Menus sometimes don't work on backup DVD's

[Internaut]

I routinely make backups of the more frequently used DVD's in my collection. I use a pretty standard procedure ie DVD Decrypter v3.5.1.0, DVD Shrink v3.2.0.15 (only required if original is a DVD-9 disk), followed by Nero or DiscJuggler to burn. I also have DVD Region+CSS Free v5.12 installed, so DVD Decrypter sees a region-free disk from the start.

I use a Pioneer DVD-105 DVD drive to read the original disk, and a Plextor PX-708 DVD Writer to burn. Both are connected to a Promise Ultra 133 PCI IDE controller card, as I wish to keep both Motherboard IDE ports for four hard drives used for video editing.

I use a Pioneer DV535 DVD Player for normal domestic viewing. However, in about one in four cases, the menus, often the first one, stick when attempting to play the backup copy, after which the player will not advance any further. I have also had the experience that the menu may appear, but the text buttons are not visible (in which case it is still possible to use the invisible buttons, if you can remember where and what they were to select them !).

I have done some experimenting to try to isolate the problem, with the following results :-

1) WinDVD plays The decrypted file set fine on the PC.
2) If DVDShrink was required to compress to DVD-5, WinDVD plays the shrunk file set fine on the PC.
3) The affected backup copy plays fine on the PC, but not on the Pioneer.
4) The problem seems to be unaffected by media - I am using Verbatim DVD+R, DVD+RW, DVD-R, DVD-RW and ePerformance DVD+R, and if the problem arises, it can occur on any of these.
5) The original DVD plays fine on the Pioneer DV535, and, of course, on the PC using WinDVD.

Result 2) above rules out DVDShrink as the culprit, and 4) reduces the likelihood of there being a media problem.

Is there perhaps something I don't know about DVD Region+CSS Free, DVD Decrypter, or my Pioneer DV 535 ? Would a reverse engineering tool, such as DVDReMake Pro, be useful in spotting any potential problems in the disk file set prior to buring the backup copy ?

I re-iterate that 3 out of 4 backups work 100%, so I am a bit baffled.

I should also mention that I prefer not to use so-called "one-click" copy solutions such a DVDXCopy, as these give you very lttle control of the overall backup process. The method I am using is really down-to-earth nut-and-bolts stuff, which works very well most of the time.

Suggestions please !

[mrbass]

Only thing I faintly remember is removing subtitles in dvdshrink menu could cause problems. But I believe dvdshrink removed the ability to even remove subtitles in menus thus elminating that possibility. I'm a re-author kinda person and probably always will be.

[blutach]

Another user, mickran, is also having problems with his Pioneer player when using DVD Shrink.

Check out this thread. It may help you a bit.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86568

Regards

[Internaut]

Thanks for the responses so far guys !

Blutach,

I have read the other thread with interest, and there seems to be evidence that my Pioneer DV535 player may be the culprit.

Since my original post, I tried playing the problem backup disk on another player, and it worked fine, no problems ! It's even more interesting to note that this second player is not a very good quality player, being part of an el-cheapo bedside TV/DVD "combo" unit. Unlike the Pioneer, which plays just about any type of R or R/W media around (which is why I like my Pioneer player so much), this second player is very fussy about media, but does not seem to have this specific menu problem which the Pioneer has.

I need to investigate further, and read up on the DVD menu command language; DVDReMake, which displays the commands used on a DVD, is also a help in this regard.

I am still a little puzzled, though, why I should sometimes get the problem even when DVDShrink has NOT been used. Somewhere in the backup processing chain ie DVDRegionFree -> DVD Decrypter -> Nero, something is getting changed or affected to which only the Pioneer is sensitive. This kind of suggests media, but as mentioned in my original post, this problem seems invariant with media.

I'll investigate further !

[blutach]

@internaut

I think you and mick can join the "I Hate Pioneer DV Players As Far As Backups Are Concerned" club.

It might be that they are just sensitive to media that is +R or -R. Do you have a drive that can set the booktype to DVD-ROM? I suspect that might solve the problems.

However, both you and mick have convinced me not to ever buy a Pioner DV player (although I am contemplating buying an A-108 drive).

As far as buying DVD RMP is concerned, I would be VERY doubtful if your IFOs and or menu buttons have been at all corrupted. But, its up to you. My editors of choice are PgcEdit (donationware), IfoEdit (free), and the forerunner to DVDRMP, Menuedit (costs). PgcEdit is coming out with a menu editor soon anyway, so you may be able to use just it and IfoEdit to do what you want.

HNY and good luck

[m1ckran]

Thanks for the nudge, blutach, and a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year to you and all. I've been a little out of it recently but I've not forgotten that job you requested.

Greetings internaut.

First of all, I'd like to say that I would not subscribe to an anti-Pioneer campaign. I love my Pioneer DVD-565 for various reasons, even with its little idiosyncracies. Pioneers have personality!

I've read your post several times to make sure I understand the problem. It is not quite the same as my thread because you are backing-up the entire DVD whereas I prefer a movie-only backup. At one time, I used to make full-disc backups of some DVD's because it was the only way I could get forced subtitles to display. Then I discovered the solution so I now exclusively do movie-only.

The strange thing is that, even with the exceptionally high compression needed for a full DVD-9 backup to DVD-5, I have not had the problems you're experiencing. I did have one disc that skipped and eventially froze but that was due to me using an old version of DvdShrink at high compression. I've never had any problems with the current version.

I don't know why you are having your problem but I do know how frustrated you must be feeling so I offer my thoughts for consideration.

I think it's safe to assume that DvdShrink is not at fault because your discs work on other players and DVD drives.
I doubt whether DVD quality is a problem. Pioneers seem to be able to play anything, including hybrid ISO-Joliet non-booktype formats that other players don't even recognise as a disc.
I think it's unlikely that hacking the menus will have any effect because you already have an exact copy (although compressed) of the original working menu.
The more we change the original, the more likely we are to cause problems.

It would probably be more productive to look at your current backup methods with a view to simplifying them because simpler means "less can go wrong", and problem areas can be more easily isolated.

Like you, I use DvdDecrypter to rip the DVD to disk. I use file mode. I then use DvdShrink to process the files. I always use DvdShrink even when no compression is required because it's so reliable and it produces an ISO file. I use DvdDecrypter to burn the ISO file to DVD.

In keeping with my philosophy of changing the original as little as possible, I also retain the Region Code of the original. I'm not certain but I think some DVD's might check their region code so, whether they do or not, keeping the original code does no harm and is potentially a good thing.

It might be worth trying the above streamlined method on a problem disc, just to see if it makes a difference. Use an RW!

Another thing you might want to consider is, erm, your Plextor 708 drive. I'm a bit reluctant to suggest that it might be a possible cause of your problem because I know how highly regarded it is. I don't particularly want a flood of criticism from aggrieved Plextor owners (I've got enough hassle with blutach and his Ashes), but it could just be the weakest link in your system.

Before you click the Reply button to chastise me for such heresey, let me say that I own a Plextor 708. I think it's a good (but bloody expensive) drive. It's also very fast. Too fast in some cases, I think. I found that, when set to MAX, it can burn a DVD faster than the DVD's speed rating. I also found that some DVD's do not like it. It could be that you have a borderline problem where most discs burn satisfactorily but others do not. Perhaps some discs do not like over-spec burn speeds where others in the same box might be ok. Or perhaps it could be down to complex data being written insufficiently securely for some players to handle. I don't know. You might think that there can't be a problem here because other players can read the discs, but I think it is worth slowing the drive down as an experiment.

I always use slow burn speeds, toward the lower end of the DVD's specification. I don't mind waiting a few extra minutes in exchange for the peace of mind I get through knowing I will get a good burn.

Have you checked for firmware upgrades on Plextor's website?

I hope I've given you some ideas and even helped save you some time. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

[blutach]

@Mick

The region code checking is a player thing against SPRM 20. If SPRM 20 = 0 then the disk is open for all regions.

As well, many players can accept all regions now anyway - particularly, high end ones, which often have key sequences to bypass region coding.

As far as burning speeds are concerned, there is a large body of thought that says don't go over 4X (although I routinely burn successfully at 8X on my Riteks with my LG4081B). However, I will never burn over the disk's rated speed.

The firmware upgrades are always good to check for. Often, outdated firmware will be the culprit in relation to rejected disks and bad burns.

Regards

[Internaut]

blutach, m1ckran,

Thanks for the pointers, and in the meantime I have been doing some further investigation as follows :-

1) I upgraded the firmware in my Plextor PX-708 from v1.03 to the current v1.08.
2) I found a utility called DVDInfo, which, amongst many other useful things, allows you to change the booktype used by the burner when burning +R or +R/W media. I changed this from the default DVD+R or DVD+R/W to DVD-ROM. Officially, I don't think that Plextor supports the external control of booktype for +R, +R/W for the PX-708, as they appear to be in the DVD-R, DVD-R/W stable, but DVDInfo does appear to control this and confirms after burning a DVD+R that its booktype is now DVD-ROM, and not DVD+R as before.
3) I took four different movies and made DVD+R backups and guess what ? The Pioneer DV-535 had menu problems with three of them, but all four worked perfectly on my second "el-cheapo" player !
4) I used both Nero v6.6.0.0 and DiskJuggler v4.1 Pro to eliminate any burner software issues.
5) I never burn faster than 2.4X, although the PX-708 is quite happy at 8X

My conclusions, therefore, are as follows :-
1) The PX-708 firmware version is not the issue
2) The booktype is not the issue, as even when set to DVD-ROM, the problem persists
3) The burning software is not the issue
4) I am not burning my backups too fast
5) As much as I like my Pioneer DV-535 player for its wide range of media support, it definately has a problem with backups. However, it never once, ever, has failed to play an original perfectly.

This therefore leads me back to the question :-

How are my backups different from the original, and why is the Pioneer player sensitive to this, and not my other player ?

I think I will be off to my local electronics dealer with an armful of DVD's to test on various different players. Any suggestions on particular models to go for, or avoid ?

[blutach]

First Internaut, congratulations to your mob for beating the pants offa the poms recently at The Wanderers. Mick, it is the shape of things to come for your lot this summer!!! :D :D :D

Internaut, you may need to try a mock strip (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84097) of your menu VOBs.

Also, can you open your project OK in PgcEdit?

What type of media are your using? DVDInfoPro will tell you exactly the manufacturer type. I use Riteks R03 and so far, haven't had a problem.

As for Nero, I tend to burn an image with DVD Decrypter. This (http://forum.digital-digest.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45025) is pertinent, as is this (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88033). After burning, a verify is useful. Also, check for CRC issues with DVDInfoPro or Nero CD-DVD Speed (http://www.cdspeed2000.com/).

BTW: If your drive physically can't set the bookmark type, IMHO, trying to set it through software will not work.

As for answering your original question, I would think a call to a Pioneer technician would be the go.

Regards

[m1ckran]

Sorry you're still having problems.

If your PC-drive and your cheapo player work correctly with menus it suggests that there can't be much wrong with the menus in the first place. Your subsequent work also supports this view. You seem to have looked at the technical stuff and done far more than should be necessary for a simple backup. Everything seems to suggest that the Pioneer is to blame but, having said that, you would expect better from such a leading brand.

I've also recently had a problem with my DV-565, in that it started to show blocky distortions then froze on some discs and even refused to lock onto others. All discs were DVD+RW's burned some time ago.

The problem turned out to be a dirty laser head and was cured by simply running a lens cleaner. I don't know if you might have a similar problem, but it does illustrate that not all solutions have to be hyper-technical.

So let's get non-technical.

I also have a problem with my Toshiba TV remote control, where weak battery contacts cause bad connections and occasional poor response. I suppose the batteries in your Pioneer remote are OK?

Have you checked your Pioneer's system settings, particularly the default language settings for subtitles and menus? I'm only guessing but, assuming your DVD's are in English, it's logical to expect erratic behaviour if the Pioneer is expecting a different language.

Although your original DVD's work properly, it's possible that backup software could "correct" the language settings on the backup, especially if you remove unwanted languages.

Subtitles are, I believe, often used for menu button text. The Pioneer might display a blank if it is looking for, say, Afrikaans but only finds English. I'm not sure of this and I stand to be corrected, but I think it's worth checking those system settings.

If nothing works, bring your player to England and we'll continue. It's amazing what you can sort out in The Fox or the Devonshire Arms. But bring some sun with you. We're tired of snow, gales, rain and floods.

PS:- See what I mean about blutach? :rolleyes:

[blutach]

Originally posted by m1ckran
I'm only guessing but, assuming your DVD's are in English, it's logical to expect erratic behaviour if the Pioneer is expecting a different language.No, if there is only 1 language on the burned disk, the player will default to it.
Originally posted by m1ckran
Subtitles are, I believe, often used for menu button text. The Pioneer might display a blank if it is looking for, say, Afrikaans but only finds English. I'm not sure of this and I stand to be corrected, but I think it's worth checking those system settings. If you have somehow removed the subtitles in the menu, there will be no buttons! - their info is contained in the subbie stream. Open a menu in VobEdit, go to a NAVPack, press button down the bottom and see the info there for them. AFAIK, the "highlight" layer of a menu is contained in this stream. See here. (http://www.dvd-replica.com/DVD/vtsmguide.php)

Now, blutach is off to the cricket to see the Aussies smash the windies in an ODI at the mighty MCG.

AFTERWORD: Another mighty win by the Aussies. Don't set your sight on those Ashes m1ck!!

[blutach]

@Internaut

In about one in four cases, the menus, often the first one, stick when attempting to play the backup copy, after which the player will not advance any further. I have also had the experience that the menu may appear, but the text buttons are not visible (in which case it is still possible to use the invisible buttons, if you can remember where and what they were to select them !).
I recently had both these problems (on successive projects!) and solved them.

Didn't work on one player etc. Worked when pressed menu. The best is this one (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88387), which is kinda like "the inverse" of one of the situations you faced.

The solution:
Replace the offending cell with the original one. If, for example, the "bad" menu was Vob/cell ID 1/1, use 1/1 from the original DVD's menu. Easiest way to do this is to use Menuedit's replace function - done in under a minute. Otherwise, you can demux (by cell ID) your transcoded menu and original menu into different folders and simply copy the VC ID from the "original" folder into the transcoded one. Then use VobEdit to rejoin cells.

Irrespective of which method you use, you must then do an IfoEdit mock strip of the menu.

Worked for me :)

Things to look for that might tell you there's something wrong:
If you open the menu VOB in VobEdit (easier still the demuxed troublesome VC ID's VOB), you might see some "unknown packs". This means there's been a problem in the transcode. The player will not view it.

In the future:
Lastly, try not to have DVD-Region Free running when you do your transcode. It has been known to screw things up occasionally.

Regards and good luck

[Internaut]

Guys,

Thanks for all these inputs - they are really appreciated !

I'll check them out and let you know my progress.

Regards,

Internaut