A Solution for Reluctant Subtitles

[m1ckran]

Reluctant subtitles (my term) are those that show automatically on a full-disc backup (such as the Japanese translations on The Last Samurai, Kill Bill, and Johnny English) but, despite our best efforts, refuse to display on a movie-only backup unless selected from the DVD-player's remote control. Not a major catastrophe but bloody irritating!

The huge volume of queries on this subject, on this site and others, shows that this is a widespread problem. Various solutions are suggested by knowledgeable people who try to help (thank you, Knowledgeable People) and their solutions all fundamentally use a setstn command to select and show the required subtitle. And they work. But not always.

The problem is not the advice given, nor its implementation by the recipients. The culprit is the DVD-player itself! I have two DVD-players: a Denon and a Pioneer. After selecting forced subtitles in DVD-Shrink, the Denon shows them perfectly but the Pioneer only does so when they are switched on by the remote control. A friend's Pioneer player, a different model to mine, also exhibits this behaviour.

My hypothesis is that several manufactures use similar OEM chipsets to those used by Pioneer, resulting in something of a lottery when it comes to forced subtitles. If your current player behaves correctly, you might find that you have problems if you change it or buy an additional one for the bedroom.

So what's the answer? Well, full-disk backups always work (at least, in my limited experience) so as far as subtitles are concerned, we need to replicate the menu system's work on a move-only disc.

We need to create a dummy VOB that sets the subtitles and then calls the main feature. This is basically what a menu does, but we don't even need a video block; just code.

Sounds complicated? It can be as complicated as you like. Or it can be relatively easy. I'll describe what I consider to be an easy way (that can still be refined) but it works. You'll need DVD-Shrink.

Let's assume you've already used DVD-Decrypter in file mode to copy the DVD to disk. Run DVD-Shrink, open the folder containing the DVD files and select reauthor.

Go into "Main Movie" and double-click on Title 1. And again. Yes, we want two Title 1's. Now, on the left-hand pane, right-click on the first Title and select "Set Start/End Frames". Now we have a pop-up window.

In the pop-up, we should see the first and last cells of the film. The last one is usually blank, so let's assume it is now. Drag the slider on the Start Frame section as far right as it will go. We should now be at the very end of the fim but, sometimes the positioning can be out, so step back a little by clicking on the left-arrow icon. Now keep clicking on the right-arrow button until it goes grey. Then click the Ok button to close.

Select the Compression Settings tab on the right pane and click on the DVD icon on the left-hand pane. We want the topmost icon in the DVD Structure window. Now, deselect all unwanted audio and subtitle streams on the right. The forced subtitles we're looking for are usually quite small and near the bottom of the list, so if your DVD-player does not show the stream-number of the subtitle, just go for the smallest. Nearly finished.

We now need to force the subtitles, so right-click on Title 1 in the left-hand pane, and select Set Default Streams from the drop-down menu. Click on the radio button maked "Display the following subpicture stream:" and pick the subtitle you want from the drop-down box. Then click the Ok button. Do the same to the second title.

Done. Save your backup in any way you prefer. I use ISO writing with DVD-Decrypter, but that's just my preference. I recommend you use RW DVD's when testing procedures like this. I always do.

I hope I have provided sufficient information to help with the reluctant subtitle problem. Perhaps I should have produced a full Guide but I'm a little apprehensive about that because I've never posted anything before. Ever.

It's taken me about six months to work this out. In that time, I have read dozens of postings and used excellent freeware software. I just think that I owe an obligation to the people who, in helping others, have also helped me, and I hope I have made a worthwhile contribution.

[Sbofen]

I understand what your basically saying about your DVD player not selecting the forced subs until you manually choose it.

And I can also see marking the forced subs as default (instead of the player choosing them).

But why 2 Titles? You can't mark the forced sub as default with just 1?

[blutach]

Hi Mick and welcome to the forums with certainly the longest first post I've ever seen! But, I might add, very well put.

As to your methodology, I look forward to trying it. I would echo Sbofen's comments though re 2 titles. In any event, it won't be totally applicable becuse of the folks who like to keep the menus (myself included). As you know, in reauthor mode (which is what I believe you are using) DVD Shrink can't natively keep menus. I say natively, because I've just posted a guide (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86555) to put them back.

I do think the problem lies in the player not getting a "SETSTN Forced stream, On" command. I suspect that when Shrink takes the subbie, all it does is mux the relevant subpic stream in. I don't think, unless the pre-commands are there to begin with, the streams are necessarily turned on.

Whether some players turn them on and others don't may be a setup issue - just a thought.

In any event, it isn't all that difficult, where one knows forced streams are there, to replicate the command - it's just a single command after all and can be the last one encountered before the "Break".

Also, a trace in PgcEdit would show if your forced subbie stream was turned on and I recommend all users to do this prior to a burn. Just set a play breakpoint at the flick and examine your subpicture SPRM.

Anyways, welcome again.

Regards

[m1ckran]

sbofen & blutach

Thanks for your replies.

I prefer to strip everything except the main feature with one soundstream and English-only subtitles. This reduces compression, is quicker to produce and provides the best video and audio quality. If I want the menus and extras, I can always run my original DVD. Just my preference. I can see how a menu would be handy, if only to delay the start.

I'm not sure why two titles are needed; I only know that it works. When I was testing, I compiled a DVDRW of two identical five-minute scenes from The Last Samurai, with both scenes setting the subtitles. On the Pioneer, the first title did not display them but the second one did. Naturally, both worked perfectly on my Denon.

At first I thought that the Pioneer was only responding to commands at the end of the video block. I'm not certain, but I now suspect that the Pioneer will only respond to the setstn commands set in a previous block of code (as happens in a menu system). Both players are configured for English with subtitles turned off by default.

I've not yet read the article on menu restoration in DvdShrink, but I would expect reluctant subtitles to work, provided that the restored menu system calls setstn. Perhaps, between us, we have provided a solution to suit everyone. I hope so.

In addition to DvdShrink and DvdDecrypter, I've also played with IFOEdit, VobEdit, PgcEdit and DvdRemake. I've tried tracing the code on my PC but, being a simulation, I don't see how the trace can recreate the response of the Pioneer hardware. I think the fact that the Denon works properly is evidence that DvdShrink got the codes right in the first place.

Unfortunately, I'm still a novice but I hope that more knowledgeable people can expand on my findings.

Oh, sorry for the delay in replying. I've been asleep.

[Chetwood]

I haven't got any DVD with forced subtitles handy at the moment but I don't recall any problems when using DVD Shrink's function 'Set Default Streams' on any of my 3 standalones. I assume, you already tried that on one of those subtitles causing you problems? Cause this function does set the commands to make the player turn on that stream despite it's internal settings which should make it work on movie-only rips nonetheless.

[m1ckran]

Thanks Chetwood.

I know it seems illogical that a player should not respond immediately to commands, but it is true. Pioneers certainly misbehave in this respect and I would be interested to hear of any other makes that do the same.

I believe that it's precisely the illogical nature of the solution that has prevented people from experimenting with it before now.

Being a former network administrator and business programmer, I learned that if logic dictates that something cannot possibly happen it will probably happen illogically. Didn't Sherlock Holmes have a similar point of view?

I'm not contradicting you. If your players behave themselves, you have no comprehension of the frustration that can be generated when a DVD backup fails to run properly, even though everything is apparently correct.

Just keep an open mind and remember my posting if you buy a Pioneer which, incidentally, I can wholeheartedly recommend because I think they're fabulous value for money.

[blutach]

@mick

I'm just wondering about the quality of the media you are using. Some players tolerate lower quality media better than others. Surprisingly, my high end player is very finicky (especially with a title's post commands), even with good media, while my low-end early-model Sony seems to handle things with ease.

As an IT pro, I'm sure you'd be on to this though - given the very low media prices today, there's no excuse for not having good media.

Anyways, thanks for the info. Will try it out.

Regards

[m1ckran]

Hello again blutach

I don't think media is a problem. I use Maxell DVD-R and DVD+RW blanks bought from my local supermarket. According to DvdDecrypter, the DVD-R's are Ritek G04 and the DVD+RW's are Philips 041-00.

I know there seems to be a debate (heated sometimes) over DVD quality but I have only ever found one dodgey disc, and coasters have been my own fault. I find it strange that Maxell don't make their own discs. In pre-DVD days, I remember Maxell as a manufacturer of premium quality hi-fi cassette tape. Fortunes change I suppose.

I'm interested by your comments about the differences between high-end and low-end players. I have also noticed this, although I can't claim that my experience is exhaustive. I consider low-end players to be the types you can buy at supermarkets for around £30, whereas my Pioneer and Denon were £120 and £550. The Pioneer DV-565 plays just about anything I put in it. It would probably play a beermat if I tried it.

On the other hand, the Denon DVD-2900 is particularly fussy about what it recognises as a DVD. To be fair it's not advertised as a universal player and although I have had problems with it in the past, I no longer do. Incidentally, the one dodgey disc (mentioned above) only showd up on the Denon. The Pioneer plays it!

I used to write with DvdShrink through Nero with no problems on the Pioneer, but the Denon would not recognise the disc. Research showed that the Denon required a pure ISO Mode1 DVDROM book-type format whereas the Nero discs were Mode1-Joliet. Probably my fault.

Switching to DvdShrink through DvdDecrypter and writing the book-type format enabled my non-universal Denon to play my discs, including dual layer. It now even plays DVD+RW's even though the manual says it cannot.

I always use the lowest write speeds. Sometimes, for testing, I might write at 4X, but usually I use 2x or 2.4x. I find my Athlon800 can cope with this. I wouldn't be surprised if many people's problems are due to overstretching their equipment by attempting to write too quickly.

Using Mode1 book-type DVDROM, together with slow write speeds, my discs play on all machines I try them on.

But I think we have digressed from the point of the original post: Reluctant Subtitles. It's difficult for people to accept why my method works, particularly when they see no problem in the first place. I hope my original article reaches its intended audience. If only one person can benefit then I think the effort has been worthwhile.

[blutach]

MIck,

This is your thread, mate. You're allowed to digress OT :):):):)

But since (as the TV lawyer's would put it), you have opened the door on the subject matter, I haven't had too many problems with Nero. I use its DVD-Video mode (which is ISO 9660, mode 1) to burn. And yes, my high end player (which at A$2,000 translates into just a little more than your LS500) and which specifies that it only accepts DVD-ROM, so I'm lucky it plays anything at all!

Of course the Sony would take my DVD+R/RWs - Sony bloody collaborated in their invention!

I can vouch for the Riteks - at least at this installation. They're the only ones I use. I use the R03, 8x and burn successfully at that speed. The Phillips', I know nothing about.

PS While we're OT, you're gunna lose the Ashes again this coming summer :D:D:D:D:D

Regards

[m1ckran]

The Ashes?
Cricket's only a game.
England is the best team in the world - you must know that.
It's just that they're usually too polite to disappoint their opponents by beating them.
They can hammer anyone when they get a grump on. As you know.

[blutach]

@mick - Unfortunately, @48 yo, I am too young to have ever seen or heard of them hammering anyone. My memory's the thing. It lapses, you know. I can only remember as far back as 1989.

ROFLMAO

[m1ckran]

Ok. I was joking.
I've scanned the internet, without success, for a DVD of England hammering someone.
Apparently, film had yet to be invented at the time.

Question: Why is it that people can watch cricket for days on end, yet can't wait an extra ten minutes for a DVD to burn?

[blutach]

Originally posted by m1ckran
Question: Why is it that people can watch cricket for days on end, yet can't wait an extra ten minutes for a DVD to burn? Because watching a burner's little progress line creep up is boring!!!!

OTOH, watching mighty Glenn McGrath bowl the perfect outswinger or Warnie bowl pommie "batsmen" (and I do use that term in its VERY broadest sense) round their legs are sights of beauty indeed!!!! (is there a "bliss" emoticon ???? If so, insert it here)

Rgds always :):)

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by Douglas Adams in "Life, the Universe, and Everything"
"The game you know as cricket," he said, and his voice still seemed to be wandering lost in subterranean passages, "is just one of those curious freaks of racial memory which can keep images alive in the mind aeons after their true significance has been lost in the mists of time. Of all the races in the Galaxy, only the English could possibly revive the memory of the most horrific wars ever to sunder the Universe and transform it into what I'm afraid is generally regarded as an incomprehensibly dull and pointless game.

[m1ckran]

Chetwood obviously does not research his subject properly. Ford Prefect's addendum to The Guide would have corrected the misconception.
Of all the benefits of the British Empire, cricket is arguably the most significant. It does, however, require a level of finesse and understanding lacking in some nations.
Vogons, for example, do not play cricket.

[markrb]

I must try this method sometime as this is a problem for me and a few friends of mine with different players too.
To get around the Subtitle problem with Kill Bill (both) I used DVD2SVCD and encoded them right into the video stream so you can't shut them off.

In the case of Kill Bill I would have used DVD2SVCD in any case due to it's size. Most of the time Shrink works well for me, but I prefer CCE encoding over heavy Shrinking.

Cricket is a bug. American Football is a real game.

Mark

[m1ckran]

Thanks markrb. I was beginning to wonder if I was alone.

Your solution sounds interesting. I hadn't thought of that. But mine works for me and it has the advantage of being very quick and easy to do. Please try it and let us know how it goes.

I backup to movie-only so Kill Bill requires no compression. Other titles do, but I find DvdShrink is fine for me. Having said that, I don't like heavy compression. I find that sound quality often deteriorates before video quality. If I really like the title, I burn to DL now they're getting cheaper (but not cheap enough).

Talking about Kill Bill, you'll probably think I'm a nutter, but I would like to replace my UK PAL monochrome fight scene with the Japanese NTSC colour version. Just the one scene, because I don't want to lose the English subtitles. Looks like a tricky proposition though. But that's another story.

If you like American football, you must explore the finer points of rugby football. You can actually see the faces of the players because they don't wear armour! Not always an advantage though because after a few years of scrumming some players begin to resemble Orcs. I'm sure blutach will comment. England-Australia matches are usually pretty good.

Vogons, I suspect, do play American football.

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by m1ckran

I backup to movie-only so Kill Bill requires no compression. Other titles do, but I find DvdShrink is fine for me. Having said that, I don't like heavy compression. I find that sound quality often deteriorates before video quality.


Must be your imagination then cause DVD Shrink does not touch the sound streams at all.

Originally posted by m1ckran
Talking about Kill Bill, you'll probably think I'm a nutter, but I would like to replace my UK PAL monochrome fight scene with the Japanese NTSC colour version. Just the one scene, because I don't want to lose the English subtitles. Looks like a tricky proposition though. But that's another story.


Well, I guess the blood would make this scene more impressive. I'd personally like to verify whether this version explicitly shows the scene where she is biting of the guy's lip in the hospital cause our 'X-rated' version here in Germany does look kinda cut.

I hope to get my hands on some of your so-called reluctant subtitles (maybe this guide (http://www.dvdfile.com/site/faq/caption_guide/) can clarify the terminology) and check it out.

[m1ckran]

If you are certain, Chetwood, that DvdShrink does not compress audio streams then I bow to your superior knowledge. That means that, rather than being my imagination, the audio distortions I hear are also present on the original disc. I'll have to check it out because I've not spotted that before. It would certainly account for my impression that audio quality deteriorates before video quality when backing-up.

The problem with backups is that our senses can sometimes run wild and make a subjective assessment difficult. I have already noticed that, when watching a backup, I find myself looking for video and audio problems that may or may not be there. When watching an original, however, I tend to enjoy the film more because my senses more readily accept what they see.

I've only watched the Japanese Kill Bill 1 once but, from memory, it's much the same as the UK version except for the colour in the Blue Leaves. Sofie also loses her other arm in the boot of the car which is actually a nasty bit because there's no apparent need for it. Perhaps more relevant surrounding footage has been cut. The lip stretches but stays on. Apart from that, there are a few split-second snatches of fresh holes in people's bodies but that's all.

Apart from the Blue Leaves colour, I prefer the UK version. The UK sound is more punchy and vibrant whereas it seems a little dull on the Japanese version.

[m1ckran]

Err... sorry, I almost forget... Subtitles.

We don't use closed captions in the UK. That part of the TV signal used for closed captions in the US has, for over twenty years I think, been used for Teletext in the UK. Teletext provides a service like an old-fashioned Dos-based buletin board, covering a multitude of subjects like weather, sport, finance and TV schedules. Page 888 provides subtitles that overlay the TV picture if the broadcaster transmits them in a similare manner, I suspect, to US closed captions.

Ordinary subtitles are used on UK DVD's. Often there are two sets: Normal and Hard-of-Hearing. Normal subtitles just display dialogue in words. Hard-of-Hearing subtitles are intended for deaf or near-deaf people and include extra information like [thunder in the background] or [telephone rings]. Films like Kill Bill also have a third subtitle stream containing Japanese translations.

Perhaps my use of "reluctant subtitles" is misleading because they are not another form of subtitle. I only use the expression as short-hand for "forced subtitles that appear automatically on some players but not on others when playing movie-only backups". In the past I've called them other things, most of which I could not repeat here.

[blutach]

Originally posted by m1ckran
I'm sure blutach will comment. England-Australia matches are usually pretty good. Blutach lives in a southern state of Oz and believes rugby is odious. Now Aussie Rules Footy, Rules!!!

[m1ckran]

Does Australian Rules Football actually have rules?

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by m1ckran
If you are certain, Chetwood, that DvdShrink does not compress audio streams then I bow to your superior knowledge.

Well, you can verify this by demuxing the audio stream from the original disk and the compressed movie-only rip you did with DVD Shrink and compare their size. Apart from that it's been requested lots of time in the DVD Shrink forums (http://forum.digital-digest.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=47) and denied by DVD Shrink.

Now I've got my hands on the RC2 of Kill Bill and ripped a minute as movie-only with all audio/video streams setting the 7th subtitle (english translation of japanese sentences only) as the default one. This disk played flawlessly on 3 standalones of mine which encourages my believe that it's no flaw in DVD Shrink but rahter your standalone.

[m1ckran]

Thanks Chetwood.

RE audio - I believe you. Honest I do. I'm not sure if I would want compressed sound anyway and if Mr DvdShrink won't do it I assume he has a very good reason, so that's OK.

Perhaps my ears are more discerning than my eyes, and I can hear distortions in the original soundtrack. I've not compared the original with the backup yet.

I'm not criticising DvdShrink at all. I think it's a fabulous program and I've nothing but admiration for the author. I wish I had the ability to create something like that.

If you re-read my previous posts, I think you'll find that I'm actually pointing the finger at the Pioneer player. Even so, I don't think I'm qualified to say it's flawed; it just behaves differently and I think it's safe to assume that it might not be alone in this respect.

I placed my original post to share my findings with other people who might be experiencing the same problem, and with those who might have the problem in the future if they change their currently satisfactory player.

[blutach]

@mick

It must be your player. If you set your forced stream in reauthor mode of shrink, and examine the resulting IFO, you will see something a little bit different from the normal "Jump to Title 1".

There will be a command before that - a SETSTN, audio stream = 0 (or whatever audio stream you chose), subpic stream = 64 (or greater, depending on what subbie stream you picked - 64, corresponds to stream 0 being on, all the way up 96 being stream 32 (if it exists)). Typically, you would pick your "reluctant stream", which, in chetwood's example, is 7 (71 = 64+7).

Now, if your player doesn't recognise that command, it must be its fault. Or perhaps, the setup of the player - perhaps you would like to check that out, too.

EDIT: One caveat: Shrink can remap streams, eliminating subbies you decide not to take. So, you need to be sure it takes the correct stream in the IFO. However, it is usually pretty good at this.

Regards

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by blutach

Now, if your player doesn't recognise that command, it must be its fault. Or perhaps, the setup of the player - perhaps you would like to check that out, too.


I doubt that. Isn't it required for the player to do what is written in the info? So no matter what your setup looks like, e.g. you've set subtitles to German, if the ifo tells it to play the japanese stream it has to be played.


Originally posted by blutach
One caveat: Shrink can remap streams, eliminating subbies you decide not to take. So, you need to be sure it takes the correct stream in the IFO. However, it is usually pretty good at this.


Just don't confuse this with 'remapping of enabled streams' option which has no effect on re-authored DVDs.

[m1ckran]

Thanks again chetwood and blutach.

I find that DvdShrink handles default subtitle streams correctly, whether you delete unwanted subtitle streams or not. Checking the setstn codes with IfoEdit and DvdRemake shows that they are correct as produced by DvdShrink. As I implied before, as far as my Denon player is concerned, there is no such thing as reluctant subtitles.

The Pioneer certainly is the root of the problem. It does not ignore the setstn command completely, but it appears to ignore the setstn until it runs a second title. This means that commercial DVD's display forced subtitles properly because they all run a menu before the main feature, whereas movie-only backups do not display the forced subtitles because there is no previous title before the main feature. If the Pioneer ignored the command completely, we would never see forced subtitles at all which is not the case.

My method is compatible with both the Pioneer and the Denon; two players that are configured the same regarding audio, video and languages.

I can't comment on the IFO overriding the player's setting because I've not specifically tried that. It makes sense, though, because that is what happens when forced subtitles are shown on a player with subtitles switched off.

Believe me, there is a problem. Two players behave differently with the same DVD. My method is a valid work-around.

[blutach]

Mick,

Not criticising your method, but there's one thing you do need to be aware of (if you're not already).

If the SetSTN command is in the precommands of the PGC (or even the First Play PGC), if the player ain't broke, the command must be executed. It has nothing to do with whether a title gets played beforehand. It's just a very basic computer prog. Set a subbie stream, jump to a title, execute its precommands, play the title and - in a DVD Shrink reauthoring - exit.

As before, DVD Shrink does set this up properly. I wonder if you could experiment by putting the SetSTN in both the FP PGC and the Title's PGC. Redundant, I know, but so is your method :)

Also, the command is obviously getting executed by your other player, so it's there.

Also as suggested earlier, you might also like to try a trace with PgcEdit. Watch SPRM 2 - subpic number. It should be 64 or above.

Regards

[m1ckran]

I hadn't thought of putting the setstn command in the First Play codeblock, so I tried it.

I used DvdShrink in Reauthor mode to backup a few minutes of The Last Samurai with the Japanese translations as default. Looking at the resulting PGC pre-commands with IfoEdit, I noted that the setstn command parameter was C1, which is consistant with the second of two subtitle streams.

I then duplicated the setstn command in the First Play section, before the jump title command.

On running the DVD, the Pioneer behaved as expected: it stubbornly refused to display the subtitles. The Denon, however, did show them. A strange thing, the Denon appeared to switch on the subtitles before the main film began to run. That could have been due to a simple delay between locking onto the DVD and displaying the data onscreen.

I returned to my IFO files and removed the setstn command from the pre-command section, leaving it in the First Play section. On playing the resulting DVD, the subtitles still showed perfectly on the Denon.

From advice received, it appears that the Denon is behaving correctly and the Pioneer is being a little naughty in not sticking to the DVD rules. I know that my Pioneer is not the only one that misbehaves, so it's logical to assume there may be many more dotted about the world.

Speaking as an ex IT-man, I think it's dangerous to expect computers to behave correctly simply because of published standards or rules. In my experience, they have minds of their own and the little swines are always inventing new ways to disrupt the smooth-running of an IT department (or living-room). That's why I was so well paid. You need to develop lateral thinking to master them. That's why my method works. We know it shouldn't. It doesn't make sense. It can't make any difference. But it works.

:devil: = average computer, including DVD players
:sly: = good IT man
:) = Pioneer owners who try my method
:confused: = Australian cricketer

[blutach]

Mick baby,

You say it's a C1. While that is what it should be (assuming 2 streams - an English stream and a "translation stream"), just humour me for a minute and Shrink again, taking only the translation stream and before burning, change C0 to FF and burn again.

I don't doubt your player is at fault. But just try this, OK?

Finally, open your newspaper and see the wonderful effort by Oooh-Aaah Glenn McGrath yesterday (8/24). You might then wish to change your mind about Aussie cricketers. And remember the Ashes (that's all you can do after all). It's been an awful long time since you've held 'em and as George Double Ya's supporters so recenty merrily chanted, it will be "4 more years" (at least).

Rgds always :)

[m1ckran]

I think I tried that during my earlier experiments. Isn't FF supposed to force the first subtitle stream? I'll try it again. Just for you.

The Ashes.
What makes you think you've got the real ones? Are you sure it's not just a pile of fag-ash?

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by m1ckran
Believe me, there is a problem. Two players behave differently with the same DVD. My method is a valid work-around.

Granted, still I was suprised to read you saying this:

Originally posted by m1ckran
The huge volume of queries on this subject, on this site and others, shows that this is a widespread problem.

cause this was the first time I heard about this and I've been doing rips since 2001. I just wanted to point out that it's no problem of DVD Shrink.

Originally posted by m1ckran
Speaking as an ex IT-man, I think it's dangerous to expect computers to behave correctly simply because of published standards or rules. In my experience, they have minds of their own and the little swines are always inventing new ways to disrupt the smooth-running of an IT department (or living-room). That's why I was so well paid. You need to develop lateral thinking to master them. That's why my method works. We know it shouldn't. It doesn't make sense. It can't make any difference. But it works.


Speaking as an IT-man myself I don't concur with this statement. Computers are even more stupid than ppl, they simply do what they are told to do. So all problems you do have with computers either stem from ppl using it being stupid or ppl designing them being stupid or simply making mistakes in the process. The problem is lots of stuff is poorly designed or standards being implemented imperfectly. Add to that the complexity of some matters that are dealt with and you end up where we are now.

The only thing you can do to change this is to try to make it better yourself (in case you do design/pogram something) or kick ppl who designed the stuff you ('re forced to) use to get a grip on themselves and be more thorough in the process. Of course your efforts will be futile in most cases due to cost restrains or ppl's unwillingness to improve but at least you have tried.

E.g. I have asked a local producer of cheap DVD standalones to forward my requests (in form of a pdf written in english) to the Mediatek folks in Taiwan to reconsider their puny support of mp3 playback in their chips. As you may know they are programmed to stop playback once all songs of a folder are finished playing. So when you have a CD with 20 folders (which is one album each) the player does not play on when the first album is done playing as one would expect. NO, you got to navigate from that folder to root, select the next folder, enter it, and select 'play' on the first song, a task which cannot be done without the TV being on. When you ask how come ppl say: "well, it's a DVD player, mp3 is just a bonus" but then I always say: "if you do it, do it right, or just leave it."

I'm also wondering, what kind of designer came up with such a stupid playback method? Before releasing their chip to the public don't they let their little child have a go at the player just to see if it can be handled easily enough?

So what I did was buying another cheap DVD player with an ESS chipset that does as it should. I even have an additional digit on my players display that shows me what folder number I'm currently in so I can navigate between folders with my remote without having to turn on the TV. So your best bet is to boycott companies that release crap (like I do with Micros~1) and buy something else but don't blame the machine, it simply can't think.

[blutach]

Originally posted by m1ckran
Isn't FF supposed to force the first subtitle stream? 0xFF turns on the first stream as a forced stream

MXHNY

[m1ckran]

blutach
Sorry for the delay. I've not yet done that last test. A last-minute hospital re-arrangement meant that I was away for a couple of days.
I'll try it soon.

[m1ckran]

Chetwood

I'm not certain, but I get the impression that I might have upset you. If so, it was not intentional. I don't think I've been unfairly critical of anyone or anything. If you think I have, please let me know.

Regarding IT, obviously machines are not capable of rational thought (yet) but sometimes it feels like they are. We don't live in a perfect world and imperfect machines running imperfect applications on imperfect operating systems often produce undesireable and unpredictable results. You singled-out Microsoft but I would not exclude any company from criticism.

Time and cost constraints obviously have a major impact on all aspects of IT. I have built servers, installed hardware or network infrastructure, and even written software knowing that it will need revisiting again before long. This was usually due to time and cost constraints limiting the scope of the original work. A fact of life.

I consider IT to be a service industry and I think it is detrimental to the industry as a whole to assume that people using a system are naturally stupid. In my experience they are not. They just want a tool to help them to do their job. Why should a market development officer also become a computer expert?

I found that the self-taught "computer buff" consumed much of a system administrator's time because he could find backdoors and flaws in the system that other workers were not interested in. Certainly not stupid, though.

Not only do we have terrorists running around the world, but everyone seems to be growing increasingly less tolerant of their neighbours. The same applies in the workplace between different departments. Very sad.

In the UK, I believe we are still suffering from a backlash against the arrogance of many IT departments. January 2000 was a significant date only made so by bad IT practice. Since then, IT jobs and salaries have been cut. Far fewer students are taking IT degree courses because of poor prospects, and employers are now predicting an expected staffing crisis in a year or two.

Personally, I'm glad that computer system are imperfect. It's frightening to consider the manipulation we would have to endure if the billions of pounds spent by governments were to produce a computer system that actually works.

With respect, lighten up Chetwood. Even IT people are allowed to have a sense of humour. Merry Christmas.

[blutach]

Originally posted by m1ckran
Regarding IT, obviously machines are not capable of rational thought (yet) Hey Mick!

Haven't you seen The Matrix or I Robot??? Get with the times, mon.

[blutach]

Originally posted by m1ckran
Even IT people are allowed to have a sense of humour. No, they're not :D :D :D

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by m1ckran
Chetwood

I'm not certain, but I get the impression that I might have upset you. If so, it was not intentional. I don't think I've been unfairly critical of anyone or anything. If you think I have, please let me know.


Absolutely not, all I wanted to make clear is that DVD Shrink is not to blame. Since it's such a great tool I'm always willing to jump in to defend it. So no offense taken at all.

[m1ckran]

Chetwood

That's good.

I share your opinion of DvdShrink. I think it's a fabulous program and I would struggle without it. I know other people often criticise it, unfairly I think, but DvdShrink sets a fine example that commercial software companies would do well to emulate. I would really love to read the program's source-code. I sincerely hope that development has not ended.

I have to admit to being a little uncomfortable in using such superb software without recognising the author's efforts with some sort of donation. Perhaps I've missed something. How is it done?

[Chetwood]

Originally posted by m1ckran
Chetwood
I have to admit to being a little uncomfortable in using such superb software without recognising the author's efforts with some sort of donation. Perhaps I've missed something. How is it done?

You haven't, unlike me he does not accept donations ;) Don't ask me why but that's the way it is. I've already offered my help with an improvement of the current version but haven't gotten any reply yet. In case I'll do, I'll let you know.

[m1ckran]

Has anyone successfully tried this solution? It would be nice to know. Please let me know.

[blutach]

LOL mick. Don't have problem so no need for solution.

This post is to welcome you to 2005, the year the poms do not regain the Ashes, yet again!!!

:D

[m1ckran]

blutach

Tried your request for a single subpicture stream with setstn at FF. As I suspected, subtitles appeared on the Denon but not the Pioneer.

From your earlier messages, I recall that you're not keen on Rugby. Could this have anything to do with England beating Australia in the final?

I suppose you'll lose interest in cricket when England beat Oz.

How's Australia doing in the FIFA World Cup? Not much opposition around your neck of the world, is there?

Mick

[blutach]

What's FIFA and Rugby?

[m1ckran]

FIFA

Football for
Intelligent
Folk and
Australians

:D :D :D