lost color saturation after re-code CCE

[bonefish]

I have noticed that i have lost saturation in, infact all movies i have processed with CCE. Dont think this problem is DVD-RB related, but if there is anyone who have seen the same problem and found a solution, please let me know. I dont know if its ok to post images, but here is 2 anyways, the darker properly saturated image is from original disc, and the less saturated image is the from the result from CCE encoding. its not a big problem and only obvious if you compate the original with the backup.

I am using the follwing setup
dvd decrypter 3510
DVD-RB 0.67
CinemaCraft.Encoder.SP.v2.66.01.07
avisunth 2.5.4
MPEG2Dec3dg.dll

[bonefish]

Should add that the disc's i have used have all been NTSC.
Have tried CCE SP 2.5 with the same resulst also. Is there any filters, and if there is, how to use them to maintain the original color saturation.

[Rockas]

Maybe that's why some one said (refering colors):

NTSC (Never The Same Color)
PAL (Perfection At Last

:D :D :D

[pg55555]

I'm no sure, but I have read in some place CCE could present that kind of problem with interlaced sources. Newer versions should be better at it.

My experience with NTSC sources (in Argentina practically all are NTSC, although the TV standard is PAL, but ALL TV sets are NTSC/PAL) is that the most of the extras / menues / FBI warnings are interlaced, although the main movie is progressive. So it could be that your problem occur only in the extras but not in the main movie

[jdobbs]

You can adjust the color saturation with the AVISYNTH "Tweak()" function. I do this all the time with DV video feeds. See info here. (http://www.avisynth.org/Tweak)

[dannyv]

Originally posted by jdobbs
You can adjust the color saturation with the AVISYNTH "Tweak()" function. I do this all the time with DV video feeds. See info here. (http://www.avisynth.org/Tweak)

Intresting.

I sometimes have dv and dvd that I would like to add more color into. I've never got the hang of editing avi scrips. Would you clearfy for me. If I wanted to increase saturation I would enter into the avs filter editor:

Tweak(clip float sat=1.2)

to increase it a small amount?

[TheSeeker]

Originally posted by Rockas
Maybe that's why some one said (refering colors):

NTSC (Never The Same Color)
PAL (Perfection At Last

:D :D :D

I think this is pretty far from true considering all I have ever heard about PAL is people bitching about how poorly they are mastered, how they are incorrectly marked as telecine or need to be ivtc'd. I would say that PAL is far from perfect. But then so is NTSC.

[bonefish]

thanks jdobbs,

i have played around in photoshop from screen shots i have taken from both the original and the cce encoded copy and found out that the cce encode lacks +10 in hue/saturation. (meaning that if i add this number to the encode image screenshot, it look as the original)

i am going to try this tweek you presented, ill post an image or the results tomorrow morning when the CCE encode is finished.

[jdobbs]

Originally posted by dannyv
Intresting.

I sometimes have dv and dvd that I would like to add more color into. I've never got the hang of editing avi scrips. Would you clearfy for me. If I wanted to increase saturation I would enter into the avs filter editor:

Tweak(clip float sat=1.2)

to increase it a small amount? Just use add this to the filter editor:

Tweak(0,1.2,0,1)

The "clip" will take the default (the input video)

[jdobbs]

For those interested... there are tons of things that can be done with AVISYNTH... you might want to take a look at that forum.

[GrofLuigi]

Originally posted by Rockas
Maybe that's why some one said (refering colors):

NTSC (Never The Same Color)
PAL (Perfection At Last

:D :D :D

I remember it as Pay And Look. :D :D :D

Sorry for OT

GL

[bonefish]

Could use some instructions. so if i want to add +10 saturation to a movie, i would add Tweak(0,10,0,1) correct??

where do i make this adjustment, and how do i implement it to work with DVD-RB, or is that automatically saved for all future encodes, when i have made the tweak i mean, or do i have to do this everytime i have a new source?

followed the link on avisynth webpage to the filter editor which i saw mentioned in this thread (http://www.lalternative.org/) but the link there seem to be dead? is this the editor i need?

could someone that have experience with this provide a simple step/guide on how to add this tweak

[dannyv]

Originally posted by bonefish
Could use some instructions. so if i want to add +10 saturation to a movie, i would add Tweak(0,10,0,1) correct??

where do i make this adjustment, and how do i implement it to work with DVD-RB, or is that automatically saved for all future encodes, when i have made the tweak i mean, or do i have to do this everytime i have a new source?

followed the link on avisynth webpage to the filter editor which i saw mentioned in this thread (http://www.lalternative.org/) but the link there seem to be dead? is this the editor i need?

could someone that have experience with this provide a simple step/guide on how to add this tweak

The filter editor is in dvd-rb just click options/avs options/advanced (expert) options. The very first item listed will be the filter editor.

Enter in the field Tweak(0,10,0,1)

To explain further (0,10,0,1)

the first number (0)= the hue and the range is -180.0 to +180.0 default is 0

The second number (10.0) is the Saturation and the range is 0.0 to 10.0 default is 1

The third number (0) is the brightness and the range is -255.0 to 255.0 default is 0

The forth number (1) is the contrast and the range is 0.0 to 10.0 default is 1.0

So lets say you wanted to shift the hue all the way to the red then set the saturation to max, set the brightness to max and set the contrast to max you would enter

tweek(180,10,255,10)

[Boulder]

ColorMatrix, lads, ColorMatrix.

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82217&highlight=colormatrix

[bonefish]

thanks Boulder,

the link you posted seem to be the answer to my first question.
i read the link you posted, and found colormatrix v15, and the updated presumably faster colormatrix in the same forum

can i ask you how to implement this into the DVD-RB process?
downloaded both files, but i cant figure it out. using DVD-RB 0.67, help?

thanks also dannyv for explaining the tweak further, but i am leaning more towards the colormatrix tweak, as i read that its a common problem (loosing colors)

[TheSeeker]

Bonefish

Use RB-Opt to add the line ColorMatrix() right after the LoadSource() line in the avs script. At least Im pretty sure that is where it goes.

EDIT: And of course you need the LoadPlugin line to load the colormatrix filters.

[bonefish]

alright,

but where do i place the colormatrix downloaded files? there are plenty in that zip file. ColorMatrix.dll is one of them.

they should all go into the avisynth/plugin directory?

what i understood so far is to set dvd-rb into 3step process, and after step1, load the inf file into rb-opt. then do what you stated in your post, right? and then just add the line ColorMatrix()right after the LoadSource()

where is the loadplugin line? hehe, sorry for all the lame questions, but feels like i am close now....

[bonefish]

cant i just use dvd-rb's avs/filter editor for this, instead of rb-opt?

to place a line for example

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\colormatrix.dll")

or do i have to use both dvd-rb's filter editor and rb-opt to get it to work? and lastly, colormatrix.dll is the only file i really need from that colormatrix.zip file right?

[jdobbs]

You certainly can use the filter editor. If you place the .DLL in the AVISYNTH plug-in directory you don't need to do the load.

[TheSeeker]

but from what I understand if you use the filter editor in DVDRB i dont think the Colormatrix() function will be in the right place in the avs script. from what I read in the script it has to be right after the loadsource() line.

[jdobbs]

Why would it have to be right after the loadsource line? I just tested it. It seems to work fine.

[TheSeeker]

I didnt necessarily say it HAD to be there. That is just where the instructions that i saw said it had to go. Its good to know that they can go in the filter editor though. I would rather do it that way anyways.

[jdobbs]

I went back and read the post... he did recommend it go right after loading the source. I moved it -- but couldn't tell any difference. The only reason I can think of is so it falls before the "Convert" statement.

I personally think if I have a saturation problem I will adjust it with Tweak. Nothing against this filter, as I don't know that much about it -- I just like to limit what effect I have on the source.

Has anyone done a comparison of the output similar to what we saw in the first post of this thread?

[bonefish]

i am going to do that now jdobbs.

what setting would you use for the tweak option, so i can include it in the test that i will do. was thinking of adding 10hue 10sat for the test. as those are the number i came up with in photoshop.

for the colorspace test, no need to add this in the filter editor right?

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\AviSynth 2.5\plugins\colormatrix.dll")

as long as colormatrix.dll is located in the plugins folder.
no other files from that colormatrix zip file is needed right? Then should it be enough to place this - Colormatrix() in the filter editor for the filter to be loaded properly right?

[Boulder]

There is a link in the ColorMatrix thread to the thread which contains discussion and samples. It's quite easy to test whether it works or not, load the VOB directly to one instance of VDubMod, load a ColorMatrixed mpv to one and non-ColorMatrixed to one. Compare the same frame, you should see that the ColorMatrixed one looks the same as the VOB.

Personally I place the filter right after resizing so that it works as fast as possible.

[bonefish]

I see,

if you were to use it with DVD-RB though, how would you set that up?
im guessing put ColorMatrix.dll into avisynth/plugins folder, and add ColorMatrix() in DVD-RB filter editor, will this work properly?

you dont need to add anything between the () 's?

by the way, what verson of colormatrix are you using? there is plenty of them in the colormatrix threads........

[Sir Didymus]

Hi guys...

Sorry if I add some "noise" to this thread, and it would really be interesting to understand why bonefish is loosing saturation is such an evident manner.

Since I am almost sure the same effect is not present in my encodings (have to say I am from PAL) I got a look to the Colormatrix thread. Let me just report:

Originally posted by Wilbert
That's interesting. It means if you are doing DVD -> DVD using AVS_YUY2 -> CCE, the same coefficients are used (in both cases the default MPEG2 coefficients). Thus, in this case, you shouldn't apply ColorMatrix.

This is IMHO exactlely the situation that holds in the conversions made using DVD-RB: The ConvertToYUY2 statement is present in all of the avs files generated by DVD-RB and CCE is working on this color space... Isn't this right ?

In the DgIndex projects created by DVD-RB the following statements are present:

Stream_Type=1
iDCT_Algorithm=2
YUVRGB_Scale=1 (0:TVScale 1:PCScale)

This also seems right, (even though apparently not) due to the following argument, extracted from the CCE faq:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53770

Q12: How do I set the "Luminance Level" option correctly?

To make it short: it doesn't matter unless your video is in RGB format.

...
skip
...

DVD2AVI projects frame served into CCE via AVISynth/mpeg2decX.dll do not use RGB but the YUV color space which is basically just another name for YCbCr. So no conversion takes place and you can ignore both the YUV -> RGB Scale setting in DVD2AVI and the Luminance Level setting in CCE.

Here is the proof: take any short clip you know is in YUV color format. For instance, the following short AVISynth script ensures you get a YUV colors clip:

ColorBars(720,480)
ConvertToYUY2
Trim(0, 299)

Now encode that clip in CCE into two different files, use "0-255" for the first and "16-235" for the second encode. Perform a binary comparison of both MPV files (use a command line fc /b clip0_255.mpv clip16_235.mpv). They will be identical.

[Boulder]

I think that Wilbert's statement applied to this particular case:


Color coefficient is S170 (SMPTE 170M) according to GSpot.


In many cases with my DVDs there have been no coeffs so MPEG-1 is assumed, in which case ColorMatrix() should be used to keep the original colors.

EDIT: Wilbert also says this:



2) MPEG-2 capture (no coeffs shown) to MPEG-2 in CCE : ColorMatrix()


That's a tricky one. Of course, your cap application (assuming it's just an analog cap) doesn't know which coefficients should be used. Since pal/ntsc standards always (should) use mpeg1 coefficients (ITU BT.601-4), you should use
ColorMatrix(mode="mpeg1->mpeg2")

[Sir Didymus]

Hi Boulder,

The argument seems it is really like a difficult knot...

For the moment I am doing other tests... you know... ;)

Nevertheless it actually seems to me the key sentence is:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
DVD2AVI projects frame served into CCE via AVISynth/mpeg2decX.dll do not use RGB but the YUV color space which is basically just another name for YCbCr. So no conversion takes place...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

If this holds, i.e. no colorspace conversions involved in the chain:
Source VOB (or m2v) --> DGIndex Project --> AvsScript --> CCE feed,

then I see (for the moment) no need to use ColorMatrix...

Using Gspot, on some recent backup I did, I see no coefficient in the source m2v and no coefficient in the CCE encodings, ... so it "should" (I hope...) be safe not to apply the Wilbert ColorMatrix correction...

Cheers,
SD

[bonefish]

just a question,

does it have to do with what mpeg decoder you use? i mean MPEG2Dec3dg.dll vs. DGDECODE.dll? i saw in doom9's guide to DVD-RB that you should use DGDECODE.dll, however in DVD rebuilder forum\setup and usage, it states that dgdecode.dll is not supported, use link here to MPEG2Dec3dg.dll if in doubt.

i have more faith in dvd rebuilder forum, so im using MPEG2Dec3dg.dll

[Boulder]

It shouldn't matter, and if I'm not entirely mistaken, DVD-RB supports DGDecode.

The need for ColorMatrix seems to depend entirely on the source, some sources need it and some don't as different coefficients are used in the original VOBs.

[Sir Didymus]

Hi Boulder...

Yes, just confirming, from the DVD-RB readme...

October 14th, 2004 (v0.64)
- Added support for DGDECODE.DLL. This is a newer, more accurate, and faster
version of MPEG3DEC3DG.DLL. In order to use it, download DGMPGDec from the
Doom9 site (the only required portion of the .ZIP file is DGDECODE.DLL. You
must point to the file from DVD-RB's "Setup" dialog. The MPEG2DEC3 path area
name has been changed to "DECODER". NOTE: In order to use DGDECODE.DLL you
MUST point to it in the DECODER area of the setup dialog and it must not be
renamed (from DGDECODE.DLL). DVD-RB will default to MPEG2DEC3DG.DLL. Hats
off to Neuron2 (Donald Graft) who is an MPEG Maestro.

@bonefish...

Never thrust totally on old post contents... Especially when they discuss about some "new release" features... ;)

[CoNS]

Is there a conclusion to this discussion, yet?

Did you run some tests, bonefish, and what did they show?

I think I'm experiencing the same loss of saturation problem with DVD-RB / CCE 2.67, too, so I'd like to learn how to avoid it and which settings to do, where?

[Wilbert]

Hmm, interesting discussion. Sorry, I usually don't read this subforum, so I couldn't comment sooner :)

@bonefish,

How did you make your CCE encoding screenshot? (also VDubMod I guess, but just want to be sure ...)

Using Gspot, on some recent backup I did, I see no coefficient in the source m2v and no coefficient in the CCE encodings, ... so it "should" (I hope...) be safe not to apply the Wilbert ColorMatrix correction...
I agree with this statement. The absence of the coefficients in both streams indicates that the use of ColorMatrix is not necessary. So, something else must be the problem :) Are there other people how can do this test?

Perhaps I will install CCE and do also some tests on sunday (if my internet connection works again). Btw, could you upload a 10 frames vob segment?


If this holds, i.e. no colorspace conversions involved in the chain:
Source VOB (or m2v) --> DGIndex Project --> AvsScript --> CCE feed,

then I see (for the moment) no need to use ColorMatrix...

The absence of color conversions is not important. If you do
Source VOB --> DGIndex Project --> AvsScript --> DivX/Xvid,
you do need ColorMatrix.