Dual-Layer Exercises

[PeterMac]

I've been experimenting with dual-layer and I'd like to pass on the results of my initial tests.
The burner is a Pioneer 108, the media is RiDisc DVD+R, the stand-alone player is a Pioneer 545, which is extremely tolerant in that it seems to play most things.
Software used is CloneDVD2 2.4.5.4 and Nero 6.3.1.25
Test DVDs were Kill Bill vols 1 and 2 (PAL, R2)

Because I wanted to see what would happen in the event that I didn't want the original order of play or wanted to drop some small titles, the original files of one of the DVDs were processed by CloneDVD2.

This is what I found:

1. After processing by CloneDVD2 and directing the output files to the hard-drive, the layer-break was missing. This was even though DL operation was selected in the application. When I saw this, I assumed that the layer-break would be added back at burn time when the necessary computations were made.
This was not so.
Examination of the burnt disc showed that the whole of the first layer had been burnt and then, when no more space was left, the second layer started. Presumably this was done by the Pioneer 108's firmware rather than by any direction by CloneDVD2's software.
On playback, the Pioneer 545 proceeded smoothly up to the end of the first layer and then froze. It was possible to access material on the second layer via chapter selection or the next/prior buttons, but next to impossible to get at the remainder of the interrupted chapter. On top of all that, the hassle with the controls to continue the movie was an unwelcome intrusion.

2. Burning the second DVD (untouched by CloneDVD2) using Nero brought an opposite problem. Nero does add its own calculated layer-break, but neglects to remove the original break! Unfortunately, the two breaks are not exactly on top of each other, due no doubt to different computational methods or disc size. Whatever, the result is not exactly standard. Who wants two breaks?

3. Now, before you ask, yes, if you process the DVD in CloneDVD2 and then burn it with Nero, you get a single layer-break, properly calculated to share the material equally between the two layers!

4. Finally, the quality: well obviously the picture is as good as the original. I do think though that the media - at least, the media I used - is less robust than single-layer media and that you are more likely to get skips with it. Normally, when I play a commercial DVD on the Pioneer 545 I am unaware of the layer-break. But using roll-your-owns the instance of the break is a perceptible pause of almost one second. I have to qualify that by saying that I was not just lolling back in a chair enjoying the film, I was sitting on top of the system looking very hard for faults, so maybe I'm being over critical.
The other thing is that, up to now I have only burnt DVD-R. This is my first DVD+R and that may have introduced characteristics of which I was unaware.

Hope this helps - with the current costs of DL media, we need all the guidance we can get ;)

-Pete

[alexnoe]

I do think though that the media - at least, the media I used - is less robust than single-layer media and that you are more likely to get skips with itYes it is, because you've used low-quality crap media

[PeterMac]

Quite a sweeping statement.
I've used Ritek for almost 2 years now without a single problem. They're generally acknowledged to be as good as you can get.

Can you let me have the statistics to support your contention?

-P

[alexnoe]

They're generally acknowledged to be as good as you can get.That's an exaggeration. They do, unlike Princo and stuff, work, but that's it. Ritek SL media is not bad (if you don't get bad batches), but it certainly can't beat TY or MCC media. What do you think, why do quite some drives officially support TY and MCC media at higher speeds than certified (like 4x media at 8x and 8x media at 12x), but not Ritek?

And Ritek DL media is terrible. Look at the latest DL media tests in the C'T 21/04:
- not one single drive wrote a Ritek DL disc at acceptable quality
- not one single drive failed on Verbatim DL discs

You can also have a look at the reviews of
LG 4120B, LG 4160B and Pioneer A08 at www.cdrinfo.com. The Ritek DL media discs are always written at terrible or inacceptable quality, whereas Verbatim DL discs always show error rates at the same level as quality SL discs.

[PeterMac]

Hmmm...

Thanks for that.

I haven't read the reviews - I rather wish I had before I bought the Riteks! ;)

At least I didn't buy too many, so I can always get some Verbatims to try. I imagine they're significantly dearer, right?

What about your own experiences with actually burning D-L; any tips, any pitfalls to avoid?

-P

[alexnoe]

- As you have a Pioneer A08, Bitsetting is always enabled for DL media, so you don't need to take care of this
- The Pioneer A08 can write Verbatim 2,4x DL media at 4x speed, without screwing up write quality. No need to wait 45min for a disc to finish.


Avoid:
- Nero. It b0rked one of my DL discs when those things were 14 Euro per disc...I refuse to try again :D

[PeterMac]

Avoid:
- Nero. It b0rked one of my DL discs when those things were 14 Euro per disc...I refuse to try again :D

Yes, I've read bad things about Nero, although my own experience has been reasonable. What is the received wisdom on the best burning software for DL?

-P

[alexnoe]

I'm using DVD Decrypter.

[PeterMac]

I see.

The problem with that method is that you cannot make any alterations first (I assume you're ripping and burning an ISO file).

Might be worth a try though for the occasional DVD that doesn't tell me to clean my teeth and sit up straight before it deigns to play the movie...

-P

[stl]

Thanks for the info,

I'm looking in to buying one of these drives (I'm still using a DVR-103)

In particular, that a Pioneer standalone played a DVD+R DL.

I agree Nero is total crap. The best prog I came across was recordnow max 4. But I doubt that this old prog would recognize any new drive.

The retail A08 package comes with Ulead burnnow (or something like that) has anyone tried this? is it crap? I prefer burning individual AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS folders rather than ISO's.

[PeterMac]

As far as I'm aware, Ulead's Burn.Now is not optimised for DVD movie burning. It can handle DL discs, but only for data storage. It doesn't look as if it knows anything about the AUDIO_TS / VIDEO_TS folders, much less layer-breaks and other exotica. It's probably all right for burning ISOs, but nothing more.

I know we keep cursing poor old Nero, but at the moment I'm unaware of any burning software that will even tackle DL video, never mind make a better fist of it.

If anyone does know of good workmanlike burning software, perhaps they'll let me in on the secret, too?

In the meantime, I have a number of ripped movies on my hard-drive. These were created by DVDDecrypter in File mode. Does anyone know how to turn them into ISO images, as DVDDecrypter seems willing only to address DVD drives, not the hard-drive?

-P

[alexnoe]

mkisofs can make working images from dvd-video content folders, but it won't insert layer breaks...see my signature

[hendrix]

Originally posted by PeterMac
I know we keep cursing poor old Nero, but at the moment I'm unaware of any burning software that will even tackle DL video, never mind make a better fist of it.
Burn with DVD Decrypter...i too have the Pioneer DVR-A08XL/Author with Scenarist output to dvd image and use DVD Decrypter to burn and never had a bad DL yet...the layer break point was were i assigned it..tested on the X-Box, Sony DVC-501D and the DVR-A08XL w/Hollywood+ card and all played fine...only use Mitsubishi(Verbatim) DVD+R(DL) media - also Nero has a problem with layer break points. hope this helps

[PeterMac]

Thanks for that.

I've just done a DVD using Decrypter and I'm trying it now.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I was stuck trying to get my ripped files back into an ISO. I now find that DVDShrink will do the job You have to turn compression off, of course, but point it at the ripped files and it produces the ISO, complete with AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS folders!

However, as with CloneDVD2, the layer-break was removed.

Now, rightly or wrongly, I inferred from the configuration of Decrypter that it would create a new layer-break. Why else have the 'Calculate Optimal' setting? In fact, it didn't, and inspection of the main movie's IFO file shows no break at all. In case I'm missing something, I'm letting it play through right now to see if it sticks anywhere. If it doesn't, then hey! the thing's cracked.

But tell me, why did you specify your own layer-break position? Have you had a bad experience with this 'optimal' thing?

-Pete

[alexnoe]

If you make a DVD with DVD Maestro, then it does insert a layer break into the IFO files, and then you have to tell DVD Decrypter where it is.

'Optimal' should be used with plain data dvds or with iso files where you have an MDS from the original disc as well.

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Optimal will actually scan the vob file and locate the next vobu (nav) packet. It will then position it at that LBA.

Indeed it does not change anything in the ifo, I still dont understand what that discontinuity flag is used for by players. Maybe someone would like to give me an indepth description?! As I've mentioned several times before, that flag is use for things other than what people refer to as the layer break. You cannot reliably look for that flag to find the layer break position.

With enough of a read buffer, the layer switch should not be noticable and as the data is continuous, what's the big deal?!

As a side note, where in the term 'calculate optimal' do you get the idea that it changes IFO files? You have to calculate it because a simple:

get sum of file sizes / 2

is not enough. But I guess even that would be a calculation of sorts!

[alexnoe]

Lightning UK: There are even players whose firmware crashes at the end of Layer 0 if the flag is missing...

[LIGHTNING UK!]

That's just crappy!

The flag doesn't specifically mean L0 ends and L1 starts so I don't get the problem. It's the drive itself that deals with the layer transition and of course it doesnt care what data is actually stored on the disc. The very small glitch in playback caused by swapping layers could just as easily be caused by dirt on the disc, and they all seem to cope with that ok. What make a layer transition so special that they have to use a 'flag' to tell the player software where it is?

Maybe these people should look at designing their players properly.

[PeterMac]

Hi Lightning!

We seem to have two conversations going about the same thing.

I would ask you this though (and please don't think I'm being ironic, I'm just puzzled): why does every commercial disc having a titleset which stretches across both layers include this 'layer-break' flag in the corresponding IFO file?

I'm aware that the discontinuity bit might be pressed into other duties on some DVDs, but by and large it is found where the transition takes place.

Why would it be there if it wasn't needed?

-Pete

[LIGHTNING UK!]

I don't know, that's what I'm asking too!

I don't understand WHY it is needed. I know it's there, but not WHY :)

What special bit of code do these players run on a cell with that flag set, that makes it actually being set that important? Why can't they just run that special bit of code all the time?!

[thensa]

Well after about £200 spent on a combination of media and equipment I think, after reading this post, I've come up with a special formula that works for me :-

1. Run CloneDVD v2 on the VOBS and IFOS strip out the layer break from the IFO's.

2. Check with IFO Edit to ensure the Layer Break has gone.

3. Burn it with Nero 6.6 which then puts a layer break back in.

4. Check with IFO Edit to see it really did put a layer break back in.

5. Check with Standalone player by playing across the layer break.

After much testing this is the only thing that has worked for me, DVDDecrypter with the same source disc did not work for me, even when using the md5 to load the ISO before burning. When I played it back it just locked up at the layer change.

Using steps 1 - 5 produced a flawless backup for me and what suprised me even more was that the layer change itself(usually about 1 second on Samsung HD935) was about twice as fast than with the original and I used a lower quality Ritel DL disc for the burn ??

I would much rather use Decrypter than Nero (dont trust it much) but theres no other way at the moment. LIGHTNING UK the sooner your get your head around this layer break flag/not flag the better. If theres any way we can assist to help you crack it then please let us know. I've spent plenty already on DL discs, a few more quid wont hurt.

PS: burnt with a Pioneer 108

[PeterMac]

Congratulations on achieving a method - and thanks for heads-up.

I've just updated to Nero 6.6 (I had 6.3 previously) so I don't know if that will make a difference. I do note, though, that Nero are currently making a big song and dance about how cute their layer handling is, so at least they have addressed the problem.

Whatever, from my own experiments I have come to this conclusion: the finished DVD must have a layer-break flagged in the appropriate IFO file and that position so flagged must match the point in the VOB where the transition actually takes place. This is in respect of my Pioneer 545 stand-alone; other players may differ.

I think some of the problems I've had result from (say) creating an ISO in Nero, but burning it with Decrypter. I think Decrypter's calculations as to where the transition should be do not necessarily concur with Nero's conclusions. The player then doesn't know where the hell it is and fails to handle the transition smoothly.

The one notable success I've had was by burning with Decrypter an ISO originally created by Decrypter. In this case, the new disc seemed to be - and no doubt was - an exact copy in every way. Unfortunately, there will be times when this is not quite what I want, when I want to remove the usual annoying warnings, messages or change the order of play. This is why I'd like to be able to make a working DVD from files output by CloneDVD2, Shrink or whatever. (Incidentally, if AnyDVD is resident with the 'play main-movie first' option checked, when Decrypter creates the ISO, the ISO will also have that new order - an advantage.)

If anyone wants to read a little more about layer breaks, this little teach-in is interesting:

http://www.gearsoftware.com/LayerBreakPoint.cfm

-Pete

[thensa]

yeah I think the main thing here is to help LIGHTNING UK get to grips with modifying Decrypter to insert the correct flag at the correct point. The link you provided was very informative, maybe its enough to help him sort it out.

[LIGHTNING UK!]

A straight 1:1 copy of an original via ISO read -> iso write modes should be perfect.

Myself and loads of other people have confirmed this. The layer break position is copied exactly.

The thing to remember is that his ONLY works for originals using OTP, or those with PTP where layer 0 is bigger than layer 1 (as that's all DVD+R DL discs allow - because they're all OTP).

I'll see what I can do about reading the discontinuity flag from the IFO files within the ISO image. Of course it wont be down to me if its not on a 16 sector boundary - and there totally useless. I wont make any attempt to edit an ISO during the burn, that's just not my thing.

It would be nicer/easier to just have the program that made the ISO file report where the layer break should be - like how DVD Maestro does. It's the ISO creation program that will (should) do the padding of the file system so that 'first sector in cell' will be on a 16 sector boundary.

[thensa]

A straight 1:1 copy of an original via ISO read -> iso write modes should be perfect.

Unfortunately it has never worked for me that way (decrypter iso read to mds iso write), it locks on the layer change on a standalone.

The title I was testing with was 'The Day After Tomorrow' Region 2 which is also OTP.

I'll see what I can do about reading the discontinuity flag from the IFO files within the ISO image. Of course it wont be down to me if its not on a 16 sector boundary - and there totally useless. I wont make any attempt to edit an ISO during the burn, that's just not my thing.

Thanks :)

I can see why your sure that decrypter ISO read -> decrypter ISO (mds) write should work, its 1:1 so whats the problem ?

Strange why it doesnt work for me :( . Do you have any idea what Neros Layer Magic bollocks is supposed to do over and above Decrypter ?

TheNSA..

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Where it failed for you, were you using Ritek DL or Verbatim DL discs?

I assume you're on the latest (1.14?) firmware? Burning at 2.4x ?

I promise you it works, not sure what the problem was for you on that occassion.

If you look at the layer break stuff shown in ISO Read mode (i.e. 'Last Physical Sector in Layer 0:') you'll see they are identical on the original and copy. There is no better way of doing it!

[thensa]

I was using Ritek DL discs in both cases where it succeeded with Nero and falied in Decrypter. Yes I was on 1.14 and burnt at 2.4x.

I agree it should work. Ill buy another Verb disc and some more riteks and give it another go and let you know how it goes.

[LIGHTNING UK!]

Assuming you still have your expensive coasters, look at the details in ISO mode. Compare them and let me know if they're different.

I dont suppose you have, but if you happen to have the log of you burning, I'd like to see it. Same goes for the next one you do Read -> Write on.

[thensa]

Non Working = DVD Decrypter ISO Read -> DVD Decrypter MDS WritePIONEER DVD-RW DVR-108 1.14 (ATA)
Current Profile: DVD+R DL

Disc Information:
Status: Complete
Erasable: No
Sessions: 1
Sectors: 3,469,616
Size: 7,105,773,568 bytes
Time: 771:03:41 (MM:SS:FF)
Supported Write Speeds: 2.4x, 4x

DVD+R DL Boundary Information:
L0 Data Zone Capacity: 1,765,808
Changeable: No

Physical Format Information (ADIP):
Disc ID: RITEK-D01-01
Book Type: DVD+R DL
Part Version: 1
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,580,607
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 2,283,519

Physical Format Information (Last Recorded):
Disc ID: RITEK-D01-01
Book Type: DVD-ROM
Part Version: 1
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,518,607
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 1,962,415

Working = DVD Decrypter File Read -> CloneDVD v2 Remove layer break -> Nero Drag n Drop VIDEO_TS folder burnPIONEER DVD-RW DVR-108 1.14 (ATA)
Current Profile: DVD+R DL

Disc Information:
Status: Complete
Erasable: No
Sessions: 1
Sectors: 3,356,608
Size: 6,874,333,184 bytes
Time: 745:56:58 (MM:SS:FF)
Supported Write Speeds: 2.4x, 4x

DVD+R DL Boundary Information:
L0 Data Zone Capacity: 1,710,880
Changeable: No

Physical Format Information (ADIP):
Disc ID: RITEK-D01-01
Book Type: DVD+R DL
Part Version: 1
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,580,607
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 2,283,519

Physical Format Information (Last Recorded):
Disc ID: RITEK-D01-01
Book Type: DVD-ROM
Part Version: 1
Disc Size: 120mm
Maximum Read Rate: Not Specified
Number of Layers: 2
Track Path: Opposite Track Path (OTP)
Linear Density: 0.293 um/bit
Track Density: 0.74 um/track
First Physical Sector of Data Area: 196,608
Last Physical Sector of Data Area: 16,515,455
Last Physical Sector in Layer 0: 1,907,487

[LIGHTNING UK!]

And a post of the original discs.... ?

[thensa]

erm.. welll... erm.. I lent the source disc to a friend for a while so I cant show that for quite some time :rolleyes:

[Wensleydale]

I have a lot of friends.

[thensa]

and they hardly ever return your originals dvd right ? :)

[Wensleydale]

Hehe that's right! Thieving bastards! :)

[LIGHTNING UK!]

lol... ok, I see where you're coming from ;)