CCE Basic encoding possibility request

[techniquefreak]

As a returning reader of this forum I have come to think whether it might be possible to encode the main movie of a DVD using either CCE Basic or perhaps Canopus Procoder in cooperation with The Big Three...

My 'noobish' knowledge about these tools isn't extensive enough to answer this question for me, so I hope that someone with a greater insight in this would be so kind as to shed some light on this approach ;)

Hope this question hasn't been asked a million times before - if so I might have to rephrase ... :)
I'm aware it probably needs to be done on cell level a bit like DBD-RB but I've used The Big Three for a few backups now and I really like them a lot - hats off to those who invested so much time in making backing up DVDs the proper way possible for us 'half noobs'!

Anyway - back to my question - any ideas how it could be done or any thoughts on adding support for it to DIF4U, ScenAid, BCCE and Numenu4u ?

[Zeul]

For procoder it would have to be done by cell, to ensure correct placement of the scene structure. However, many menus and some bov titles are encoded as 4:3 pan-scan. This really should be replicated in the encoder, i don't know whether cce basic or procoder have this ability. You could encode as 16:9 in these cases , but any bov subs or menus will not show correctly on a 4:3 TV. Changing the script file would not be too dificult, just replace 4:3 pan with 16:9. At the moment you can't force NuMenu4u into a cellid demux to use procoder. But DIF4U you can of course. For procoder you would need to manually import each AVS (from cellid demux), put the settings from the ccedata.txt into procoder, ensure the output filename is .mpv (run pulldown if needed). This *should* enable scenaid to work its magic. Another approach is to run batchcce and manually stop each encode. This will create a bunch of ecl files, that i believe you can run eclpro with.

Hope that helps a little

[techniquefreak]

Thanks Zeul for your prompt response. I've attached a screenshot from my version of CCE Basic and as you can see it appears that you can indeed specify the templates to encode as 4:3 in this version as well:)

Edit: I didn't manage to get that screenshot attached - too bad will try later...

You state that Numenu4u can't be forced to do a cellid demux at the moment - will that be available in future builds? - I really hope so if that provides an ability to use CCE Basic which is really a good affordable version of CCE that can also save and load .ecl files and is subject to continuous updates from the Cinema Craft website...

Secondly you propose to use the option cellid demux in DoItFast4U which I've yet to try but how will I then go about using ScenAid to open BatchCCEWS and from then on encode in CCE Basic since neither ScenAid or BCCE supports CCE Basic yet (sulk! really hope you're reading this BBWoof, Eyes`Only and D3s7 so maybe you could include support for this as well in future buils;) )?

Will cellid demux make encoding in CCE Basic or Procoder possible?

I know this seems a lot to answer but I hope my questions are reasonable - I'm only trying to propose a way to use either CCE Basic or Canopus Procoder for those who prefers that in conjunction with the excellent Big Three.

Kind regards

[Zeul]

NB I have never tried a cellid demux, and i presume scenaid supports it, but I can't say for sure.

The information required for cce basic will be:

Aspect Ratio (16:9 or 4:3 pan-scan - for main movie this will nearly always be 16:9. Extras are often 4:3, and games, bov menus are often 4:3 pan-scan)
minimum bitrate = 0
max bitrate
ave bitrate
#of passes
and encode method - progressive, interlaced etc

open ccedata.txt and you will find each cell listed with the required bitrates eg cellname,0,3750,9352,1,4 . important info is ave = 3750; max = 9352
if they are all the same, then make a template for cce.
load each avs into cce, and set the bitrates (if no template), encode method (from filename I=interlaced, P=progressive) , field order etc etc
A similar approach to procoder.
Once complete, fire up scenaid, turn off batch options and create script as normal.

With regard to NuMenu4u I can add an option to force a cellid demux, but be warned this may occasionally result in too many tracks having to be created in scenarist.

This should give you somewhere to start

[D3s7]

for many reasons ccebasic has not been supported.. (if you do a search on ccebasic and eclcce you'll find many posts requesting/responding to the same question)

If I recall correctly, cce basic lacks the ability to do a multipass vbr encode and/or ability to specify all chapter points.. don't quote me on these but i believe it's something along those lines

ScenAid currently has no option for "encoder" as I call BatchCCEWS

[techniquefreak]

Thanks for your contribution Zeul, and to D3s7 it's good to see you participate in this discussion since you're another of the knowledgeable guys;)

I can confirm that cce basic can't insert specific I-frames. However it does provide 2-pass vbr (one vaf file creation and one pass creating the mpv). Hence the suggestion to encode from demuxed cells. Also there would be no need for eclcce as cce basic can read and write .ecl files not very different from those of the earlier cce sp versions 2.50 and 2.64. All that would have to change is to feed the .ecl's directly into cce basic instead of communicating them through eclcce which I guess wouldn't imply any major load of coding but then again I'm no programmer myself...:rolleyes:

I'm aware ScenAid doesn't decide on the encoder part when it launching BCCE so this is probably what I'm going at; possibility to make BCCE accept cce basic as an encoder option also firing cceb up directly instead of needing eclcce...

Finally, to Zeul: if you would support cellid demux I think it's worth trying and see how things go after all here's a great forum for support, right!

Thanks much for replies!

[influenza]

attachments need validation ;)

[Zeul]

hmm no pan-scan option

[techniquefreak]

Ahh I see Influenza, fair enough.

@Zeul what excactly does that Panscan option in cce sp signify:confused:
How does it differ from the 4:3 option in cce basic (scratch head)?

@D3s7 as a sidenote I read bbwoof asking in a recent thread here (the one announcing BCCEWS 0.9.1.5 started by Trahald, first page) about cce basic, quote:

"Is there any interest in having BatchCCE support CCE Basic?"

- so I guess bbwoof considered that to be an option he could relatively easily implement, but maybe we should just ask him that question again...

@bbwoof, are you reading this, I hope so;)

/Hansen

[Trahald]

pan and scan is a special mode - it sort of allows a 16:9 image to be zoomed into and scan to the area where the action is so that the same source can be viewed as 16:9 on wide screen and as fullscreen 4:3 (not letterbox) on a 4:3 tv.

bbwoof is taking an extended hiatus it seems. throwing basic support in isnt the problem.. bbwoof (i believe) wasnt accounting for the fact that basic doesnt support chapter setting. i have been coding my own batch encoder (when im not too lazy about it).. im working with tylo for a one-pass mode. also supports quenc (which does allow for chapter setting) .

[Matthew]

Automatic pan and scan is just a flag, restream can add the data too. Of course that means more cpu time and hd space required.

Don't know of any command-line app that will add the info though. So you might have to write one yourself.

[techniquefreak]

So basically a simple command line tool should be able to flag the .mpv as panscan... Hmmm too bad I'm not any good at programming - not even in cmd:(

@Trahald - would cceb's inability to create chapter points at the exact right spots be such an overwhelming problem here - what if DIF4U demuxes the streams cellwise and then a cce ecl. file with all the cells included were imported into cceb (by scenaid to open bcce which would then need to support cceb) - or what happens if we take the .mpv from cceb and try to apply the chapter settings in scenarist when importing that stream with (less) correct I-frames?
Anyway that's probably not going to work that's why I proposed the cell demux method ONLY for this possible approach.

@Zeul I agree then there is no panscan option in cceb but as Matthew stated it's probably a flag that needs change after the cceb encode. Another issue might be still frames I think, however still frames don't consume much space in a video so those could be imported untouched...

Can't wait to see your replies:)

[techniquefreak]

OK guys I guess since noone replied to this it's not going any further. Allright. I see that it might take too much reprogramming of the Big Three programs and I understand. Never mind - it was just a thought on how to possibly encode using software legally purchased such as cce basic or perhaps procoder if you're in that camp... 'cause cceb is reasonably priced and I don't really like to encode with a cinemacraft logo on top of my video which you do get with the trial versions of cce sp - right? thanks for contributing with your thoughts on this. cya.

Hansen

[D3s7]

well since we last talked, a new batchcce application is in the works which very well may include support for ccebasic / cce 2.5 and potentially support for procoder

An application to add pan/scan flags to assets that were encoded w/ the above has also been developed.

So your request may be farther along then you realize.. just might not see the light of day for a bit still

[techniquefreak]

That's a thrilling piece of information! So eventually a Big Three solution that supports cceb/ccesp 2.50 and maybe procoder might be in the works as we speak - that sounds good. I'll hold my breath until then (well, almost - cough!):)

Hansen

[Trahald]

Yeah.. i put something together that has opv 1-pass support (thanks to tylo) and multipass cce and quenc support.. will be out early next week.. ive been using it on and off for a while but using it for everything the last couple weeks...

procoder (through eclpro) and ccebasic support wont be in the first version (and the bug fixes that will certainly follow) but a few versions after..

quencs not the best at obeying max bitrate and scenarist is very picky.. but for the most part stuff ive done with it works fine if i lower the max bitrate (a choosable amount will be built in).. more soon

[influenza]

good news Trahald. Now I know where you've been hiding :)