That is, it's really not useful when your minimum is something like 150-300kbps?

[Arky]

Originally posted by kolak
I know about VBR Bitrate Allocation and it's very ussles option. But how You wrote this's only aproximation of segment-base re-encoding because I have to encode all material again. I didn't see this screenshot yet.
One more thing: how this almost is almost? Could You write some details about difference beetwen CCE-SP and CCE-PRO?
Thanks in adventure.


Sorry, I was not very clear with what I meant. I did not mean to say that you can perform a segment-based re-encode with CCE SP in the sense that you can just re-encode the desired segment - of course, that would require true segment-based re-encoding. What I actually meant is that you can, at least, alter the SETTINGS specifically for only a small segment, rather than having to alter the global settings for the entire video stream. In this way, although you do have to waste time running an entire pass again, you can at least alter the settings on a segmental level, so the end result is that you get your desired segment re-encoded differently, while the rest of the stream is encoded virtually identically to how it was in the first pass. That's why I said it was only an approximation of segment-based re-encoding, and a poor man's approximation at that. Sorry for any confusion.


John.

[kolak]

I claerly undenrstud You ("Don't forget that CCE SP allows you to do something approximating to segment-based re-encoding...") and I know what you talking about so there wasn't any confusion.
Could you give me answer for this: details for difference beetwen CCE-SP and CCE-PRO?
Thanks in adventure.

[Arky]

Originally posted by Boulder
Arky,

since you seem to know pretty much about CCE, is AQM useful in any other situation than the one where minimum bitrate is kept by changing the matrix? That is, it's really not useful when your minimum is something like 150-300kbps?


My understanding of CCE's AQM implementation is currently limited to what is described by the manual (so much to learn, so little lifetime! ;) ):


"...adaptive Q-matrix switching can improve the quality of image,
especially with lower bitrate sources or CG works or the edge of
fading out."

Presumably, in the case of fades, the necessity to describe every single pixel in each frame (because they are ALL getting lighter or darker in each successive frame), means that, owing to the lack of data redundancy, and consequent 'inadequacy' of bitrate resources to accommodate this situation, any strategy which can aid in more efficient allocation of bitrate will improve quality. I'm not sure how AQM assists in the encoding of CG material.


Kind regards,

Arky ;o)

[kolak]

BTW...Arky did You see this: http://images.industryclick.com/files/127/404VSsfeature.pdf

[Arky]

Originally posted by kolak
Could you give me answer for this: details for difference beetwen CCE-SP and CCE-PRO?
Thanks in adventure.


I do not have hands-on experience of CCE Pro (way out of my price league!), but I am given to understand, from conversations on the DVD List, that it uses essentially the same (but not identical) software encoding engine, in synergy with a Proprietary SDI-input Capture board and an Optibase Decoder board. I am sure you are well aware if the benefits of SDI capture in comparison to firewire or analogue capture (and there's an interesting discussion about Sony SDI decks, developing on The List right now, incidentally). Clearly, standard SDI boards do not cost $45k, though, so there are additional reasons for the difference in price between SP and Pro, but I do not know the precise details of these differences.

Cinemacraft hold their cards very close to their chest, so-to-speak, so unless you directly approach a dealer with a view to purchasing, the information they are willing to provide seems somewhat limited. However, you appear to be serious about this, so, as I said above, I suggest you contact R.W. at the above address and ask him. He is the best-qualified person I know of, and is very well-respected in the industry. He will tell you anything and everything you need to know about the CCE Pro system, since he demonstrates it regularly. If you haven't already done so, you might also like to consider subscribing to the DVD List (I've PM'd you the details, just in case). It's subscribed to by professional DVD authors from all over the world, some of whom use CCE Pro on a daily basis. R.W. also contributes there.

Lastly, don't forget that HD DVD is on the horizon. Admittedly, it's not finalised yet, but it will undoubtedly begin to gain market penetration over the next couple of years, and this will inevitably have a direct influence on MPEG encoding solutions. CCE Pro is currently SD only, and although there is plenty of life in SD for a significant number of years to come, you should keep the influence of HD in mind when calculating your cost-benefit analysis for potentially purchasing a $50k SD encoding solution, unless you produce so many Titles per annum that the cost is negligible or rapidly recouped.


Regards,

John.

[Arky]

Originally posted by kolak
BTW...Arky did You see this: http://images.industryclick.com/files/127/404VSsfeature.pdf

Yes, that was an interesting article (and personally, CCE SP is my favourite encoder, anyway :) ), but some people have criticised it for not including the Main Concept encoders, and for not including ProCoder version 2 (although, interestingly, some ProCoder users claim version 1.5 produces superior MPEG 2 streams to those produced by version 2...).


Cheers.

John.

[kolak]

I mede some comparation and I can say that MainConcept v1.42 is far far for CCE-SP 2.67. It's cheep and fast solution but we shouldn't compare it to CCE-SP. ProCoder2 is in my opinion even better then CCE-SP 2.67 ( but few times slower).

[Arky]

Would I be correct in guessing that you are encoding DV source footage?

[kolak]

YES

And I know that there is some problem with encoding DV source in CCE
Any solution for taht?

[Arky]

What problem have you experienced encoding DV footage with CCE?

There used to be an issue with field order, but this is no longer the case.

When I guessed you had been encoding DV, I guessed so because ProCoder is good with noisy source footage (which DV often is). However, CCE SP now has improved NR, although I haven't put this through it's paces thoroughly, as yet. I like ProCoder very much but have noticed that it can sometimes have a visible 'smoothing' effect on some footage.


John.

[Matthew]

Originally posted by Arky
I like ProCoder very much but have noticed that it can sometimes have a visible 'smoothing' effect on some footage.

I used it a while back to back up a DVD which was rather noisy. The results were "better" than CCE, but once the anti-noise filter was turned on in cinemacraft the difference dissipated somewhat.

So one is perhaps comparing apples and oranges with CCE vs Procoder, unless some sort of antinoise is used as part of the CCE encode.

[kolak]

Generally with quality with DV as source.
I have to agree with you one more time. ProCoder sometimes have a visible 'smoothing' effect on some footage and it's very slow. This comparation is similar as DIVX to XVID. Divx smooth footage to ( for me too much).
At this moment I've just reencoded movie trialer (from http://www.divx.com/hd/ ) in 720p Divx Hd format (4Mbit bitrate).I used trial CCE-SP 2.70.01.05 and I got very good quality footage. New CCE engine is better then old one.

[dealsaddict]

oh hnn i wanna say thanks for updating us on CCE 2.70 and cce xstream. I was just wondering about procoder2. is there any screenshots out there that gives comparison on the quality it produces? thanks

[kolak]

I don't know, but in my opinion comparation frame to frame dosen't always give true result. For me CCE is (and probably will be) the best software Mpeg-2 encoder.

[Arky]

Originally posted by dealsaddict
...I was just wondering about procoder2. is there any screenshots out there that gives comparison on the quality it produces? thanks


Well, there was this (http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=235665&highlight=comparison), posted a while back on VideoHelp, but it's not an exhaustive test, and kolak made a good point about such tests.


Arky ;o)

[kolak]

Originally posted by dealsaddict
... I was just wondering about procoder2. is there any screenshots out there that gives comparison on the quality it produces? thanks
How I said this tests dosen't give always true results. I use blind test. I watch encoded clips on Powerdvd6 and I use 4 (or 9) zoom.

[TheSeeker]

Is AQM automatically used or does it need to be enabled or something. Im using 2.70 along with DVD-RB and just wondering how I would make sure that this is getting used?

[Boulder]

It's enabled by default. You can disable it manually.

[kolak]

I found some "strange" fact in CCE 2.70 version. When it dooing first pass the speed is normal (or slow in comparation to 2.67) but after that (in next passes) is very fast. Some times it shows 7 at the begining and speed is often changing (in 2.67 after some time speed was rather constant). I don't know what does it means but average speed is higher then in 2.67 version.

[TheSeeker]

Yea I noticed the same thing. The speed starts out really high on the 2 and 3rd passes and continually drops after that. I do think its a little faster than 2.67 but not all that much. Though I have an AMD64 capable of SSE2 so that may be why I see some really nice speeds with it. Cause I know that CCE is optimized for SSE2.

[archaeo]

same here. The initial speeds during the pass are reading at extremely high rates (seems erroneous to me), then slowing down to more typical speeds. Overall, speed's not much different CCE Basic (2.69) on my system. Of course I'm only running dual P3's (1 Ghz).

[kolak]

I'm only running dual P3's (1 Ghz).

What speed do you have on your dual P3's (1 Ghz)?
I have AMD XP 1500+ (Palomino core and 512MB DDR) and from dv source I have 0.9 realtime.

[archaeo]

What speed do you have on your dual P3's (1 Ghz)?

I'm getting about 1.35 - 1.40 on average
But initially, with 2.70, I get these outrageous speeds (50.0+) that drop quickly to the above mentioned speeds. It just doesnt add up.

[Boulder]

You get a realistic speed when you first run the "1st pass of VBR", then run a multipass VBR without creating a new vaf file.

[archaeo]

@Boulder

so you have seen this behaviour with only v2.70?
I haven't noticed it on other versions.

[Boulder]

Yes, it's just a cosmetic bug and only in 2.70.

[BlkPnthr]

Originally posted by kolak
I made some comparation but that was blind test. And in my opinion quality is better and speed to. There wasn't as many distortion on edges as in 2.67 version. That was the main problem in previous version of CCE. I didn't make comparasion frame to frame.
From other hand comparation by one frame dosen't give always true result.

In your DVDRb setup (presuming that is what you used), how did you have you settings? I'm using DVD-EB 0.75 (VIP) and have it set for CCE SP Trial and under the "Settings" have it set to point directly to the *.exe (due to ecl no longer required/support). My DVD encodes however, when I view the final product, the screen is "pinkish", grainy and totally un-watchable. Anyone else with this problem? Anyone able to shed some light on this? I have tried CCE v2.70.01.03 and 2.70.01.05 with no avail.

Help request.

Cheers

8)

[kolak]

When You use CCE TRIAL version without any patches or craks you'll have good result, without any "pinkish".
Other sugestion: buy CCE!!!

[DeepDVD]

CCE 2.70.02.00 is out...

[kolak]

Yes, and we can find this info in chanelog :
"Updated encoder engine to 2.70 rev.8"
Unfortunetly I don't know what does it mean- serious change or cosmetic?
Any information about that? (Arky maybe You:))

[archaeo]

"Updated encoder engine to 2.70 rev.8"

I sent a note to tech support at Cinema Craft regarding this change. Their response:

It's a bug fix version.

The problem was DC coefficients' value going beyond MPEG2/Video
(ISO/IEC 13818-2) standard at some situation.

Such situation occurs when there is quite low distortion and
high in contrast of luminance or chrominance.

So it appears to be only a minor change to the encoder engine.

[BlkPnthr]

I am not sure exactly what changed for me at my end but, I used DVD-RB's (Rockas's) v0.72 Installer and all my ver's of CCE work famously with outstanding results. Nothing more to add from my end. Thanks for all your help and suggestions.

Cheers

8)