My first Dual Layer Recordings....

[s_kound]

Ok so…… I’ve wasted 90 euros for 10 Verbatim DVD+R DL and yesterday I performed some tests with 3 empty DVD+R DL discs and the movie UNDERWORLD. My recorder is LG GSA-5120D.


First Test

- I’ve ripped the original DVD to my HDD with dvd decrypter (iso – read) and I ended up with an iso-mds file of 7.40GB size.
- I burned the DVD+R DL with dvd decrypter (iso – write) and the recorder burned the disc in 47 ëåðôÜ (including finalizing) @ 2.4× speed. The bitsetting was DVD ROM.

Result?

- My player Yamakawa 365 was reading the disc without a problem but when it came to start it froze…… no picture…… Just insert the disc, read it and froze……

I repeated the test and I un-checked all the remove options in dercypter settings just to see if it will do something differently.

Second Test

- I’ve ripped the main movie with dvd shrink (which removed the layer break) and shrink created an Image iso to my HDD.
- Burned the iso with Nero 6.6.0.1 (new) and nero added a new layer break and 39 minutes after , the disk was ready @ 2.4X
-
Result?

- My player Yamakawa 365 was reading the disc without a problem and I was watching the movie for 53 minutes ….. Suddenly the layer tried to change and the player FROZE !!!!!!
- The same with Plextor 708 Dvd recorder.
- The same with Pioneer 121 Dvd Rom.



What am I doing wrong?
Is there a secure way to write full (menus etc) or main movie only in a dual layer DVD+R without problems?


Thank you in advance.

[PeterMac]

Bad luck!

You've done most things right. The received wisdom is to use Verbatim, so that's ok. And most people get a perfect copy by using Decrypter to make an ISO and then burning that ISO also with Decrypter. You don't get an opportunity to make any changes, but it should nevertheless be a perfect copy of the original.
The only time this might not be the case is if the original is a PTP disc and therefore not an OTP type, which is what DVD+R DL discs are (info courtesy LIGHTNING)
It's curious you had a failure then; have you tried a different DVD?

I wonder if the problem with Nero was because you presented it with an ISO? Ahead is currently boasting of its prowess with layer breaks, which makes me think that you may have compromised its ability to place the layer break in the IFO and the actual transition point in the VOB at precisely the same spot...
Process the DVD first with Shrink or CloneDVD2 to remove the original layer break, and then let Nero strut its stuff on the output files (not ISO).

After all, what have you got to lose - apart from money!;)

-Pete

[s_kound]

Pete Thank you for your reply,

First of all let me start ny saying "sorry" for my poor english , but it's not my native language....

Now,

I'll rip the disc with shrink and burn with nero (not iso) and i'll get back to you....

one question though..... What is PTP and how can i find out if the DVD that i was trying to copy was a PTP disc? This way i could figure out whether is the ORIGINAL DISC thing and not mine.....

Thank you in advance

[thensa]

PTP = parallel track path
OTP = opposite track path

DVD Decrypter tells you which one it is when you are ripping the files to HD.

[s_kound]

ok.... just checked it ....

It's a Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP).

So this is not the case.......

[PeterMac]

Are your Verbatim discs individually shrink-wrapped? I did hear somewhere that the ones bought in bulk on a spindle have a different dye formulation to the ones in individual cases.:(

Can you play your new DVDs in your computer? Computer drives should play anything. Especially, they should handle layer breaks well because they have huge buffers to cache the playback stream. This is why you never see that small pause of ~1 second that is sometimes seen when stand-alone players reach a layer break.

When I was ruining my first 5 DLs, every one of them would play perfectly on the computer, but not on my Pioneer 545 stand-alone. The only one that plays on the 545 is Reservoir Dogs made using Decrypter in ISO Read, ISO Write mode! My discs were Riteks, which everyone tells me are not fit to park a cup of coffee on, and as soon as I acquired some Verbatims the dark clouds would roll away and the sun would shine. I'm expecting some Verbatims today. As soon as I have them I'll try one or two things and get back to you.

I have to tell you though, I think dual-layer is too unpredictable (and too expensive) at the moment. It wouldn't be so bad if we could get RW types to experiment with (what's happened to them, I wonder?). I think maybe we should wait for another six months until manufacturing technology and software have both evolved a bit more.

-Pete

[PeterMac]

s_kound:

I said I'd get back to you when I had the Verbatims. The results are unexpected.

The DVD I tested was Shrek 2 (PAL R2). This is a complex disc with lots of titles plus some computer/web files for kids to play with on the computer.

The first test was with Decrypter: ISO Read, ISO Write. No changes, just a straight copy. The writing was at a speed of 4x (Verbatims are certified at 2.4x), but since I had Decrypter's speed setting at Max, I assumed the Pioneer 108 was happy with it (or it would not have allowed its use).
Testing on the Pioneer 545 stand-alone showed that playback froze at the layer-break point and did not proceed further. Moreover, it was not possible to access any chapters on layer 2! Choosing them from the chapter menu gave a broken, heavily pixelated 'still' picture and nothing more.

I have AnyDVD resident on the computer. Inserting this new disc caused AnyDVD to protest that the disc was unreadable!

This was a much worse result than previously achieved with dear old Riteks!

The second test was to pass the files through CloneDVD2. In doing so, the computer/web files got left behind and the layer-break was removed altogether. All you have left is the contents of VIDEO_TS. (I also used CDVD2 to remove a copyright warning, which pops up when the disc is first inserted, and irritates the hell out of me for 30 seconds.)
I then used Nero 6.6.0.1 to produce a Nero image (nrg file). Checking this image showed that Nero had inserted a new layer-break point at a different location.
I burnt this image, this time forcing the speed to 2.4x

It worked perfectly!

The actual location of the break is not one I would have chosen personally, since it is in the middle of a scene and therefore noticeable. I prefer layer-breaks to occur at chapter points, when the general 'scene change' tends to mask any momentary pause.

So there you are.

Did the 4x speed ruin the first DVD?
Is Nero making a better fist of dual-layer than Decrypter?
Is dual-layer copying worth it?

The answer to the first two questions is: 'who knows?'
The answer to the last is No.

Until RW media is available for experiments, or R media falls in price to something more sensible, you are playing Russian Roulette with your wallet. The modest improvement in quality is not currently commensurate with the costs/risks - in my opinion.

-Pete

[thensa]

mmm this matches up with the results i got, decrypter didnt work, CloneDVD2 -> Nero worked very well.

Listen can you do the following for the working backup disc, non working backup disc and original disc :-

Put each disc in youe dvd drive and start up dvd decrypter, highlite all the text in white text window on the dilaog then copy and post the whole text here stating which text relates to which of the three discs, this will help LIGHTNING UK try and figure out what is happening.

[PeterMac]

Well, I've done what I can.

The attached log shows Decrypter's progress with the IFO Write, using a previously obtained IFO Read.

At the end of the log is Decrypter's take on the properties of the good disc - the one burnt by Nero.

I cannot do the same for the bad disc as Decrypter won't read it!

-Pete

[s_kound]

Pete,

Thank you very much for the research / help :)

I just got in from work and now I'm creating a VIDEO_TS folder with cloneDVD2 and then i'll make image with nero and burn it (as you said).... The movie will be once again the UNDERWORLD R2 movie aprox. 7.8GB

I'll get back to you with MY results !!!!

Thank you for your PRECIOUS help :)

[PeterMac]

You're very welcome :)

I don't know why my attachment - see above - didn't 'attach', but here it is again (I hope!).

Later:

Didn't work. Never mind, here it is in full.

//--- Bad disc first

I 12:46:07 DVD Decrypter Version 3.5.1.0 started!
I 12:46:07 Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional (5.0, Build 2195 : Service Pack 4)
I 12:46:07 Initialising SPTI...
I 12:46:07 Searching for SCSI / ATAPI devices...
I 12:46:07 Found 1 DVD-ROM and 1 DVD±RW!
I 12:47:14 Operation Started!
I 12:47:14 Source File: J:\Full Movies\Shrek2\SHREK_2.MDS
I 12:47:14 Source File Sectors: 3,500,987 (MODE1/2048)
I 12:47:14 Source File Size: 7,170,021,376 bytes
I 12:47:14 Destination Device: [1:0:0] PIONEER DVD-RW DVR-108 1.14 (Z:) (ATA)
I 12:47:14 Destination Media Type: DVD+R DL (Disc ID: MKM-001-00) (Speeds: 2.4x, 4x)
I 12:47:14 Destination Media Sectors: 4,173,824
I 12:47:14 Write Mode: DVD
I 12:47:14 Write Speed: MAX
I 12:47:14 Test Mode: No
I 12:47:14 BURN-Proof: Enabled
I 12:47:14 Optimal L0 Data Zone Capacity: 2,032,688
I 12:47:14 Optimal L0 Data Zone Method: Copied From Original Disc
I 12:47:37 Filling Buffer...
I 12:47:39 Writing LeadIn...
I 12:47:40 Writing Image...
I 13:09:31 Synchronising Cache...
I 13:09:32 Closing Track...
I 13:09:37 Finalising Disc...
I 13:13:40 Operation Successfully Completed! - Duration: 00:26:26
I 13:13:40 Average Write Rate: 5,340 KB/s (3.9x) - Maximum Write Rate: 5,565 KB/s (4.0x)

--------------------------------------------------------

PIONEER DVD-RW DVR-108 1.14 (ATA)
Current Profile: DVD+R DL

Disc Information:
Status: Complete
Erasable: No
Sessions: 1
Sectors: 3,500,992
Size: 7,170,031,616 bytes
Time: 778:01:67 (MM:SS:FF)
Supported Write Speeds: 2.4x, 4x

DVD+R DL Boundary Information:
L0 Data Zone Capacity: 2,032,688
Changeable: No

Physical Format Information (ADIP):
Disc ID: MKM-001-00
Book Type: DVD+R DL
Part Version: 1
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,580,607
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 2,283,519

Physical Format Information (Last Recorded):
Disc ID: MKM-001-00
Book Type: DVD-ROM
Part Version: 1
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,016,223
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 2,229,295




//-------------- GOOD DISC, via NERO 6.6

PIONEER DVD-ROM DVD-105 1.33 (ATA)
Current Profile: DVD-ROM

Disc Information:
Status: Unknown
Erasable: Unknown
Formatted: Unknown
Sessions: Unknown
Sectors: 3,471,520
Size: 7,109,672,960 bytes
Time: 771:28:70 (MM:SS:FF)

Physical Format Information (Last Recorded):
Disc ID: MKM-001-00
Book Type: DVD-ROM
Part Version: 1
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,388,543
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 2,028,399

[PeterMac]

s_kound:

I don't know how you managed tonight, but I have an update for you.

I used Decrypter to burn a new copy of Shrek 2, this time setting the speed to 2.4x The previous time, with Decrypter's speed set to Max, it chose the 4x setting.

The new copy is perfect! I had the Verify option selected and it gave the new disc a completely clean bill of health.

So, unless the first blank was defective (unlikely), DL Verbatims don't like being burnt at 4x.

And when you think about it, is it worth risking an expensive DL blank for a tiny speed advantage? It isn't, is it?

-Pete

[alexnoe]

Usually they do work at 4x. Either your drive or the disc is b0rked

[s_kound]

Peter,

My drive only burns iin 2.4x so the speed isn't an issue in my case.....

Yesterday i burned underworld like you said but the result is the same....

I know it's not my standalone who has the problem cause many others (friends from various forums included) had succesful reads....

I know it's not the media cause everybody sais that VERBATIM DL is the GOD of DL media.

So it could be 2 things.....

My Dvd recorder ...... i e-mailed LG to ask if it will be a new firmware released in the near future for better DL recordings.

Software with Recorder .... incompatibility? But i've tried Everything!!!!!

So the conclusion is that i'll throw out the window my external DVD recorder (LG) and go buy something like NEC3500 , cause i've already wasted 7 verbatims (70euros) and with those money i could buy a brand new recorder......

IF the fault is indeed from LG's drive.... i have one thing to say.. -------> F&&&K LG....... you advertise burners with DL capability while the burners are a total JOKE..... why i'll have to pay money and money and money for testing in order for you to release a firmware to solve the problems?

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Guessing your drive is very similar to the 4120 model, the A104 firmware didnt work with DL discs very well. Only updated A110 / A111 / A112 work.

Wait for an update and then try again. Until then, I suggest you save your DL discs!

[s_kound]

I'll keep the drive (as it's external) and won't burn again DL discs until the new firmware comes out....

@ monday i'm waiting for my new NEC 3500...... in order to see the light :) :)

[alexnoe]

I really wonder why people get external drives instead of internal one + external enclosure.

BTW, Firmware A104 wrote b0rked DVD+R in general, not only b0rked DVD+R DL