it comes once every 4 year

[dani82]

no people, not a leap year, that was last February, i'm talking about excuses (to use) NOT to vote; to abide by forum rules, please do not talk about candidates or prop whatever.



Sir/Madam, why didn't you vote this year:


my vote is not going to matter, cause my sister is voting the other way.

i'll just vote twice next year.

they just told me, i have to register just to vote (mubbling ...ned government)

why vote, i'd never win.

they'd called the police when i'd asked for a ballot.

no habla inglés or no habla español (depending on who's asking you)

the sign said "no shoes, no shirt, no sevices"

[Mug Funky]

hehe... voting is compulsory here, and what's more, the votes are counted by hand (we don't punch holes, but write numbers in boxes) with scrutineers from each candidate overseeing the count in each polling booth. it works pretty well - manual counts are much more accurate, and if things are close we go through and look at the informal votes to see if there's any that may actually be valid. i've scrutineered before, and it's more fun than it sounds... at least i know firsthand that it is fair.

i'm not quite sure which is better - compulsory voting or voluntary. i know there's a lot less money in campaigns (and thus less campaign contributions from interest groups), but whether that amounts to a better process, i don't know.

unfortunately the bad guys won here besides all that :(

[SeeMoreDigital]

Personally I would not be happy with compulsory voting. Unless there was a box you could tick to say "I don't want to vote for any of these crappy parties".

And what's so difficult with putting a big fat "X" in a box... it's got to be easier than trying to punch a hole in a card...


Cheers

[KpeX]

If anyone watched the newest South Park last week they had a really funny parody on Puff Daddy and all the other 'activists' that want you to vote....IMO the 'voting propaganda' this election year, especially targeted at the younger generation has been ridiculous. You'd think they'd learn by now that the best way to get someone to not do something is to continously harass them to do it.

@Mug Funky

So what is the penalty for not voting? Or do they drag you to the booth?

[Mug Funky]

i think it's about $1000 for not voting.

Unless there was a box you could tick to say "I don't want to vote for any of these crappy parties".

of course you can do that! your only obligation is to show up and get your name ticked off the roll. it's always done on weekends, and doesn't take long.

you should see some of the funny stuff people write on ballots... i saw quite a few where people just wrote their own names in a new box and put a "1" in that... of course, the vote isn't counted when people do that.

but why would you waste a vote, especially in times like these where people get so damn inflamed about who deserves (or doesn't deserve) to be in power. Democracy means giving a crap. it doesn't mean sitting back and complaining about the guys you didn't vote for (especially if you didn't vote at all).

if you're not thinking of voting at all, at least give your vote to a cause you believe in, even if they have no chance of winning. percentages speak pretty loudly here, and major parties will make preference deals with minor ones. lots of policies get made in election years in Australia simply because labor or liberal (equivalent of democrat and republican, essentially, except libs are better at maths than republicans) wanted to get preferences from the greens.

[okay, this thread is SO a political discussion...]

[Morbo]

I vote,just to vote.......I didnt in 2000 because I really became mad that Bush beat McCain.......

But,this time,it was either vote or re-register next time....and I hate paperwork.....lol

Either way,I hope we can get back to doing proper things in the world besides hunting/killing these pesky terrorists.....

And BTW,you can tell terrorists have never been here,look how bad quality the tapes/files are.....

Its called SVHS,HI8mm,and DV you idiots......throw Osamamama's VHS camcorder away.

You'd think that with his money and "connections" he could produce a
tape with a Digital Betacam!!....lol

Cheers and Beers!

[SeeMoreDigital]

Originally posted by Mug Funky
... but why would you waste a vote, especially in times like these where people get so damn inflamed about who deserves (or doesn't deserve) to be in power. Choosing not to vote is still a choice. Not being bothered to vote is another thing entirely!

Ask yourself this question. What does your countries constitution say will have to happen, if the majority of voters "decide" not to vote for any party?

Personally I think "party" politics is too old fashioned a tool for modern day life.

Politicians across all parties, every now and again, come up with good ideas. I'm fed up with "so called" grown-up opposition politicians shouting down, heckling and belittling good ideas just because they didn't emanate from their own party.

A true democratic society should comprise of people who have the courage to work together and listen to what people are saying to them. Certain, modern day topics, whether they be terrorism, genetic engineering, stem cell research, abortion, immigration, etc are too big an issue for individual parties to sort out... On issues such as this, it's up to "we the people" to be directly consulted.

But I doubt such politics will happen in my lifetime ;)


Cheers

[Joe Fenton]

When I don't like a movie, I don't go see it. If I don't like a product, I don't buy it. If I don't like any of the candidates, I don't vote. It's my method of marking "none of the above".

People who vote have no one but themselves to blame for the quality of candidates. When the choice is between a douche and a turd, there's no excuse for voting for either. It's validating a broken system.

[dave2003]

Originally posted by SeeMoreDigital
Choosing not to vote is still a choice. Not being bothered to vote is another thing entirely!
I completely agree. In the former scenario, you are still *exercising* your right to vote, by actively choosing to select neither candidate.

Quite frankly, I've never been impressed by the "lesser of the evils" mentality when it comes to voting. It takes votes to get elected, and unless we start producing better candidates, they're not getting mine.

This whole topic made me think of George Carlin's hilarious rants on politics. :-)

[Mug Funky]

People who vote have no one but themselves to blame for the quality of candidates. When the choice is between a douche and a turd, there's no excuse for voting for either. It's validating a broken system.

...well, you then have no right to complain about who gets in. and don't say you do.

if people don't care, they deserve who they get. unfortunately, if you do care, you can still get someone you don't deserve :)

well, this thread might have to be closed if it gets nasty (though i'm enjoying it right now)...

[edit]

oh, and SeeMoreDigital, i suppose in the highly unlikely case that the majority vote informal, i guess the party with the most members will win - remember candidates will vote for themselves. i really don't know what the constitution has to say about it... the US constitution has some stuff in it that is probably not included in ours. the free speech thing would be a good thing to have specifically set out in the constitution - right now we can be sued for using the McDonalds logo in an artwork, where in America it comes firmly under the first amendment. i think it happened to an Australian band's album cover... it was pulled and changed for something different here, but in the US it wasn't.

well.. i'll stop now. i certainly can't vote in the US elections :)

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
When I don't like a movie, I don't go see it. If I don't like a product, I don't buy it. If I don't like any of the candidates, I don't vote. It's my method of marking "none of the above".

That's not the same thing. When you never go to see a movie that is the end of it. It need never effect your life again. If you don't vote you are leaving choices which effect your life up to someone else. Downright lazy. Show some intrest in your own life and vote. It only takes a few minutes. And I don't care who it's for. If you are of age get out and vote. ;) I agree that the choices are not stellar. But one of the two has to be slightly better. Or vote for a 3rd or 4th party.

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
People who vote have no one but themselves to blame for the quality of candidates.

Since when did voting have anything to do with the quality of candidates?? Since when did you or I elect a candidate? Last I remembered we were voting for president. ;)

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
When the choice is between a douche and a turd, there's no excuse for voting for either. It's validating a broken system.

Guess what. When it comes time to fix the system guess who they are going to listen to? The voters. Because they are going to vote on a solution. And are you going to abstain again because you don't like the choices?

This year they expect the highest voter turnout in a very long time. Nearly 50 to 60 percent. What kind of BS is that? We have the power to put a political independant in who will likely be better since they are not generally heavily influenced by party politics or special interest. But half the population is to lazy to vote!! If 50 to 60 precent of the people are going to vote that means that Bush and Kerry stand to get 25 to 30 percent.If all those that abstained got fed up enough to actually vote for change an independant could get 50 percent of the vote blowing the two parties out of the water with 25% apice! That's alot of wasted potential.

[virus]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
This year they expect the highest voter turnout in a very long time. Nearly 50 to 60 percent. What kind of BS is that?
:eek:

50-60% is the highest voters count you can have in a country that pretends to "dominate" the world? Well, I guess it's a real lack of democratic culture my friends... last time here (in 2001, for the Parliament) we had 80% voters and it was the lowest count ever - it used to be between 82 and 87-88%.

And no, the vote is not compulsory here, and you don't need to register to vote. We don't have 2 parties, but 2 big coalitions - which is roughly the same. We just care about it. Last time there was a reduction in the number of polling stations and many people were forced to stay there from 10 pm until 2 or 3 am in order to finally vote. But very few went away... they waited patiently in their queue and voted.

[Doobie]

South Park's voting episode rocked!

Here are a few reasons not to vote:

The marginal value of your vote is less than the cost to cast it. You have to get in the car, drive, wait in line, come back... some of you might even bother yourselve with the effort to get familiar with the issues and candidates.

Your vote is approval of the sham that modern democracy has become. Some say if you don't vote then you have no right to complain. I say that if you do vote, you have no right to complain.

If you don't know that much about issues and candidates, your vote would only dilute the vote of those more informed than you.

Personally, though, I say that if you want to be happy with yourself, vote for who you think is best, rather then the lessor of two evils.

[shevegen]

It's validating a broken system.

Go and remove those who are in power, change constitution to ensure that the same crap can never happen again (and that those parts of the constitution remain unaltered), implement a 1 person 1 decision direct democracy without the need to delegate your vote to another person (you can voluntarily do so of course if it'd be too much work and a hassle) and remove the bottle-neck effects which happen right now with a really really very small senate compared to... what was it... almost 300 millions altogether?

[Joe Fenton]

Originally posted by Neo Neko
No it is the non voters who are to blame. Go out and vote. Even if you cancle my vote out. Just do it.

So if I boycott Matel for making toys that choke little children, that is MY FAULT? Your logic is flawed at best. Not voting is a form of boycott. I encourage everyone to boycott the elections! If NO ONE voted for ANY of the candidates, it would send a stronger message than voting for "the lesser of two evils."

Check around the polling places - most people are voting AGAINST someone, not FOR someone. That's totally messed up. Boycott the elections and show your disdain for broken toys choking little children!

[LordRPI]

Aren't we supposed to refrain from the war in Iraq and other political discussions?

[ukb007]

Is it true that People get the Leader they deserve?

I can't resist asking, especially Mr Fenton, why is it that a douche and a turd are the choices? Why didn't a better man figure? Have we been doing our best to ensure that a better man comes along? Sitting back and hoping a good man will come along is possibly not the best way to ensure it.

Or may it be so that a better man has come along (one of the douche and the turd) but I just have envisioned a different betterness?

I expect if each of us is asked to list five essential qualities of a good man, then we will get an endless combination of qualities. Because there may not be a single absolute goodness (probably only God has that) - but different perceived variants of it. We can never get wholesome goodness because each of us perceive it differently.

A democracy is just an experiment. It goes on. It has ups and downs, evaluated objectively only in retrospect. We are in love with it because many of us feel that it is 'good' (whatever that means to each of us who feel this way). Look at a smaller example: a family with four children. Do you think it is run with a complete set of democratic principles? Four under-ten children, and two adults. One should think the kids would win as to choices in various matters if it were a democracy. They don't because those with power have decided upon the playing rules.

Perhaps these rules have dictated that a douche and a turd come along as choices.

Regards.

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
So if I boycott Matel for making toys that choke little children, that is MY FAULT? Your logic is flawed at best.

No. Mattel is a business. The government is not. They can look similar in some aspects. But even if you choose not to participate directly in government it still effects you directly.


Originally posted by Joe Fenton
Not voting is a form of boycott. I encourage everyone to boycott the elections! If NO ONE voted for ANY of the candidates, it would send a stronger message than voting for "the lesser of two evils."

Yes it would. That the general public is ignorant. Assuming you could get everyone to abstain(which will never happen). The candidates would still vote for themselves. If they did not then what was the point of running in the first place? And if they each voted for themselves there would be a tie. A tie that the electoral college is contractually bound to decide upon.

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
Check around the polling places - most people are voting AGAINST someone, not FOR someone. That's totally messed up.

Not really. You can't be against something without being for something. And vice versa. Even if it is only a narrow margin of difference. This is a typical election. Nothing special. Especially as long as you abstain.

Originally posted by Joe Fenton
Boycott the elections and show your disdain for broken toys choking little children!

I am afraid I'll have to disagree. Nothing ever got fixed from doing nothing about it.

[Neo Neko]

Originally posted by LordRPI
Aren't we supposed to refrain from the war in Iraq and other political discussions?

True. And anyhow it is more or less to late to vote. So there is little point left in the topic anyway.

[trodas]

supposed to refrain from the war in Iraq and other political discussions?

If is discussion about voting not political in the whole basic, then I don't know, what it is political... ;) :o

And I disagree on the "not talk about war in Iraq" thing at all - it's just my opinion, but the evil of war (and Bush war loonies) did not just disapear when we just "did not talk about them"? :rolleyes:

Sadly, it will not disapear but only grew stronger.


Joe Fenton - not voting is not a solution, because this only increasing the chance that the disciplinated republican (or other close to dictatorship ideas partys - in other countries) will win, because they all will go and vote.
(disciplinated, just like Hitler NSDAP)
Voting for 3rd or 4st kandidate is much better - it show them all, that there is something desperately missing, witch is why ppls vote for other ones.
Not voting is not a solution.

Remember one thing - the ONLY thing necessary to win of evil is that the good men did not do a thing.

...witch is exactly the no-voting thing you suggested.


Bottom line - yes, this is a doom9 forum, where we should talk about video codecs, aspect rations and stuff, but at lest this post is in the generall discussion thread ;) :D

...and to maintain a little more close to neutral aspect of my post...

About Kerry (Playboy October 2004)
After prep school, Kerry matriculated at Yale, where his classmates gave him the playful nickname Senator Kerry. Upon graduation, inspired by his initial-sake, Kerry, enlisted in the Navy. He served as swift-boat officer in the Menkong Delta and was constantly trying to get his boat sunk so ho could rescue people. Upon completing an act of heroism, Kerry would receive a medal, witch he would then hold up in front of the poster of JFK in his room and shout, "I'm closing in, bitch." :D :D :D

[neo75903]

idd, voting should be mandatory for a democracy. At the long term ppl will develop interest for politics and contribute their vote to what they think it is important. I can realize that there are millions of poor americans does not go to vote coz they think it want matter to them and politics want care about them coz they dont go voting anyway.
Only a mandatory law can brake this circle.

Well that is my opinion, but what the heck i dont live in USA, who am i to care :)

[Mug Funky]

nah, IMHO compulsory voting only really has an effect on the length and cost of the campaign. if you already know EVERYONE is going to vote, you don't need that rediculous campaign crap we get on our teevs worldwide - you just have to state why people should vote for you. this still makes for annoying campaigns, but far far less so. campaign contributions by big business interests are much less of a problem, too.

i know heaps of people who just voted informal at the latest election here. they went in, ticked their name off, and that's all they wanted to do. the ballot in many people's minds is an art contest :) (a friend of mine drew pirates all over hers).

the best way to break voter apathy is to change the 2 party system, like seemoredigital says. i think preferences are a good idea - a number in every box, in order of who you want to win. the parties distribute "how to vote" cards that say who they'd like to win if they don't. this way minor parties get a say on issues without needing to win (which is pretty much impossible). in Australia a lot of people vote for the Greens, which is a "fringe" party. there's always a scramble between the dominant 2 parties to get the greens to put the "2" on the how to vote card in their favour. this means their agendas can get heard, and other parties have something to bargain with.

that said, the Bad Party still won by a depressing majority. i hate Liberals (i'm talking about a party called "liberal" who are in fact ultra-right bastards). never met a nice one, but i've met plenty of slimy disgusting ones. maybe it's the same with all politicians?

okay, my side of this illegal political discussion is over now :)

[edit]
spoke too soon... my friend just linked me to this, and i thought it was so funny i should post it in a political discussion :) don't worry, it's not pr0n or anything.

http://www.dreness.com/bits/paperclip.jpg

[Wilbert]

@Mug Funky and everyone else

I kept this thread open, because the elections are important for all of us for several reasons. But, if we can't discuss it without insulting people I will close this thread.

[neo75903]

I also agree with SeeMoreDigital with a government based on coalition. Let say i like to vote for green and both reps and democrates are crying they are also for green, which one do i have to vote for?
In Europe, we vote for green and if there are enough green voters they will be taken into the government no matter reps or democrates have the majority of the votes as ...


from virus:
We don't have 2 parties, but 2 big coalitions -


and i think that is the beauty of democracy, ppl from different groups to work together compromise, which is this all about, and take decisions.
One good thing about this is for example it would take a lot more time before we would have send our army out unless there is clear evidence to do so.

There is always a "i dont vote for any" option in EU, as far i know. But i can bet over 2 or 3 times those non-active voters will start thinking who to vote for next time. Compulsoty voting does not only means you 'must' go vote, but it is also a powerfull tool of politics awarness.
Our ancestors have fought for this right, other ppl come from far places to our western world because they have no chance to choose their own leaders with all conscequenties for the country they live in.
It is not much asked to keep a democracy working.
And as many pointed out before, a vote is a right, use it.

Well this is my chapter, seeya all over 4 years :) (about this topic)

[Neo Neko]

Not voting sends no message to anyone whatsoever. Not voting is a foolish thing to do. If you don't like the candidates write in someone else. That will send a message. "Yes I took the time and effort to fill out a ballot and write in someone who could not possibly win simply because I don't like my choices."

I don't think compulsory voting would be the way to go though. It would be impossible to enforce. And would only disenfranchise the lazy who share joe's misguided attitude further. I think voting should still be their choice. But I think they should offer a tax break every 4 years to those who do vote. And I know just where the money will come from. A new tax applied equally to everyone that over a 4 year period will equal the tax break they recieve for voting. So if you vote you break even and if you don't vote you will be doing something for the process besides wasting precious oxygen. And I know a snazzy name for it. V.I.P. or Voter Incentive Program. 50 bucks taxed every year and 200 bucks back for voting? Think that might motivate some?

If you feel that the government favors the wealthy is it any wonder when only the wealthy vote. I have not seen any breakdowns of the numbers but of the 50-60 percent of the population that voted I would hazard a guess that 70-80 percent of those would be considdered wealthy. I would also hazard a guess that the reason we are stuck with such lack luster candidates is the fact that the people who vote vote for them. The people who don't like them don't vote at all making it easier for them to win.

[Joe Fenton]

The solution seems obvious to me - set up governing pools exactly like sequestered jury pools. People are picked at random to serve a fixed length term for various positions, just like jury duty. Mayor duty... sounds funny, but it eliminates many problems.

If a randomly chosen jury is good enough to sentence you to death, it's good enough to handle government duties for a short period of time. It's the ultimate in term limitations with no more pandering to special interest groups. Because they are chosen from the population and sequestered while in office, they are much less likely to be bribed and are up to date on the state of the nation. They don't hang around DC, losing contact with the people and sucking up to special interest groups.

[M7S]

Not voting is a form of boycott.
Correct me if I'm wrong but if not voting is a boycott, it's a boycott against democracy. Does anyone here suggest another system than democracy?

Imho giving a blank vote on the other hand means that you don't support any of the candidates. I'm not sure though if you can do that in USA those odd machines.

Now I have to go to bed. I went up 4 am to be able to watch how the election would turn out over there (my friends thinks I'm crazy :D).

Edit:
If a randomly chosen jury is good enough to sentence you to death, it's good enough to handle government duties for a short period of time.
I'm not sure if I'm breaking the rules by saying this but you've got a ****ed up juridical system. Another reason to vote. ;)

[DAvenger]

Originally posted by neo75903
Well this is my chapter, seeya all over 4 years :) (about this topic)

Yeah. Let's hope 'The Monkey' won't manage to fuck up this world till then.

[Wilbert]

I thought I asked something? closed.