IVTC examples

[AdeptEnc]

I have been trying out different methods to determine whether something should be IVTC'ed or deinterlaced. I have tried NUMEROUS different dvd's and they all come out either FILM or Interlaced - never teleclined. So, either I just cannot find a teliclined source, or I'm doing something wrong in my analysis.

I was wondering if anyone can post examples, or name a dvd title, of something that SHOULD be IVTC'ed??

thx for the help

[manono]

Well, you can make your FILM sources with no Force FILM, and then IVTC them. :)

Most Asian movie DVDs produced for R1 by Asian companies (not, for example, by Miramax) can't be Force FILMed, but can be IVTC'd. Most anime TV series DVDs must be IVTC'd. There aren't many silent films on R1 DVD that are FILM.

So, either I just cannot find a telecined source,...

We must have different tastes in movies. I rarely do anything that's really interlaced, but I have to IVTC probably over 50% of the time. Don't look at Hollywood movie DVDs for stuff to IVTC. Most of them these days are done right. Look further afield.

[AdeptEnc]

I understand about the force film - if DGIndex reports film >95%, then you use force film and NO IVTC or deinterlacing is required. I have encoded a couple films like this and had good results.

The other stuff I am mainly encoding, from dvd, is skateboarding and bmx dvds, and tv episodes like 'curb your enthusiasm'. When I open ALL (at least 10 different tests in the last week) of these .d2v projects in GKnot, and skip through the frames, they play smooth - they seem to be simply interlaced. Also, when I deinterlace these encodes, they DO look fine.

So, I am just wanting to find an example of something that for sure NEEDS to be IVTC'ed, so I know that I'm understanding the process.

thanks again

[scharfis_brain]

IVTCable do have this cyclic pattern:

PPP II PPP II PPP II PPP II

P - progressive
I - interlaced

this is 3:2 telecined film, that can be returned to 23.976p using IVTC

IIIIIIIIIIIIII
mostly is 60i, which either needs to be deinterlaced or left interlaced (for DVD archival)

PPPPPPPPPPP
is 30p , which should never be touched.

also there may be other weird patterns
manano for sure can tell you more ;)

[AdeptEnc]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain
IVTCable do have this cyclic pattern:

PPP II PPP II PPP II PPP II

P - progressive
I - interlaced

this is 3:2 telecined film, that can be returned to 23.976p using IVTC

IIIIIIIIIIIIII
mostly is 60i, which either needs to be deinterlaced or left interlaced (for DVD archival)

PPPPPPPPPPP
is 30p , which should never be touched.



Is there a place/file/way to find this info:

PPP II PPP II PPP II PPP II
IIIIIIIIIIIIII
PPPPPPPPPPP

???

or was this just an example??

[scharfis_brain]

just load the mpeg into vdubmod.

if it is
ppp ii ppp ii
(scroll frame by frame through the video)
then it needs ivtc.

if it is

pppppp

it is either
23.976 fps progressive
or
29.97 fps progressive

get that information from the File -> information dialogue

[AdeptEnc]

When you say 'load the mpeg' - you just mean load the vob straight into Vdub, right?? I did that and of those examples I mentioned I have been testing - they all seem to be interlaced except one is real weird: it has some clips that look real nice, and these clips play 3 frames smooth, 2 frames interlaced. These clips count for about 5% of the 30 minute video - the rest is all every frame interlaced.

So, it is possible to have clips that were teleclined and clips that weren't from the SAME dvd - in the same vob??

If so, why would it be like that?? And if so, I would just need to deinterlace the project, correct??

Finally, in a NORMAL project, the whole thing would be IVTC'ed, correct??

I appreciate the help!

[manono]

manano for sure can tell you more

Oh yeah, for sure. Here's one I'm doing at the moment:

pp i p i #does that cycle 32 times, followed by:
pp i p i p i #and then the whole thing starts over again

Weird, eh? So, you use:

B=TDeint(Order=1,Mode=1)
SmartDecimate(50,167,B).AssumeFPS(18)

you just mean load the vob straight into Vdub, right??

Yes, that's what he means. You'll get the same thing by opening a non-Force FILM .d2v in GKnot.

So, it is possible to have clips that were teleclined and clips that weren't from the SAME dvd - in the same vob??

Yes, they're all at 29.97fps.

If so, why would it be like that??

The sources are mixed, film and video. That's a dreaded hybrid.

And if so, I would just need to deinterlace the project, correct??

That's one way to handle it.

Finally, in a NORMAL project, the whole thing would be IVTC'ed, correct??

In a normal movie project, it's encoded progressively and you can Force FILM. Material that's been telecined prior to encoding and that's encoded as Interlaced can be IVTC'd. That's all explained in the IVTC Tutorial (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34696) which I think you read, but maybe didn't fully understand.

[AdeptEnc]

thanks so much for the help.

So, a NORMAL project that needs to be IVTC'ed will just have the 3P 2I pattern, correct??

If so, I still have not found any project completely like that - just that one project with a very few teleclined sections, which I cannot IVTC the whole project, and it's not important enough to split the sections up.

I'm wanting to find a whole project that I can IVTC, so I know that I'm doing it right... anyone know any dvd titles that might be easy to find that need to be IVTC'ed??

[manono]

Just go down to Blockbuster to their Martial Arts section and get a Jackie Chan or Jet Li DVD from their Hong Kong period (not their crap American movies) and one of those should be what you want.

[AdeptEnc]

Originally posted by scharfis_brain

get that information from the File -> information dialogue [/B]

When you said 'get that information from the File -> information dialogue' ... in my Vdubmod it is 'File information' not 'info dialogue' - is this the same setting you are talking about??

If so, I see in there a line that says 'Number of I, P and B frames'. In one example of mine, that is COMPLETELY interlaced, it reads: 961 / 3736 / 7512. Since it does not actually show me the pattern, I don't know what to make of it/how to use these numbers - can you give me any advice??

Also, I don't know why the I frames are so much lower than the P frames since the whole thing is interlaced. I have looked at 3 projects that are ALL interlaced, and they all give similar results. Finally, I looked at a project that is ALL film, and it had similar results too.

Thanks so much!

[scharfis_brain]

the I,P and B frames are frame types in MPEG-Streams:
I = intra = keyframe
P = predictional
B = bidirectional

they do have no releation to I (interlaced) and P (progressive)

if a frame is interlaced or progressive is not judgeable by a computer. computers are too dumb for this task.

you have to watch for it with your own eyes.


btw.:
computers are dumb, totally dumb. and this incredibly fast!

[jggimi]

Any film based R1 disc will give you 3:2 pulldown if you disable Force FILM. Doing that, you can see what standard Telecining should look like.